December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: [NOISE] Censorship of Dr. Vulius
by Cerridwyn Llewyellyn 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

At 10:00 AM 11/4/96 -0500, you wrote: >someone abuses that priveledge they may lose it. Plain and simple. It is >also worthy to note that the Right to Free Speech, etc. applies to the >government (IOW, the government can not hinder the right to free speech so >long as that speech does not infringe upon someone else's right. Since when >is this list government run? The decision was apparently a personal one. I don't think anyone has argued that the owner of the list doesn't have the right to remove people from it. However, simply because he has the right to doesn't mean he should, and it also doesn't mean other members can't or shouldn't argue that he made a bad decision (unless, of course, the dissenting members are removed as well.) Many, if not most, members believe the list should be run in a non-authoritarian manner (whoever argued that the term authoritarian applies only to governments is wrong. the difference is a person has the right to act in an authoritarian manner over his own property whereas a government doesn't have that right over it's citizens. Again, however, having the right doesn't necessarily make it "okay"). //cerridwyn//

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Re: Censorship on cypherpunks
by Adamsc＠io-online.com 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

On Sun, 3 Nov 1996 18:54:16 -0500 (EST), Will French wrote: > Except it's not very effective, is it, since he's still >posting flames? In any case, it's an admission on John >Gilmore's part that libertarianism can't work without some >measure of authoritarianism; the only argument is over _just how >much_ authoritarianism we need. > I'm quite upset about this. Up to now I was able to tell >people that "there is at least one mailing list on the net that >functions in a completely open manner". No more. This has been taken far too seriously. Cypherpunks is a *PRIVATE* list. There is no obligation to accept anyone. # Chris Adams <adamsc(a)io-online.com> | http://www.io-online.com/adamsc/adamsc.htp # <cadams(a)acucobol.com> | send mail with subject "send PGPKEY" "That's our advantage at Microsoft; we set the standards and we can change them." --- Karen Hargrove, Microsoft (quoted in the Feb 1993 Unix Review editorial)

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anonymous oddsman
by nobody＠cypherpunks.ca 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

Ladbroke's (celebrating Halloween, probably) again offers 50:1 odds on Perot! Clinton and Browne are still not being offered. Recalling last Saturday's Dole odds; they were 7:1 at Ladbroke's, and 8:1 at William Hill. The betters at Ladbroke's (who get a somewhat worse deal, it seems) are bullish on Dole, while those at William Hill are now a bit more bearish on the old man, so the numbers diverge in the final stretch of the horserace. Prices @ 09:21 GMT Sat 2nd Nov 96 +---------+----------------+----------------+ | | Ladbroke's | William Hill | +---------+----------------+----------------+ | Clinton | Not currently offered by either | | Dole | 6:1 | 10:1 | | Perot | 50:1 (again) | 500:1 (!) | | Browne | Not currently offered by either | +---------+----------------+----------------+ | Phone | +44-800-524524 | +44-800-444040 | | Numbers:| | | +---------+----------------+----------------+ As for the animal suspected of *really* running the U.S.A, "Socks" appears to be successfully defending his territory against "Leader." Full of confidence, she is now running virtual tours of the White House, kids! http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/kids/html/home.html Meanwhile "Leader" whimpers at http://www.firstdog.com/ (Wow, his own domain!) Perot (obviously) needs no pet, and the oddsman is unaware of any public photos of Libertarian candidate Browne's cats, much less their names. A serious campaign. Our roving reporter in the UK also thinks that there *must* be significance in the fact that our Presidential election is being held on the anniversary of the day that Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up his Houses of Parliament, together with all the politicians within. He, as usual, will celebrate the event with bonfires and fireworks. Mailmasher.com appears to be down, apologies to any of you who wished to correspond personally with the oddsman there. Hopefully, oddsman(a)mailmasher.com will come back soon. anonymous oddsman "Demeaning the integrity of the U.S. Presidential election process for you on a regular basis, at no charge."

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Unix Review - letter to editor
by peter.allan＠aeat.co.uk 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

[ I refer to the article starting on p55 of the Nov 1996 Unix Review. ] -----letter to Ed start here------ Andrew, Congratulations on a welcome crypto article in UR. This is an important topic for security, networks, web-based commerce etc and is only going to increase in importance as people realise data is money. The article did raise my eyebrows a few times though with some wild statements - about the speed of brute-force attacks on DES, and about USG 'key escrow' proposals, patents and key certification. Also there are absolutely crucial issues not touched on, probably for lack of space. Details matter, and if you're contemplating another article on the subject I'd be happy to write it [subject to my boss' approval] or review it before publication. The field moves fast at times, and it would be good to keep an eye on the subject in a fairly regular column. Strangely, your author didn't mention ftp.ox.ac.uk, an ftp site for many good crypto tools, which (as a UK site) is not subject to US export restrictions. -- Peter Allan peter.allan(a)aeat.co.uk

