December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Report on UN conferen
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf(a)mindspring.co> wrote reg. "illegal immigrants": > > In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given > > constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and > > bussed across the border. > > And what would be wrong with this? > Not a damned thing. While in this country they are in the act of > committing a crime. Once they have been deported they have > stopped committing the crime and then they can plead to appear > in court. It used to be, that people are "felons under an increasing number of laws". Now we've congressed to an "increasing number of felons regardless of what they do" (their "crime" is being from "other side" of the pencil-lines, that the statists have drawn on their papers). Even the "freedom-loving", no-boundaries etc. Cypherpunks fall over those imaginery "border-lines", without having it ever dawn on them, that *everything* done now to "illegal immigrants" will one day soon be extended to the government-issued passport/digital VeriSign-Tax-ID bearing "Americans" as well. (Please refer to the "War on Drugs" for proof of patterns.) In fact, it's being done already. The systems developed to "track down illegal aliens" can track ANYBODY for that matter. AnybodyHomeMonger

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Re: Seeing Both Sides
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Robert Hettinga wrote: >Concord is clearly proof that Britain didn't understand that they >couldn't control America anymore and acted on that misinformation. It >was *their* problem, as the revolution bore out. Britain would probably have been capable of controlling America had France not intervened. France provided desperately needed powder and money to the revolutionaries. During the siege of Boston it was seriously proposed that bow and arrows be employed due to powder shortages. Spears were actually prepared for use! France also provided officers to staff the poorly trained and organized American armies, troops, and even a navy. The final victory at Yorktown was largely a French operation, for example. Here is Richard N. Rosenfeld's take on it from "American Aurora": Page 418: "There are approximately 32,000 French soldiers and sailors at Yorktown, four to six times the number of George Washington's army, and more than twice, if not three times, the number of all Americans at Yorktown, including militia. Indeed, there are many more French soldiers on the ground than American Continentals. The entire blockading force at sea is French." Page 419: "Of French and American forces which encircle Charles Cornwallis at Yorktown, the naval part of this circle consists strictly of French warships (more than thirty) and sailors (nineteen thousand!). America has no warships in this naval blockade." Page 419: "Orchestrating the siege at Yorktown is strictly a matter for the French. Washington has no experience in siege warfare. The French perfected the art. Rochambeau has taken part in fourteen sieges! General Lebigne, the Chevalier Du Portail, and other French officers and engineers take charge of siege operations." Page 420: "Two French soldiers die for each American death at Yorktown. Two French soldiers are wounded for each American wound at Yorktown. French casualties exceed 250." Page 421: "British General Charles O'Hara, acting on behalf of General Charles Cornwallis (who has pleaded illness), attempts to surrender Cornwallis' (sic) sword to French Commander in Chief General the Comte de Rochambeau, but Rochambeau magnanimously refuses to accept the surrender weapon and directs the British general to George Washington." Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNHnGVJaWtjSmRH/5AQH3hgf+LcvSRiufKxypdjVEXn5vbMa1Ob2IUfyY qSklLDEdYlRP2iOtl1dsLT/XIXaabo6F8lkAVqBXnXffiLd5ewzWs51jI9HEeoMa gtlfgUS49fxBeLeaojen1VVLvr4zkVWjATmspNk1SRu2l6Arc/3KgwPeYgX0A9+V 5fqguVO/frV4BH6wqnVyuKosO2DXoP8njVfjwuTybwO1yO1BQ4+EtgW1m6jkXIwE RjSZsGS7+KK2Ywu9eGWdC2Y0sOPG6k9zy/4zmm+xlttocYx75ixwCwYNWJihNfPe /uT8emxWak0aPAAynug6ZGPU3CXdRZ3JsWKB6a2s3kVgGiIQ2oLxrg== =ZZoe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Violence and Depravity
