December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

No Subject
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > Tim May's mother attempted to pro-choice the unwanted > Graham-John Bullers by fishing with a coat hanger in her giant > cunt, but failed miserably to pull the rabbit and > succeeded only in scraping out the contents of little > Timmy's fetal cranium (not much to begin with). > > (_) _____ (_) > /O O\ Graham-John Bullers > ! I ! > ! \___/ ! > \_____/ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Graham-John Bullers Modulator of alt.2600.modulated ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ email : real(a)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca : ab756(a)freenet.toronto.on.ca ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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The Bell Plan
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- John Young wrote: > The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1: > An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of > sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water > > Vancouver, Wash. -- A Vancouver man arrested Friday by Internal > Revenue agents discussed sabotaging the computers in Portland's > 9-1-1 center and talked about using a botulism toxin to contaminate > the Bull Run water supply, a federal agent said Monday. After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to support him. "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..." - Jonathan Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability of using other methods to accomplish the same end. If Jim Bell is guilty of the charges against him, then I am already guilty of the same types of charges, as are many other cypherpunks. I undoubtedly have some of the same files/posts on my computer as the ones that the government will use as proof of Jim Bell's guilt. My action in this regard is for the purpose of protesting the governments persecution of its citizens, Jim Bell specifically, and to act to counter the benefits that they expect to gain by doing so. (CypherPunk Translation~~"I'm pissing in the government's face.") In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly persecute me. In effect, I am telling the U.S. government that in exercising one of my basic human rights I feel it is necessary to protect myself legally from the government persecution of its citizens. I am also telling them that I will not "go quietly into the night" in the face of censorship, loss of privacy, and oppression. I will "route around" the "damage" that the government's policies and legislation cause, doing so in a non-violent manner. (Hopefully, but not realistically, they will recognize that if they manage to block all means for me to non-violently route around the abrogation of my rights as a free human being, that my only alternatives will be conflict or enslavement.) Anyway, in thinking about the possibilities surrounding the introduction of carbon fibers into a federal building, my first thought was in regard to whether or not carbon fibers are actually known to cause damage to hard drives. Does anyone know where this idea comes from and whether it has any known basis in fact? If there is some basis for believing it to be a possibility, then it would not take much effort to test it out. One could get an old computer for a petty sum and use it to test the results of introducing the fibers through the power supply. TruthMonger #1 "They will get my cryptography when they pry it from my cold, dead algorithms." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0 beta Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM4KR+6ozBjzmqceZAQHeRQQAiI6CSKzPgioO5UdacoNbtKPyTvhHOuNB /kkCx1UuYiVOaIw48oVX7Gj1bIcMMkAiM+q6q+SOZkEq+hNUdriISpY5/aKA39Yp ejNKl2McRK7WrP+TQPNx9hwxFrW93JrqjhSPhZsgkVNtIHG/wE1RpdWJzPiIOeP2 /Q9TTHmRoRU= =x+P/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 5.0 beta mQCNAzMs140AAAEEAL1CAoB5pd97hIOoT6L0v05Ov8nw0unf0db6NXZ91EJAyq9p DoPGJl7Z6m5McIsNI2DrCEEt7KYdt0ZIGcqqK2gmCePYI0oQOFj+jznI3jKXg1k2 R+ngk+cUn21EfrNXFGPk1Tuc1/3Qib6cX6BZRJvvz1FNYNt/zqozBjzmqceZAAUR tBtUb3RvIDx0b3RvQHNrLnN5bXBhdGljby5jYT6JAJUCBRAzPR6jIokaQ0EgfuUB ARyWA/9P1UVMvBAGXY488f/Nvs1CZnp/a0SNxELXfpMyJz/Vdd2RuahRYoc50Cbp F1/QOd4PZeEW2aNT/shxfm3Q9zpxGzyFgy//tEXdw2aedzdT4oMOgDBqMrzc2LfN 8zWqF5cWJLASIqwbrIkmyZR6LUCxmE79WmgRlQGAHfMwwC3WLYkAlQMFEDOCfw+w X4yQZvuMZQEBhuYEAJW2pN2aj1m7972GkQvUVBeenWrMqKXNyHF/73+YGZsLLo79 ApWR1ROm2RgxXJQeHSrUolXhxpkjHe9DJ5GwrsV7m97HfwvM32Vw/32U4T1jyeez VvBqJQ417UxxYS2QSQZIyLcVojFEJvh/kQ2NFXwTPJ1BscPn4/KnT6DD0u5ciQCV