December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

NSA in the WSJ
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: The Wall Street Journal, Tuesday March 22, 1994, p. B1 TECHNOLOGY Clipper Chip Is Your Fried, NSA Contends NSA Seeks to Dispel Misgivings of Public About Clipper Chip By Bob Davis Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal. FORT MEADE, Md. --- The National Security Agency wants everyone to know that its new computer-security system will protect individual privacy. But as the spy agency knows, hardly anyone believes that. Critics fear the government will use the NSA technology, designed in secret, to spy on Americans. The project "is a focal point for the distrust of government," acknowledges Clinton Brooks, the NSA scientist who led the so-called Clipper Chip project, in the agency's first interview on the subject. The Clinton administration last month adopted the NSA plan for a series of computer chips that would protect telephones and computers. Use of the technology would be voluntary. Federal agencies would adopt it first, and public use is expected to spread gradually. Under the plan, cryptographic "keys" that could unscramble the communications would be split in two and held separately at the Treasury Department and the National Institute of Standards and Technology. That way, law-enforcement agents could tap the communications by getting court authorization to obtain the two halves. The idea is to boost security but to keep the technology out of the hands of criminals and spies. The NSA is the world's biggest eaves-dropper. Equipped with the latest in super-computers and satellite receivers, it targets communications by foreign governments. The agency shuns publicity but agreed to the interview to explain its role in the Clipper controversy and try to dispel fears. Mr. Brooks, a 26-year veteran of the NSA, says the project began in 1989 and cost more than $2.5 million. He says the NSA is consumed with what it calls the "equities problem" --- how to balance privacy rights against the needs of law enforcement, national security and private industry. In 1989, he and Raymond Kammer, deputy director of NIST, began discussions about how to improve computer security without making it impenetrable to police. NIST is a Commerce Department agency with formal responsibility for unclassified computer security. Before the interview, Mr. Brooks takes a look around a small cryptographic museum just outside the NSA's gates. He stands before an exhibit of Enigma machines, used by the Germans during World War II to encrypt messages --- and later broken by Allied intelligence. Enigma started as a commercial product; recognizing its military value, the Nazis pulled it off the market. "That was the concern we're wrestling with today," Mr. Brooks says --- commercial encryption technology becoming so good that U.S. spy agencies can't crack it. In 1989, NIST and the NSA put together an eight-person team, split evenly between the agencies, to quietly work out security concepts. The team decided against using a weak encryption code --- "Roman Numeral One is that it had to be good security," says Mr. Brooks. And it also rejected a so-called trapdoor approach, in which the computer code would be designed so it would have a weak spot --- a trapdoor --- that federal agencies could enter via computer to tap the communications. Someone else could discover the trapdoor, they decided. The team settled on a system with a powerful encryption formula, called an algorithm, and encryption keys that would be held by outsiders. Law- enforcement agencies could get copes of the keys when they needed to bug the conversations. The toughest decision, both Mr. Brooks and Mr. Kammer say, was to keep the algorithm, dubbed the Skipjack, secret. That meant the public wouldn't know for sure whether the NSA had inserted a trapdoor or some other eavesdropping device. "It would defeat the purpose [of the project] if we gave the knowledge of how the algorithm worked" to the public, says the 56-year-old Mr. Brooks. "It was going to have to be kept classified." Otherwise, he explains, engineers could use the algorithm to design computer-security systems that the government's encryption keys couldn't unlock. By 1990, he says, as many as 30 NSA "cryptomathematicians" and other employees were working to perfect the algorithm and other features. A year later, the NSA launched what it called the Capstone Project to build the algorithm into a computer chip. The NSA contracted with Mykotronx Inc., a small company in Torrance, Calif., to do much of the development. By September 1992, the NSA was confident the system would work. None too early for the NSA. Earlier that year, Mr. Brooks says, American Telephone & Telegraph Co. informed the NSA that it wanted to sell a phone using a popular encryption technology to scramble conversations. The NSA balked. "We said it probably wouldn't get an export license from this country," Mr. Brooks says. Instead, AT&T was told of the Capstone work and agreed to use the technology if it became a federal standard and was exportable, he says. The NSA then took some of the functions of the Capstone chip and tailored it to phone equipment, calling the resulting product the Clipper Chip. For computers, Capstone was encased on a computer card that became known as Tessera. The the Bush administration, enmeshed in a re-election bid, never pushed Capstone. So shortly after the election, National-security heavyweights importuned the Clinton transition team to move quickly on Capstone. Just weeks after the inauguration, the new administration's national-security team was debating the NSA proposal and in April announced to the public that it would adopt the scheme. Last month, the administration gave the final go-ahead --- despite withering criticism from industry. Vice President Gore called encryption a "law and order issue." NIST's Mr. Kammer says the new administration was also trying to line up backing among national-security officials to liberalize export controls on computer equipment and other high-tech gear. The high-tech industry was stunned at the decision. David Peyton, vice president of the Information Technology Association of America, a trade group of computer companies, says the scheme will dangerously centralize power in the federal government and will limit exports. James Bidzos, president of a computer-security firm, RSA Data Security Inc., goes further. He posted a letter on the Internet computer network arguing that Clipper may be the "visible portion of a large-scale covert operation on U.S. soil by NSA." Nonsense, responds Mr. Brooks, who says he is distressed by the "emotionalism" of the arguments. "The only reason we're involved is that we have the best cryptomathematicians in the country." --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