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A Noncom To Be Named Later wrote: >Monty Cantsin wrote: >>Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, >money, and energy. > >I disagree. I've removed the discussion regarding McVeigh's involvement. It is entirely possible he is an Oswald. I simply do not know. However, my discussion was really intended to consider the morality of war and to point out that McVeigh's alleged actions and alleged values are not far removed from those exercised by governmentally sponsored warriors. If you like, change all the names and call it a thought problem. >Consider that if this action was meant to revenge or commemorate the >Waco massacre, it achieved the opposite goal. However, if this was >the work of agents-provocateur, it worked beautifully. For the sake of discussion, let's say that the Oklahoma City bombing was the act of provocateurs hoping to increase the power and authority of the U.S. Federal government. It is the case that the use of violence has been applied to this goal successfully many times in the past. This certainly does call into question my claim that "Violence is, in nearly every case, a poor investment of time, money, and energy." Your observation and my claim are actually not inconsistent if you consider that I do not consider increasing the power and authority of most governments as a good thing. Let's expand the discussion to war. If one considers it desirable to: 1. increase taxes, 2. to waste vast resources, 3. to kill large numbers of civilians indiscriminately or methodically, 4. to kill large numbers of conscripts, 5. to destroy the land, 6. to create millions of people who will live the rest of their lives in post combat nightmares, 7. to lay the seeds for future wars, 8. to create thousands, or even millions, of orphans, 9. to cause food shortages and disease, 10. and to traumatize human society, then violence in the form of war is a good investment. Not too many people see this as desirable. I still maintain that in nearly every case, if one is intent on pursuing a worthwhile goal, it will not be attained through the use of violence. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNHoSgpaWtjSmRH/5AQG+FQf/TRMgXwhH3nlJ27EMupdSxZoIwWQQRdkn g0E5PjVaB7E6xHuUpq+fKW7zqzm9egIEPa2aQxthXkghjiT+7yDZgkeLlbZ6NCs3 UtUTQUo57uHPHioojwI9Q+d2ENG+QTLIGHeaoOVDHPzMATffFCZ1B6qdBcjdHaJ3 BnxBviPffrfAMsl1C4foOTSrIonKKd74ad0j2vCefGN3w8c71RKilrTBFZfVEoD1 gKG+Dn8u4ea83QNLOR7zuJf8Zwsas9aqvaMD5qcQLZyhxm/ehm/UOqWQRdPDAb13 4o0Cd0kZ+3DyIs6dzi9PZVOge594rt6LBOPQfMcoB899t/SpxI0Q0Q== =a8p7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: The Illusion of Freedom
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Monty Cantsin wrote: >Nerthus wrote: >>Monty Cantsin wrote: >>>However, most people who engage in war are not in any sense free and >>>the single most apparent feature of life in a military organization is >>>the elimination of freedom and privacy. >>> >>>It is most often the case that in order to wage war, one must first >>>become enslaved. >> >>Those who wage war are rarely the slaves. Those who die usually are. >>The "cannon fodder" you mentioned. > >"Okay soldier, let's see that pass!" Is this the treatment accorded >to a free man? Clearly not. Let me rephrase what I said since it appears it was not as obvious as I had thought. Those who wage war (the politicians/"kings") are rarely the slaves. Those who die (the soldiers/citizens) usually are. The soldiers and citizens are the pawns and other chessmen on the chessboard who are sacrificed to protect the king of their color while attempting to checkmate the king of the other color. All chessmen are expendable, except the two kings. When one of the kings is checkmated, the game is over. Note: the king can be checkmated without the loss of a single chessman, though it is rare. However, the possibility exists. Think about it. Nerthus -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNHtawOFWwZe05jcJAQGvZggAhDzCHUGgXEsKkPIEoiuhfqIDVsjVDEnY xDHeJcaBnTQmlp3bbqapgEyfMwisxGKOqYkEe4UknKkGgTfSFZZ/3lpaY7ljbowE qaeO/yHrJOhABeGnBQgLNJUpF5JyA29nGNqyjaKS8u9fi6hN5VeE+UgoLagRwwnf fyphD9Q6hzvaka0TeeLua9h294HgHXu7L8CSUvsTlnA4CEHfebMxDIkyBE6k2TOV UWDZusi9Qs/vr1MRDAD5+9i1OdIqS+YZedpE/yt7w+xsqZr/+W9bz4rSc3Feba6h PipF0Jb5SBwIv4C6bRuHIpJ9mbm3C5LNbTq84RKaCVU0xp+SMWQB1g== =4XaY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
by lcs Mixmaster Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jari Aalto -- AT poboxes.com <ssjaaa(a)uce-die.uta.fi> wrote: > | Anon.penet.fi was *NOT* an anonymous remailer, though. It was a "pseudonym > | server". The fact that it maintained a database by which posts could be > | "traced back to a real address" is the main reason why it's no longer in > | operation. > > You give wrong inmpression about PENET; which was after all, the first > anonymnous service. There are levels of anonymity. For penet strory, > refer to this: > > http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/anon/penet.html I'm not knocking the anon.penet.fi experiment. We've all learned a lot from it. Let's not forget those lessons. The same attack has been tried on two different remailers. In 1996, the anon.penet.fi remailer was the subject of an attack by the Co$. As part of that attack, the remailer's database which linked the "anonymous" accounts to their actual holders. The operator valiantly defended the integrity of that database, and it was not compromised. But the potential was certainly there. This year, Jeff Burchell's "Huge Cajones Remailer" came under attack. Alleging "abuse" involving that remailer, Gary Burnore and Belinda Bryan of DataBasix demanded that Jeff turn over ALL his logs to them. Fortunately, Jeff wisely kept no such logs. Even though the remailer was eventually harassed out of existence, the privacy of its users was preserved because the information the attackers demanded simply wasn't there to demand. That's a wise idea for the same reason that retail merchants remove the cash from their cash registers when they're closed, leaving the cash drawers unlocked. There's less temptation to stage an attack if you know in advance that you won't get what you're seeking (the identity of someone you'd like to silence, for example) by staging such an attack. Any operator that keeps identifying information is inviting litigation, or worse. If you're an ISP and are making money, then perhaps that risk is justified. But you can't expect a volunteer operator of a free remailer to take such a risk for nothing. You're right. For those who only need a superficial level of "anonymity" and don't really care if their identity is eventually revealed publicly, some of the alternatives such as Hotmail would perhaps suffice. But that's a decision best left to the user, and not to be mandated by others with a lesser stake in the consequences. --

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1812_Napoleon_in_Moscow.htm
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Napoleonic Literature Greenhill [INLINE] Books _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] 1812: NAPOLEON IN MOSCOW by Paul Britten Austin 9 x 6 in. (240 x 159 mm). 272 pages. 22 halftones, 2 maps. ISBN 1-85367-195-9. U.K. Price £19.50. U.S. Price $40.00. Napoleon's Grande Armée waits at the gates of Moscow, preparing to enter in triumphal procession. But it finds a city abandoned by its inhabitants - save only the men who emerge to fan the flames as incendiary fuzes hidden throughout the empty buildings of Moscow set the city alight. For three days Moscow burns, while looters dodge the fires to plunder and pillage. And so begins 1812: Napoleon in Moscow, Paul Britten Austin's atmospheric 'word-film' presented through the testimony of more than 100 of the people who witnessed the took part in the campaign. A large proportion of these close-up accounts have never been seen in English before. After the fires die down the army settles in the ruins of Moscow. For five weeks Napoleon waits at the Kremlin, expecting 'his brother the Tsar' in St. Petersburg to capitulate and make peace, while in fact the Russian army is gathering its strength. At the same time Murat's cavalry, the advance guard, is encamped in dreadful conditions three days' march away at Winkowo, where it is being starved to death. When Napoleon eventually realizes the futility of his plans and prepares to leave Moscow, the advance guard is surprised by a Russian attack and tumbles head over heels out of its position. The most astounding exodus in modern times ensues. Trailing thousands of wagons and carriages laden with all the stupendous loot of Moscow, the Grande Armée moves slowly south in an attempt to outflank the Russian General Kutusov. At Malo-Jaroslavetz, 100 kilometers from Moscow, it runs headlong into ten of Kutuzov's divisions, and its 'conquest of the world' comes to an end with the shock of Napoleon himself narrowly escaping capture by Cossacks. 1812: Napoleon in Moscow follows on from the brilliant 1812: The March on Moscow, which brought Napoleon's army across Europe to the great city. Paul Britten Austin recreates this next phase of the epic campaign with characteristic verve, and an astonishing sense of immediacy from the words of the participants themselves. Paul Britten Austin went to sea as a cabin boy in the British merchant marine, graduating to Radio Officer and serving in tankers and liberty ships. In 1947 he recovered his childhood home in Paris, but moved to Sweden, where he married the Swedish novelist Margareta Bergman, sister of the film director. For nearly a decade he was in charge of English-language broadcasts from Radio Sweden; thereafter, from 1957 to 1969, of the Swedish government tourist office in London. He has written a score of books on various subjects, both in English and in Swedish, including a classic biography of the eighteenth century Swedish poet Carl Michael Bellman. He has also translated many other Swedish classics and he has been awarded a Swedish knighthood of the Order of the North Star and an honorary D.Litt. In 1989 he contributed the article on Marshal Oudinot to David Chandler's anthology Napoleon's Marshals. _________________________________________________________________ (If you surfed directly to this page, please go to the Napoleonic Literature Home Page to see the wealth of information that's available on this website.)