AwUQM4J+6pfboLn8NWjNAQGTigQAnrFZ8OiAguWqi1LsClKo0t9y+Ly98EPnpBt2 FgQN9/Z8PSZjPqEn9AJk7Z5TBhGJNXBmkULiuNA9zvGTsRM0S7Oi6/WFUcL9rio6 gMsxTnDythGaFa5YDQXgXtFxqcjsojGhe922KFnVi4xxatO9vm9Zo3JaNAK8zvg2 rIrd7VQ= =MuiR -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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encryption laws (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:04:39 -0400 > From: Allan Thompson <sparky12(a)earthlink.net> > Subject: encryption laws > Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key, > > and order you to tell them the key ? > If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ? If they had reasonable cause to believe you had knowledge of the key and were refusing to divulge it under direct order of the court you would be held in contempt until you were very old and gray. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem forNext Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text From: Jack Oswald <joswald(a)rpkusa.com> To: "'joswald(a)rpkusa.com'" <joswald(a)rpkusa.com>, "'maujacca(a)iprolink.ch'" <maujacca(a)iprolink.ch> Subject: Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:41:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Also see recent press coverage in Infoworld: RPK announces deal for fast crypto with Swiss consortium http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97059.wrpk.htm SET 2.0 on the way http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/97/16/t04-16.1.htm PRESS RELEASE For Release May 19, 1997 RPK, Inc.: Jack Oswald, +1 408.479.7874, joswald(a)rpkusa.com, http://www.rpk.co.nz ADESA, Inc.: Maurice Jaccard,+41 22.910.29.14, maujacca(a)iprolink.ch Swiss Consortium Chooses RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem for Next Generation Wireless Electronic Transactions Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc. introduce HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor San Francisco, CA - RPK, Inc. announced today that a consortium of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and ADESA, Inc., a Swiss application specific integrated circuit (ASIC) design firm have chosen the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem to provide strong cryptographic security in a next generation wireless electronic transactions application. At the same time, EPFL and ADESA unveiled HAWK a new generation cryptography-enhanced microprocessor specifically designed for use in high speed/low power embedded applications. "The RPK encryption technology won the design review after an extensive evaluation of all existing cryptosystems based on well known and understood cryptographic techniques," said Maurice Jaccard, Managing Director of ADESA, Inc. "With RPK there are no compromises. We get uncompromised security, high speed and low cost of implementation." "RPK is a strong encryption technology based on well know and trusted cryptographic techniques," said Jack Oswald, President and CEO of RPK Inc. "Having RPK chosen by the Swiss for this breakthrough electronic-commerce application is the strongest endorsement we could possibly achieve for the RPK technology." Wireless Electronic Transactions Application The collaboration of RPK, EPFL and ADESA has resulted in a prototype application that promises to become the "wallet of the future". This new wireless electronic transaction application may take the form of a credit card, a watch or a key chain and will sport features analogous to the leather wallets used today by billions of people worldwide. Early designs of the system allow the user to withdraw and hold cash in multiple currencies, as well as, purchase and hold vouchers for hotels, planes and car rentals all through the use of wireless communications technology. Officials in charge of the project envision that such devices could also become a personal key chain for gaining access to motor vehicles, offices and dwellings, in addition to traditional credit card uses. ADESA concluded that performance of the RPK implementation in the prototype far exceeded existing smart card implementations based on the RSA and other algorithms. The RPK technology performs the necessary encryption functions in less than 10 milliseconds using an 823-bit key compared to the best performing RSA-based equivalents that require greater than 100 milliseconds to perform the same type of function using a much weaker 512-bit key. The application is not limited to 823-bit keys. The design of the system, based on the new HAWK processor is flexible and can accommodate