2 1

Important Financial Information...
by 68864320＠canma.dyn.ml.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>> PAY OFF ALL YOUR BILLS! <<< Including your mortgage in 3-7 years... Using your current income! People have become slaves to their debts. It's a never ending circle of go to work - pay the bills - go to work... >>> NOW THERE IS A WAY OUT! <<< A proven system used by more than 150,000 people in the USA and Canada. Find Out How - With Our FREE Information You have nothing to lose (except your debts) by requesting the FREE information! For immediate FREE information, send any message to freeinfo6(a)answerme.com, and our automatic response E-mail address will send you a FREE report within minutes. Get started on your debt-free journey today. Also, you'll learn how you can... JOIN OUR TEAM & EARN A FANTASTIC RESIDUAL INCOME! ********************************************************************** If you would like to learn about advertising your own product or service on the internet then please visit this Web site: http://www.amv-inc.com ********************************************************************** If you wish to be removed from this mailing list, please write us at: remove(a)alderney.dyn.ml.org Thank you. **************************************************************************

1 0

This List--Public, Private, or Other?
by tcmay＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have a few more things to say on the question Hal raised: is this list privately owned, publically owned, or is it something else? * It's effectively under the control of the folks mentioned (Huhges, Gilmore, Daniel, etc.), but.... * anyone with access to the mailing list names (cf. majordomo) could "invite" subscribers to try another list. Detweiler tried something like this with his "cypherwonks" group. The point: the "list" could move around. * sufficiently bizarre management practices on the List, such as if Eric decided to really crown himself King, would cause folks to leave. The point: the "list" is not permanent. * anyone trying to create their own Cypherpunks-type list would have to deal with inertia, head starts (by us), and so on. The point: sometimes inertia wins. In different words, the list exists as an "emergent phenomenon," like a popular trend or a fad. It's "official" existence is not crucial, as that could evaporated, change, etc. The hundreds of subscribers (can it really be 700?) find this list presumably more convenient than forming their own list, recruiting members, and achieving some critical mass. Call it a "Schelling point" in cyberspace, a meeting place. (A Schelling point is named after the game theorist, and can best be quickly described by an example: if Hal Finney and I agree to meet in Washington, D.C., without making further plans as to place, where might we meet? The Air and Space Museum? The base of the Washington Monument, the EFF offices? A limited number of points are likely to be independently picked by us--these are Schelling points for us. Prices are often Schelling points.) If enough of us "moved" to another list, or another machine, then that's "where" the Cypherpunks list would move to (it didn't happen with "Cypherwonks," for various and obvious reasons). The concept of "ownership" is thus tenuous. I would liken it to the "ownership" by a store of its customer base. Fry's Electronics "owns" the hacker-technophile customers it attracts in such throngs throughout the Bay Area, and no one (except the State, of course) can come in and command them to change their policies. But Fry's must be careful to not lose its customer base, which could easily happen (and will eventually, in all likelihood). To wrap it up: Cyberspace ownership has more similarities to the voluntary asssociations desscribed here--customer bases, clubs, subscriptions to magazines, etc.--than to conventional ideas of "public" and "private" property ownership. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