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"Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally." (was: Furor over Spam)
by lcs Mixmaster Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

tweek(a)netcom.com (R R M Tweek) wrote: > I think it's fucking funny if you ask me. The unworthy "databasix goons" ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > were concerned just about this sort of thing occuring. Isn't it amazing how they can "predict" thing like that? > I hope that > LOA was running some sort of caller ID, or supeonas the phone records > of those calls who step across the line and made threats in their 4am > phone calls. Can't wait to see how this story sways the congresscritters > when Sanford tries to spin this incident his was in the anti-spam legislation > hearings. Maybe you ought to give (or sell cheaply) your fellow "databasix goon" Gary Burnore the clue that if he's going to call an alleged "spammer" on the phone at 2 AM and ream him about a Usenet post, that he shouldn't brag about it publicly. And yet he did exactly that. Would it be any wonder if people were to start suspecting that he might have done the same thing again? Now go subpoena those phone records. You might want to concentrate on calls made from the Raleigh-Durham, NC area. If you're alluding to the fact that Ron Guilmette may have been responsible, since the disinformation team at DataBasix has accused him practically everything else, you have about as much chance of proving that as O.J. Simpson does of "finding the real killers". > Good job NANAE. You really fucked up royally. One could conceivably substitute "DataBasix" for "NANAE" in that flame. --

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Re: Open Letter from ClickZ Publisher
by lcs Mixmaster Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

gburnore+spam(a)netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote: > : gburnore+spam(a)netcom.com (Gary L. Burnore) wrote: > : > > : >Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right? BULLSHIT. > : > : Unless it was you, criminal. > > So a being arrested (a ticket actually) is being a criminal to you, eh? Good ol' Gary "Shoot from the Lip" Burnore ... gotta love 'im, right? I gotta hand it to you, Burnore, you have a knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The "criminal" comment was obviously intended as a joke, and the poster even apologized for it, but you just couldn't leave it alone, could you? You had to go bragging about your "martyrdom" in San Francisco, didn't you? For further info on Gary's arrest, visit: http://www.e-media.com/cm/sac.html First off, it eventually became "a ticket actually" because it was plea bargained down to that. That's one of the advantages of committing a "politically correct" offense in a city like Frisco. The San Francisco Police Department presumably doesn't take people into custody and impound their vehicles for mere traffic tickets. But it does prove that you're willing to break the law to prove a point. Remember how you bragged about calling a spammer at home at 2 AM to harass him? When you say: "Oh no, couldn't have been anyone from this group, right? BULLSHIT." you're absolutely correct. It could have been you! I have no doubt that someone who'd dig up an ancient tax lien and post it to Usenet in an attempt to embarass and silence a critic could well have done what's mentioned here. --

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NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: >From owner-travel-advisories(a)stolaf.edu Wed Nov 26 03:44:15 1997 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:27:10 -0500 From: owner-travel-advisories <owner-travel-advisories(a)stolaf.edu> Subject: NEW TRAVEL INFO -- Togo Sender: Wally Doerge <76702.1202(a)compuserve.com> To: travel-advisories(a)stolaf.edu Message-ID: <199711241131_MC2-2974-E60C(a)compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Precedence: bulk STATE DEPARTMENT TRAVEL INFORMATION - Togo ============================================================ Togo - Consular Information Sheet June 20, 1997 Country Description: Togo is a small west African nation with a developing economy. Tourism facilities are limited, especially outside Lome, the capital city. Entry Requirements: A passport and visa are required. Proof of yellow fever immunization is required. Travelers should obtain the latest information and details from the Embassy of the Republic of Togo, 2208 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008. The telephone number is (202) 234-4212. Overseas inquiries should be made at the nearest Togo embassy or consulate. Areas of Instability: Togo has experienced periodic violence and strikes over the past five years. Although the situation has been calm since 1994, the potential exists for unsettled political conditions. Medical Facilities: Medical facilities in Togo are limited. Some medicines are available through local pharmacies. Doctors and hospitals often expect immediate cash payment for health care services. U.S. medical insurance is not always valid outside the United States. The Medicare/ Medicaid program does not provide for payment of medical services outside the United States. Travelers have found supplemental medical insurance with specific overseas and medical evacuation coverage to be useful. For additional health information, travelers can contact the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's international travelers hotline at (404) 332-4559. Internet: http://www.cdc.gov. Information on Crime: Pickpocketing and theft is common, especially along the beach and in the market areas of Lome. There has been an increase in the reports of carjacking. Business fraud stemming from Nigerian scam operations target Americans and pose dangers of financial loss and physical harm. Persons contemplating business deals in Togo with individuals promoting investment in Nigeria, especially the Central Bank of Nigeria or the Nigerian National Petroleum Company, are strongly urged to check with the U.S. Department of Commerce or the U.S. Department of State before providing any information, making financial commitments, or traveling to Togo. The loss or theft abroad of a U.S. passport should be reported immediately to local police and to the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate. The pamphlets "A Safe Trip Abroad" and "Tips for Travelers to Sub-Saharan Africa" provide useful information on protecting personal security while traveling abroad and on travel in the region in general. Both are available from the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C. 20402. Drug Penalties: U.S. citizens are subject to the laws of the country in which they are traveling. In Togo, the penalties for possession, use or trafficking in illegal drugs are strictly enforced. Convicted offenders can expect jail sentences and fines. Road Safety/Automobile Travel: Intercity roads are generally paved; however, conditions are poor and dangerous. Overland travel off the main network of roads generally requires a four-wheel drive vehicle. Poorly-marked armed checkpoints, often manned by undisciplined soldiers, exist throughout the country. Nighttime travel on unfamiliar roads is dangerous. Banditry, ranging from extortion by security forces to armed robbery, has been reported on all major intercity highways, including the Lome-Cotonou coastal highway. Credit Card Usage: Not all major credit cards are accepted in Togo. Travelers planning to use credit cards should be aware which cards are accepted before they commit to any transaction. Embassy Location/Registration: U.S. citizens are encouraged to register with the Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy at the intersection of Rue Polisher Caventou and Rue Vauban, Lome, telephone (228) 21-29-91, and to obtain updated information on travel and security in Togo. The Embassy's fax is (228) 21-79-52 and the mailing address is B.P. 852, Lome. No. 97-106 This replaces the Consular Information Sheet dated May 3, 1996, to update information on entry requirements and provide information on credit card usage. ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- The "travel-advisories(a)stolaf.edu" mailing list is the official Internet and BITNET distribution point for the U.S. State Department Travel Warnings and Consular Information Sheets. To unsubscribe, send a message containing the word "unsubscribe" to: travel-advisories-request(a)stolaf.edu Archives of past "travel-advisories" postings are available at the URL: "http://www.stolaf.edu/network/travel-advisories.html" or via Gopher: gopher.stolaf.edu, Internet Resources/US-State-Department-Travel-Advisories