and process various sized keys, smaller or larger than 823 bits based on downloadable parameters. ADESA officials explained that the simplicity of the RPK algorithm makes it much simpler to implement than the popular RSA approach. It was RPK's simplicity, offering a much faster and cheaper solution while providing even higher security, that drove the choice over RSA for this application. About the RPK Fast Public Key Cryptosystem RPK is a relatively new public key cryptosystem that is based on mathematics widely used in cryptography today. It was designed to be immediately commercially viable without the years of study that a new area of mathematics normally requires, such as the Elliptic Curve Cryptosystem (ECC). The source of the security for RPK is the same as that of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, a widely used and well studied cryptographic technique. RPK offers real advantages for high speed networking, SmartCard, wireless communication applications as well as high volume software processes such as credit card transactions. RPK has at its core an invention called a Mixture Generator. In the preferred implementation, three fairly long linear feedback shift registers are used. This state machine has two modes of operation. One that uses the shift registers for exponentiation and the other as a generator of a random stream of bits used in a combining phase for the actual encryption. Effectively, RPK allows for the amortization of two "costly" exponentiations over the entire length of a message because the core engine is used to initially establish a secure state of the machine and then switches modes to perform very high speed encryption. This has been referred to as a paradigm shift where the operation of encryption does not require the costly calculations that an RSA or even an ECC implementation would require for each block of data that is about the size of the key. This mechanism can also be implemented in silicon quite efficiently such that at high strength it is much cheaper to produce than alternative technologies. Finally, it is also possible to create a Mixture Generator that is made up of Elliptic Curve groups which would provide a similarly speedy and efficient initialization mode that could still produce high speed encryption as noted above. About the HAWK VLSI Crypto Processor The HAWK VLSI cryptography-enhanced processor is the result of more than three years of research and development conducted at the EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland in the area of high speed compression and encryption. The HAWK processor will benefit most cryptography implementations but is particularly well suited for use with RPK. "The HAWK processor is the most innovative approach that we have seen yet for implementing cryptographic processes in silicon," said Bill Raike, Chief Technology Officer for RPK Inc. and inventor of the RPK fast public key cryptosystem. "HAWK breaks the barrier for high speed, low cost, low power and high strength encryption for embedded systems." Background RPK, Inc. is a supplier of next generation fast public key encryption technology. RPK was invented and originally patented in New Zealand. The company is therefore unaffected by restrictive U.S. export rules. RPK has been successfully exported to virtually all countries of the world at high strength. The company's headquarters are based in San Francisco, California, USA, with an offshore research and development center located outside of Auckland, New Zealand. http://www.rpk.co.nz ADESA, Inc. is a leading ASIC design firm based in Geneva, Switzerland with expertise in embedded and cryptographic applications. EPFL is a leading teaching and research technical institute in Lausanne, Switzerland. The school is known for its work in advanced processor design. *** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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New FinCEN Rules
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

FinCEN has published today in the Federal Register three inter-related proposals for new rules for the Bank Secrecy Act Regulations: 1. Changes in the scope and type of transactions to be regulated, including, say, micro payments and and electronic transactions such as stored value cards. 2. Changes in the reporting requirements for suspicious transactions and the types of institutions to be regulated, including "money services establishments." 3. Changes in requirements for reporting currency transactions, and setting a new floor at $750 (as reported recently in the news). http://jya.com/fc052197.htm (79K) http://jya.com/fc052197-2.htm (69K) http://jya.com/fc052197-3.htm (63K)