1 0

Re: THOUGHT: Internation
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Jamie Lawrence "....... I just would like to know if those who object to this object on grounds of practicality or ideology (in other words, for example do you object because you don't believe everyone is *entitled* to a job......." having a job = making a living using $ "a living": having an idea of a kind of life to live pre-requisite: having a purpose in life requisite: arranging your life to realize (achieve) that purpose following-through on the work required adjusting things around you to suit your interest/sensibilities It would be impractical for another person to deliver all of these things for me at their expense, when they should be spending time on their own dreams & plans. It does not represent an ideal method to me to have my lifestyle delivered to me, while aiming to be an independent, autonomous individual with a mind of my own. Otherwise I would be obliged to serve the purposes & interests of those who supply the means, the job, the money, on their schedule; that is, whenever they could think of something for me to "do" on the entitled job list. Blanc

1 0

Re: Economic assumptions
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:04 PM 04/04/94 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >(If the answer is "No fees, no quotas, use as much as you can," then I >maintain it will be relatively easy to continue to flood sites. Flood >them worse than anything we've seen so far, in fact. I'll go out on a >limb and speculate that cheap delivery makes a fee schedule of some >sort _more important_, not less important. Of course, this is up to >the service providers; anyone who wishes to provded a free bandwidth >link should be free to do so!) Obviously it doesn't map directly, but phones can provide a good example. people can phone-bomb people, but it gets boring. Most prank callers ger sick of it by the time they hit highschool. There are cases of prank callers getting scary but these are pretty few and fall between. You may say that the difference is that I have to have to be on the phone to do this, which doesn't apply to computers- well, I can, using a Macintosh and phone set up a pretty good combination war dialer/recorded message to bomb everyone in my local access range. How often does this happen? and what would happen to me if I did this? *There's* the key. You slap people's hand for this kinda thing. If I send a 200 meg binary file to a site once every 15 seconds for a couple of hours, I get in trouble. Easy. People talking about the future with computers always talk about ways to make things impossible for someone to do- this has never worked in the real world, and won't in the virual one. You just make it not worth doing. >I can think of certain malicious persons--and I expect more of them in >the future, not fewer--who would mount "denial of service" attacks on >sites they didn't like by turning the firehoses of data on them. See above- If I mount a denial of service attack on you via phone- tell my computer to call you once every 15 seconds, forever, how long would it take to get the cops to pay me a visit? About as long as it took you to find a phone that isn't tied up by me ;) >TANSTAAFL--There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Link I still agree- Whoever ends up standing to profit from this ain't gonna give it way... >--Tim May