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Re: Further costs of war (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:00:04 -0500 > From: Fabrice Planchon <fabrice(a)math.Princeton.EDU> > Subject: Re: Further costs of war (fwd) > On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 01:30:37PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > To quote one of your examples, > the production of the Me 262 was seriously delayed due to his obsession > to make a bomber of it. Not that it would have changed the game, just > made it more difficult for the allies. True, but my reference had to do with what would have happened if the US had NOT gotten into the conflict. Then such shortages as the 4-engine bomber would not have been as critical to Germanys servival as early in the war. The bottem line, had the US not entered the war Germany and Japan had enough resources to reach their goal. Further, it is unreasonable given the nature of Hitler, Mussolini, & Tojo to believe they would have left the US alone, let alone stable long-term trade. > > Such as? The situation in China at the time was that a variety of warlords > > were spending more time fighting each other than the Japanese. China > > Nothing better than a common enemy to help reconciliation... It's unfortunate the Chinese didn't see it that way. > Well, you want to stick to this issue of fighting battles between > armies. Actualy I am discussing the strategic and operational level, not tactical. It isn't the result of a single battle but rather the management of a string of battles that is important to winning. That takes understanding motives, transportation, raw supplies, processing facilities, etc. The thesis was that had the US not entered the war the result would have been a relatively benign quad of the US, Germany, Italy, & Japan, supposedly moderated by distance and economic dependancy. I challene that. Consider the strategic interacion of 3 parties, easily extensible to more. It is in each of the parties best long-term interest (assuming unrestricted access to resources, theological supperiority, etc.) to pair with one of the other parties and attack the 3rd, evenly splitting the spoils. The stablist strategic form is binary or possibly unitary. I would further feel historicaly supported to propose that given sufficient time, resources, and planning this situation will develop *and* devlolve to either a binary or a unitary form. A recent example was the Soviet Union. The interesting question is whether the current apparent unitary position of the US will devlove into a multi-party situation or whether it can actualy win over by some means the other parties to willing cooperation. > So I am ready to accept that they win all this battles. So what > next ? next they have to deal with too many territories to take care > of. Unless they can have local faction to deal with that for > them. Doesn't work very well usually. That's simple constation from past > history. That's all. They won't be able to put a japanese soldier in > every household from the great wall to Rhode Island. And once they had control of the basic infrastructure they wouldn't have to. I challenge the thesis that the Japanese would have had to put a soldier in every house. Consider the situation in Vichy France and it's relationship with German occupiers. The Chinese could certainly have no higher level of objectionable feelings. Yet the Vichy French as a rule were quite cooperative in supporting German goals. Even to the point of firing on their French brothers in North Africa. > This Abyssinia adventure was one of the reasons Mussolini got in trouble > with, let's say, the ONU of this time, the "Société des Nations", as you > pointed out. Doesn't change anything to what I said, and can be checked, > about the fact that Mussolini wasn't a great friend of Hitler at > first. It came more as a necessity than anything else. Why? The Tripartite Pact wasn't signed until Sept. 27, 1940. A considerable time before this Churchill had been sending letters to Mussolini requesting him to stand against Germany. That act on Mussolini's part would definitely thrown a wrench in the Germans plan on the strategic and political level. He chose to go with the Germans because he at some level felt they would win. > > If the US had waited until Hitler began dropping bombs on New York and > > firing V2's from submarines 20 miles off the coast while at the same time > > Japan was doing the same sorts of things, with a nice base at Pearl Harbor, > > *and* you claim the US could have stood the test then I can only say you > > are confused at best. > > I think they could have done it. Let's say 50/50 ;-) Seriously? What would the US have used? The P-51 Mustang would most certainly not have gotten the surge it did because Britian would have been giving their hot-rod Merlins to the Germans to put in their 109's. The impact of that simple act alone would have seriously crippled the US and given a considerable lead to the Germans in engine technology. Consider also that without the military load the ME-262, Komet, Blitz Bomber, V2, etc. would have gotten farther quicker. The US got its first jet engine from Whipple who was a Brit. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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