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encryption laws
by Allan Thompson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Would it be possible for a court to subpeona a encrypted file or key, and order you to tell them the key ? If you didn't would you be held in 'contempt of court' ? -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAyw57X8AAAEEANs79QzyCIwCXMUnbiFTK5l8lJBXKdZqGAHxwgbDOuOGBSJB HBxlfycbSqevTPmKRTL4yHD1yCmAbkTrZtZuP1DDWeStaujf3M8lh6RlU4lOLU4Z IAu12Y9i4IgyBQkM03d/TZfAaXwUKQu2APBNz8D6ZT53xVzJVy80opqUWHzJAAUR tB9BbGxhbiBUaG9tcHNvbiA8YXRjMTJAd2VsbC5jb20+iQCVAwUQLDsrvS80opqU WHzJAQEvWgQAvx/DdLFB5Jk4BOiSD5QX8qDbAb40L1rgNAi3R/1kSYnBjli/ncDR msyJKoviG0Ppl0JSxfX4SpgoKOsS1jpz5yFFmBAPCPJ5VC0cjwhgItdnyHnAcj99 FdrcVhF9G2oJkeoqgXkt3Hy6YWhGhxI4Wvcrv6eAC1yKZ8FA3xltuWA= =o+Ud -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell. I think that much of the charges reported in the news are flase. Here is why... 1) They claim that Jim was actively trying to disrupt 911 service and poison the Bull Run water supply. These are non-political targets. Jim only thinks in political targets. (I remember trying to get him to come to grips with the idea that such a system as AP would not be used just for government types. That is would be used against anyone who had enemies. Could not even make a dent...) 2) The warrent is sealed, yet the media is reporting all sorts of things about the case. Where is the information coming from? Sounds like planted information to keep people from complaining too much when they send him up the river for a few years... (Whether he survives long in custody is another story. I would be willing to bet that if he does not "cooperate" that he will have some sort of "accident" while in government hands.) 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing. How many times has the "official" story changed? Each time it gets more and more lurid. (And many of the crimes are ones that get used against damn near every case the government tries against someone who threatens the security of the state. Belief starts to wear a bit thin after a while...) Of course, i do not expect anything like the truth from standing in the way of a conviction... "Paranoia strikes deep... Into your soul it will creep... It starts when you're always afraid... Step out of line, the man come, and take you away..." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0 beta Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBM4J5L+QCP3v30CeZAQGzywf9HoiiBqO3vbuYDtHreTk7IPKP6ZUIZX4c 5Wn54ip08cJ3pRKi+xWFhuniVve5GaenMoMbWMvVH2AQ8jVl+xGpnjGyACr0dnFK icJkwXX59/v+whYyu9R7lWba9qjqCq6XAUkyZog28F23mVGqKYz+QRPqYQF2C9AE KN7WCXd1C38m6q1YtpqgaZZ7i3+9wDjkYTm+2J4wogKzxnhSWZchhslI0V0QoySe 0zf83U8nHWQtE0d4c8nzmdRV+wTBB3Aj5Q9WVOYFSukRfn9n1pBC00aZ3Pec8BLC AeRkbbG6pKprTOfxWzd+s5T5KlWZZXo9667n7xfi/wH9LNtKNGHfEg== =vP8r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- | "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time." | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com|

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Mil-LE Forensic Tools
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From the NTI Web site, http://www.secure-data.com Free downloads: Forensic Tools The FILTER Forensic Tool: This program is used to remove binary (non alpha-numeric) characters from computer data. This program has been used internationally by military and law enforcement agencies for years and was donated to the law enforcement community by one of our founders back in 1991. Once a file has been processed with this program the content can be printed and viewed with more traditional types of programs, e.g. word processors. This program should not be confused with NTI's intelligent filter program. ... The NTIDOC Forensic Tool: This program is used to essentially take an electronic snap shot of files and subdirectories that have previously been identified to have some evidentiary value. It is a documentation tool. The program automatically creates documentation that can easily be printed, viewed or merged into forensic reports. The original program entitled DOC has been used for years by military and law enforcement computer specialists and has previously been donated for that use by the founders of NTI. ... The SPACES Security Review Tool: This program is very simple. It creates one or more files that contain nothing but spaces. To be exact, every file created by this program will contain 10,000 spaces. Such output is ideal in the evaluation of encryption patterns to determine security weakness. Our forensic training courses and cryptography courses cover this concept in detail. MICRO-ID Computer Theft Prevention Software: This software is used to mark computer hard disk drives with computer ownership information. Once a computer has been marked it can be identified by police should it be recovered as stolen property. The program that reads the ownership information is called COP-ONLY and as the name implies the program is only distributed to local, county and state law enforcement agencies. ... ----------