1 0

Re: Economic assumptions
by fnerd＠smds.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Eric says- > I just read (after a reference by Duncan Frissell on this list) an > essay by Nobel-prize economist R. H. Coase. The essay is called "The > Nature of the Firm". I have it in a collection called _The Firm, the > Market, and the Law_, published by University of Chicago Press. ... > -- There is a cost to using the price mechanism. > -- Not all economic allocations use the price mechanism. > -- Firms exist because they have lower transaction costs than the market. There's a piece by Kevin Kelly called "Network Economics" in the latest Whole Earth Review, about how better communications tech and changed business practices lower transaction costs and (along with competition and the pace of things these days) are pushing down the optimum size of businesses. -fnerd quote me - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `We want information.' `You won't get it!' `By hook or by crook, we will.' -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a aKxB8nktcBAeQHabQP/d7yhWgpGZBIoIqII8cY9nG55HYHgvt3niQCVAgUBLMs3K ui6XaCZmKH68fOWYYySKAzPkXyfYKnOlzsIjp2tPEot1Q5A3/n54PBKrUDN9tHVz 3Ch466q9EKUuDulTU6OLsilzmRvQJn0EJhzd4pht6hSnC1R3seYNhUYhoJViCcCG sRjLQs4iVVM= =9wqs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Electronic Purse Press Release (Originally Re: VISA's digital cash)
by Christopher Allen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 1:25 PM 4/3/94 -0400, Pat Farrell wrote: >Today's (April 3) Washington Post business section has an article on >a consortium of VISA and banks working on a digital cash card. > >Did I sleep thru the messages, or has the list been scooped? > >Basic story is that the card is a smartcard, designed to be reused, >and suitable for small quantities. Nothing in the article about what would >prevent it from storing large amounts. No serious technical discussion >either, but I infer that it is an online cash card. > >Pat > >Pat Farrell Grad Student pfarrell(a)gmu.edu >Department of Computer Science George Mason University, Fairfax, VA >Public key availble via finger #include <standard.disclaimer> I was sent this by a friend today. It is the original press release: PR NEWSWIRE 03/22 VISA ESTABLISHES INTERNATIONAL CONSORTIUM FOR ELECTRONIC PURSE SPECIFICATIONS SAN FRANCISCO, March 22 /PRNewswire/ -- Visa today formed an international consortium of market leaders in the consumer payments industry to develop common specifications for a new way to pay -- an "Electronic Purse," a card with a micro chip that can be used instead of cash and coins for everything from vending machines to public transportation. The Electronic Purse would consist of a micro-chip embedded in a credit card, debit card, or stand alone card to store value electronically. The card would replace cash and coins for small-ticket purchases (less than U.S. $10), such as gasoline stations, pay phones, road/bridge tolls, video games, school cafeterias, fast food restaurants, convenience stores, and cash lanes at supermarkets. Cardholders can "reload" the micro-chip and control the amount of value stored in the card's memory. The Electronic Purse provides cardholders with the security and convenience of carrying less cash and coins, eliminating the need for exact change. Many participants in this worldwide effort are currently pilot testing electronic purse products, additional pilots are expected in late 1995. Joining forces with Visa to develop international technical specifications for the Electronic Purse are: Banksys; Electronic Payment Services, Inc., (EPS); Financial Information Systems Center, (FISC); Groupement des Cartes Bancaires, (CB); NationsBank Corporation; Sociedad Espanola de Medios de Pago, (SEMP); Sociedade Interbancaria de Servicos, S.A., (SIBS); and Wachovia Corporation. To ensure worldwide representation, limited additional payment systems that have invested energies in open-market electronic purse projects, will be invited to join. In addition, Visa will form a parallel group with technology companies to ensure the specifications support low-cost, efficient production of necessary equipment. "The goal of our combined efforts is to lead the market into the next frontier of payment processing -- the automation of cash and coins," said Ed Jensen, president and chief executive officer, Visa International. "The highly complementary capabilities of the participating companies will allow us to address issues for all aspects of smart card-based electronic purse solutions, including the cards themselves, point-of-sale systems, networks and back-end interchange and settlement systems." This announcement reflects Visa's commitment to providing superior, convenient payment services to its member financial institutions who serve consumers and merchants around the globe. The consortium was formed in response to member requests that Visa take the lead in facilitating the addition of an electronic purse to existing credit and debit cards, as well as the introduction of a stand alone card. Visa will leverage its global brand presence by teaming up with strategic partners to develop common standards. "The most critical step in making this concept a global market reality is the definition of open standards that can be shared among all participants," said Wesley Tallman, president, Visa Products and Information Services. "Recognizing that important domestic electronic purse developments are underway, the consortium will leverage the expertise of all participants. Group 'knowledge sharing,' especially with our European participants that have made significant advancements in the chip card arena, will facilitate the development of a specification