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Re: Censorship on cypherpunks
by Rich Graves 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Geez, the traffic has quadrupled, with most of it about Vulis. Get over it already! And so, just to add to the garbage, here's my two cents. :-) Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Libertarianism is not incompatible with strict regulations, as long as > the rules violate nobody's rights. Now, there's an Orwellian statement if ever there was one. OF COURSE Vulis's "rights" were violated. The question is, so what? The decision was neither arbitrary nor capricious. I find the rational balancing of rights and responsibilities to be less wrong than defining away your opponent's rights. Since AFAIK there was no precedent for kicking Vulis off, and in fact cpunks has long prided itself on absolute anarchy (especially after the victory of the Tim May [neutral term for rant] factions over the Perrygram faction), there is a "rights" issue. I think cpunks broke an implied contract guaranteeing Vulis absolute rant rights. But I also think that that's OK. It's ironic that you're making this argument while a piece from you making the opposite argument is still on the news stands. My response to your half of the Internet Underground article can be found on Usenet, but I think the best summary of my position came in my response to the contrary point of view -- concurring in your judgement, but disagreeing with your reasoning. - From <53i4d5$skm(a)Networking.Stanford.EDU>: |>FLAMETHROWER |>By Solveig Bernstein (sberns(a)cato.org) |> |>The decision to remain silent is an act of conscience, just like the |>decision to speak. So the view that acts of "private censorship" |>violate rights of free speech is incoherent. If an online service |>provider ousts a Web site that posts explicit messages about sex, in |>violation of the terms of their service contract, or a non-profit |>organization persuades some Internet Service Providers to refuse to |>host "Holocaust Revisionist" web sites, these decisions do not violate |>rights of free speech. | |I agree, up to a point. The only "right" of free speech is the right to |be free from force and threats of force based on the content of speech. |As publishers, librarians, archivists, and access providers, though, we |have a *duty* to society to tolerate ideas we despise. But this duty |comes from the public's right to know and from the kind of people we |are, not from the "rights" of the speakers. | |Anyone who claims to be a content-neutral ISP, a librarian, or an |unbiased source of news who suppresses things she doesn't like is a |*LIAR AND A FRAUD* because she is giving her audience a dishonest, |distorted view of the world. Protests against such capricious exercises |of editorial power are appropriate and are necessary, but they should |be viewed as attacks on the character of the editor, not defenses of |the human rights of the suppressed. In this case, I think any fair investigation of the facts of the matter would clearly demonstrate that Gilmore was right to kick Vulis off, and that he was neither acting capriciously nor removing any substantive content. I do believe, though, that that's an investigation we must be prepared to accept (not that I think anyone's seriously going to ask for one, given the relative reputations of the parties involved). Granting the cpunks owner absolute property rights over the content of messages on the list, though, as you do, while strictly correct, is extremely dangerous because it gives license to all kinds of distoritions, lies, and fraud. The right of "the public" to inquire and respond must be respected. And it has been, as all these useless threads show. - -rich owner-fight-censorship-discuss(a)c2.net - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMn5xRioZzwIn1bdtAQH7JwGAhI91c5/AkamPaUUlfkC95sRzmHn6uUx9 j/AGAZQ4QTw6SHdgl5rBu9SkpncTh43b =Q7O4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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just what we #$%^&* needed from big brother....
by attila＠primenet.com 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

Welcome to 1984+ what else with useless and illegally constituted bureaucrats add to their total infringement of every facet of our life. .NEW SYSTEM LINKS LENDERS, IRS .The Internal Revenue Service is developing an electronic program to link .mortgage lenders with the IRS, allowing them to exchange e-mail comparing .stated earnings on the mortgage application with actual tax return .information for the previous couple of years. If the cross-check turns up a .more than $10,000 discrepancy between the earnings claimed on the application .and those declared for tax purposes, the IRS has the option of pursuing the .loan applicant via an audit. IRS has targeted the system at self-employed .borrowers, who often declare high earnings in order to qualify for a larger .loan, but lower earnings when it comes to paying taxes. "Who knows what .their real incomes are?" asks one mortgage broker. (St. Petersburg Times 2 Nov 96 D5 courtesy of Edupage) -- one of the few things we all share: the utter, corrosive contempt for our elected officials. Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly, and for the same reason.

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Telling quote from Bernstein hearing
by Lucky Green 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

In the recent hearing of the Bernstein case, Anthony Coppolino for the Justice Department said: "We don't care about the theory; we don't care about the idea Mr. Bernstein has, which was to take a particular type of algorithm and use it to allow for an encrypted interactive conversation. That's his idea. We don't care about his idea; we care about the result of what it can do." http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/ITAR_export/Bernstein_case/Legal/ 960920.transcript Encrypted interactive conversations seem to be something to be concerned about...They are afraid of us. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President.

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[Noise] Re: Censorship on cypherpunks
by Alan Olsen 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

At 12:36 PM 11/4/96 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >I would appreciate an example of "strict regulations" which do not violate >anybody's rights. Obviously you have not known any good Dominatrixes. "Whip me, beat me, make me write bad crypto!" --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD." - alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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Re: Thank you, John Gilmore, for protecting freedom of spee
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

> Ironic how the list championed flooding Germany(?) with material in response to their > suppression of certain "objectionable" material, then gets into this sticky wicket. Absolutely, As much as I might hate Vulis`s stuff (and believe me I do). It is no justification for removing him from the list. We are supposed to be a platform for the discussion of cryptography but as the list has become more and more a libertarian platform for ideas and discussion we cannot really justify censorship in this way. I very much wish I could say that I agreed with John but I cannot do so with a clear conscience. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: New On WWW.Infowar.Com Vol I #4
by Betty G. O'Hearn 18 Dec '03

18 Dec '03

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