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Rogue Key Warning
by TruthMonger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

TruthMonger wrote: > In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am > posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally > signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking > action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly > persecute me. The PGP public key included with the file for identification purposes has a verifying signature that can corrupt your PGP 5.0 keyring file if you use the "Get Selected Key" option to get that particular verifying key and add it to your keyring. It crashes the program. The offending key shows up as "Unavailable, 0xFC3568CD" in the PGP 5.0 list of verifying signatures for the key. The key included in the file causes no problems with the program when added to the keyring as long as you don't use the program to retreive the offending verification key and add it to your keyring. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 5.0 beta > Charset: noconv > > iQCVAwUBM4KR+6ozBjzmqceZAQHeRQQAiI6CSKzPgioO5UdacoNbtKPyTvhHOuNB > /kkCx1UuYiVOaIw48oVX7Gj1bIcMMkAiM+q6q+SOZkEq+hNUdriISpY5/aKA39Yp > ejNKl2McRK7WrP+TQPNx9hwxFrW93JrqjhSPhZsgkVNtIHG/wE1RpdWJzPiIOeP2 > /Q9TTHmRoRU= > =x+P/ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 5.0 beta > > mQCNAzMs140AAAEEAL1CAoB5pd97hIOoT6L0v05Ov8nw0unf0db6NXZ91EJAyq9p > DoPGJl7Z6m5McIsNI2DrCEEt7KYdt0ZIGcqqK2gmCePYI0oQOFj+jznI3jKXg1k2 > R+ngk+cUn21EfrNXFGPk1Tuc1/3Qib6cX6BZRJvvz1FNYNt/zqozBjzmqceZAAUR > tBtUb3RvIDx0b3RvQHNrLnN5bXBhdGljby5jYT6JAJUCBRAzPR6jIokaQ0EgfuUB > ARyWA/9P1UVMvBAGXY488f/Nvs1CZnp/a0SNxELXfpMyJz/Vdd2RuahRYoc50Cbp > F1/QOd4PZeEW2aNT/shxfm3Q9zpxGzyFgy//tEXdw2aedzdT4oMOgDBqMrzc2LfN > 8zWqF5cWJLASIqwbrIkmyZR6LUCxmE79WmgRlQGAHfMwwC3WLYkAlQMFEDOCfw+w > X4yQZvuMZQEBhuYEAJW2pN2aj1m7972GkQvUVBeenWrMqKXNyHF/73+YGZsLLo79 > ApWR1ROm2RgxXJQeHSrUolXhxpkjHe9DJ5GwrsV7m97HfwvM32Vw/32U4T1jyeez > VvBqJQ417UxxYS2QSQZIyLcVojFEJvh/kQ2NFXwTPJ1BscPn4/KnT6DD0u5ciQCV > AwUQM4J+6pfboLn8NWjNAQGTigQAnrFZ8OiAguWqi1LsClKo0t9y+Ly98EPnpBt2 > FgQN9/Z8PSZjPqEn9AJk7Z5TBhGJNXBmkULiuNA9zvGTsRM0S7Oi6/WFUcL9rio6 > gMsxTnDythGaFa5YDQXgXtFxqcjsojGhe922KFnVi4xxatO9vm9Zo3JaNAK8zvg2 > rIrd7VQ= > =MuiR > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: Jim Bell goes to Jail!
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:12 PM 5/18/97 -0700, Alan Olsen wrote: >It is interesting that they have kept the warrent sealed. This, more than >anything makes me question the legitamacy of the whole affair. Sounds like >the IRS is planning a preemptive strike on the Common Law Courts and the >people behind them. There are two reasons I can think of immediately why the feds would keep the warrant sealed. The first is that they don't want to reveal just how little evidence they have. The second reason is that the warrant might give some clue as to future actions/other suspects. Remember that the IRS agent found the AP essay by means of an Internet search engine. That almost certainly means he is following the discussions about Jim Bell on the Net. Such as the discussion on Cypherpunks. It must be truly frightening to this person to read some of the threads on this list. Nerve gas, C4, race-specific biological weapons, bypassing airport security systems, not to mention money laundering and tax evasion, what hasn't been discussed here? The feds may not be aware that the discussions on this list are usually of a theoretical nature. Perhaps they decided to go after the "co-conspirators". Like the anarchists in California with their AR-15's who have so many mags that they can't even remember where they all are. :-) The fact that Jim is held _without bail_ would indicate to me that there is more going on than might meet the eye. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

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