that is relevant to markets worldwide." The technological specifications will govern the standards needed to establish an infrastructure that supports electronic purse payments. The worldwide market for automating cash transactions remains virtually untapped. According to the Bank for International Settlement, consumer cash transactions in the U.S. alone exceed 300 billion per year. By contrast, bank-facilitated consumer transactions, such as credit and debit cards, checks, and wire transfers total only 60 billion per year. As these figures indicate, there is a vast market potential for automating cash transactions. "EPS has been investing significant resources to develop smart card solutions since 1991," stated David Van Lear, chairman and chief executive officer of Electronic Payment Services, Inc. "Combining the resources of these industry leaders will accelerate market acceptance." Just as the standard operating environments have fueled the growth of the personal computer industry, the specifications that emerge from this collective effort will provide the essential framework to ensure compatibility, reduce development time and cost, and open up the market for others. International payment system participants included in this cooperative effort are: Banksys -- based in Brussels, Belgium, is a leading European specialist in electronic funds transfer (EFT) and payment security. Banksys operates the automated teller machine (ATM) and point-of-sale (POS) network on behalf of all card issuing banks in Belgium. Besides Belgium, 10 other countries are equipped with the Banksys system. Banksys is entrusted with the development of the Belgian Electronic Purse project, with pilot testing expected to begin in December 1994. Electronic Payment Services, Inc.(EPS) -- based in Wilmington, Del., is the leading electronic funds transfer company in the United States with an annual transaction volume of 1.7 billion. EPS is the holding company for BUYPASS Corporation and MONEY ACCESS SERVICE INC., operator of the MAC(R) network. Financial Information Systems Center (FISC) -- based in Taipei, Taiwan, is a government organization that supports electronic purse initiatives in that country. Through its members, FISC has issued 80 thousand integrated circuit cards and has installed more than one thousand point-of-sale systems with integrated circuit card readers. Groupement des Cartes Bancaires (CB) -- based in Paris, is the country's payment cards organization that has succeeded in launching the world's largest integrated circuit card program, with more than 22 million cards in circulation generating 2.2 billion transactions per year. NationsBank Corporation -- headquartered in Charlotte, N.C., is the third largest banking company in the United States with approximately $158 billion in assets, more than 1,900 retail banking centers in nine states and the District of Columbia, and consumer offices in 33 states. NationsBank is a financial services company providing products and services nationally and internationally to individuals, businesses, corporations, institutional investors and government agencies. Sociedad Espanola de Medios de Pago (SEMP) -- based in Madrid, SEMP is a sister company of Visa Espana, a group member of Visa banks in Spain. SEMP operates Sermepa, the card processing company of Visa Espana. Sociedade Interbancaria de Servicos, S.A., (SIBS) -- based in Lisbon, Portugal, is the country's leading bank payments company which provides electronic clearing services and operates the national Multibanco ATM and EFT/POS networks. As an extension to its service offerings, SIBS, is introducing the Multibanco Electronic Purse, (MEP). Visa International -- headquartered in the United States, is the world's leading consumer payments system with more than 333 million cards issued, more than 11 million acceptance locations, and the largest global ATM network. Wachovia Corporation -- with dual headquarters in Atlanta, and Winston-Salem, N.C., is one of the United States' leading debit card issuers and provides credit card services to three million cardholders nationwide. /NOTE TO EDITORS: In December 1993 Visa International, MasterCard International and Europay announced an agreement to form a joint working group to develop a common set of technical specifications for the integration of microprocessor chips in payment cards -- commonly known as "Integrated Circuit," "Chip," and "Smart" cards. The electronic currency specifications referenced in this release will enable the electronic purse application to be added to the integrated circuit cards./ /CONTACT: Albert Coscia of Visa, 415-432-2039/ 09:05 EST PR NEWSWIRE 03/28 VISA TECHNOLOGY GROUP SUPPORTS ELECTRONIC PURSE SPECIFICATIONS SAN FRANCISCO, March 28 /PRNewswire/ -- Visa today announced the formation of a technology group of international manufacturers to support the adaptation of specifications for a variety of technologies that will facilitate the issuance and acceptance of the "Electronic Purse" -- a payment card that stores value electronically and is designed to replace cash and coins for a wide range of low-value (under U.S. $10) consumer payments. The technology group will work with Visa who recently formed an international consortium of payment systems that will develop common specifications for Electronic Purse programs. Because plans are underway for the card to be used globally in a variety of venues -- including, gas/petrol stations, grocery stores, convenience stores, fast food restaurants, school cafeterias, and for such routine items as telephone calls from pay phones, road/bridge tolls and video games -- a number of technologies required to support card acceptance in global markets will be examined by the group. The first suppliers to join the international technology group are VeriFone, Inc., the leading global provider of point-of-sale transaction systems, and Gemplus, SCA, the world's leading manufacturer of smart cards. VeriFone and Gemplus have formed a joint venture, called VeriGem, to pursue electronic purse opportunities. To ensure worldwide representation, additional technology leaders who have invested energies in electronic purse applications will be invited to join the group. In addition to acceptance technologies, "loading" systems that enable cardholders to restore currency value into the micro chip will also be analyzed. Automated Teller Machines (ATMs) are expected to play an important role in loading value into the electronic purse. Future loading methods, such as specialized devices located at merchant locations or in the home, will also be explored. Operating both the largest international consumer payment network, VisaNet, and the world's largest ATM network puts Visa in a unique position to lead this global effort. "As with all emerging technologies, consultation with suppliers responsible for physically implementing the technology is critical to ensuring the viability of the product design," said Wesley Tallman, president, Visa Products and Information Services. "As market leaders in the payment systems field, all of those who have joined us in this initiative are truly partners in paving this 'express lane' of the electronic payment superhighway." Tallman emphasized that the technology group will be charged with ensuring that the specifications developed by the consortium support low-cost, efficient production of necessary systems and equipment. This group approach has been a key tool in support of Visa's product and market development efforts. In December 1992, Visa formed a manufacturer's group to support development efforts for security specifications of integrated circuits on payment cards. Still active today, this group lends critical on-going support and expertise to Visa's chip card efforts. Participants in this international group include: Bull, CPS (France); Gemplus, (France); Giesecke and Devrient (Germany); Schlumberger Industries (France); and Toshiba Corporation (Japan). Visa expects and welcomes the participation of these and other technology partners in the electronic purse effort. Hatim Tyabji, chairman, president and chief executive officer of VeriFone, agreed with the need for a supplier's group that would lend systems expertise to this effort. "Establishing worldwde specifications is the essential first step in the global standardization of the electronic purse, uniting all industry participants on a common playing field with a common set of rules. The endorsement and support of the electronic purse by Visa, its member banks and leading worldwide payment systems send a strong message to the industry -- the electronic purse is no longer merely a possibility, but a real market direction," said Tyabji. "With their high storage capacity, programmability and increasing affordability, smart cards are now poised to move beyond specialized applications and become a truly universal payment medium," said Dr. Marc Lassus, president and chief executive officer of Gemplus. "We share the consortium's vision of the electronic purse, and are excited about helping to bring speed, reliability and efficiency of smart card-based electronic cash to markets around the globe." Visa International, headquartered in San Francisco, California, is the world's leading consumer payments system with more than 333 million cards issued, more than 11 million acceptance locations, and the largest global ATM network. VeriFone, Inc., based in Redwood City, California, is a leading global provider of Transaction Automation solutions used to deliver payment processing and other transaction services to various retail market segments, as well as the healthcare and government benefits market. The company has more than 30 facilities located throughout Asia, Europe and the United States. To date, VeriFone has shipped more than 3.4 million Transaction Automation systems, which have been installed in more than 70 countries. Net revenues in 1993 were U.S. $258.9 million. Gemplus Card International, based in Gemenos, France, is the leading worldwide manufacturer of smart cards. Gemplus' cards are used for secure transactions in public and cellular telephone, banking, pay TV, transportation, healthcare and defense applications. The company has three manufacturing facilities: two near Marseilles, France, and one near Stuttgart, Germany. Current Gemplus production exceeds 14 million cards per month. The company has direct sales offices in 12 countries and a distribution network covering an additional 50 countries worldwide. The company's 1993 revenues were U.S. $130 million. NOTE: Gemplus is a registered trademark of Gemplus Card International. VeriFone is a registered trademark of VeriFone, Inc. Visa is a registered trademark of Visa International, Inc. /NOTE TO EDITORS: On March 22, 1994, Visa announced the formation of an international consortium to develop worldwide technical specifications for the Electronic Purse. The supplier's group discussed in this release is a complementary effort, serving Visa in a consultative or advisory capacity. /CONTACT: Albert Coscia of Visa, 415-432-2039/ 08:45 EST ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ..Christopher Allen Consensus Development Corporation.. ..<consensus(a)netcom.com> 4104-24th Street #419.. .. San Francisco, CA 94114-3615.. .. o415/647-6383 f415/647-6384.. ..Mosaic/World-Wide-Web Front Door: .. ..ftp://netcom7.netcom.com/pub/consensus/www/ConsensusFrontDoor.html ..

2 1

Re: This List--Public, Private, or Other?
by Hal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I can find a lot more to agree with in Tim's clarification of his views on ownership of cyberspace: > In different words, the list exists as an "emergent phenomenon," like > a popular trend or a fad. It's "official" existence is not crucial, as > that could evaporate, change, etc. > > [...] > > To wrap it up: Cyberspace ownership has more similarities to the > voluntary asssociations desscribed here--customer bases, clubs, > subscriptions to magazines, etc.--than to conventional ideas of > "public" and "private" property ownership. > > --Tim May Getting back to the original discussion, though, I think the point remains that such a tenuous and abstract form of ownership does not serve as a good foundation for a model of cyberspace as private property. Cyberspace, in my view, is essentially a conversation. Its value comes from the interplay between different people who contribute, each bringing their own expertise and points of view. It seems odd to me for someone to lay claims to the ownership of the conversation, especially someone who is not participating. One problem in thinking about these issues is focussing too closely on cur- rent software in the form of mailing lists and usenet. Already newer forms of communication such as IRC, MUDs, etc. are breaking out of these molds. Other possibilities include more fluid communications models where organization is provided by links between messages. In such a system, there would be no "cypherpunks list" as such; rather, messages on the kinds of topics we find interesting would be linked together in various ways, with side ties to messages on related topics as well. Who would "own" this kind of cyberspace? One possible unambiguous answer is to simply say that people own their own words, and to leave it at that. In that sense nobody owns the cp list; rather, each poster owns his postings. This is pretty uncontroversial, I think. But even then the value of a posting depends heavily on the context in which it appears, and this simple ownership model does not particularly capture that. Because of these considerations, I think cyberspace is not really subject to the kinds of ownership and control that we associate with private property. Look at the Extropians list as an example. They try to say that the list is private property and feel free to kick people off. But sometimes people get disgusted with their autocratic practices and leave. The list ends up losing value. The more they tighten their iron fist of ownership the more individuals slip out of their grasp, to paraphrase noted cyberspace pundit Princess Leia. (I say this not to disparage members of that list, which has a lot of talented people, but because to me it is a good example of the mis- application of the idea of private property.) My model of the ultimate future of cyberspace emphasizes selectivity and filtering of a huge corpus of messages, articles, essays, debates, etc. The hard part is going to be picking out what is interesting to you, and making your contributions in such a way that interested people see them. I really don't think our current infrastructure of mailing lists and usenet does a very good job of this, and I hope that in the future better approaches will be possible. It's not clear what role ownership will play in that system. Hal

2 1

Re: Electronic Purse Press Release (Originally Re: VISA's digital cash)
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Unlike the Natwest scheme, I don't see anything in here about anonymity. Want to bet that VISA's system allows tracking of purchases? G

1 0

PHILL ZIMMERMAN ARRESTED [NOT]
by a2＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >>The Zimmerman prank---I'm sure not funny for him---hardens my line >>further against anonymity online. > You can't get rid of anonymity such as this without also getting rid > of pseudonymity. Eric argues simply that you can't get rid of annonymity, and he is correct in the strict logic of his aguement against the current technological background. What neither of you discuss is your actual concern, which is that of having some way to rapidly access the factual content of a message. Instead of addressing that problem, you rail against anonymity. In current discourse one often sees symbolic or subsitute issues being discussed, so that the underlying discourd is obscured, ignored, and unresolved. Lions that stalk shadows remain hungry. -a2

1 0