December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Net and Terrorism. (blanc@accessone.com)
by attila 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Addressed to: blanc <blancw(a)accessone.com> Cypherpunks <cypherpunks(a)toad.com> To: blanc <blancw(a)accessone.com> From: attila <attila(a)primenet.com> Reply-To: attila(a)primenet.com Subject: RE: Net and Terrorism. ** Reply to note from blanc <blancw(a)accessone.com> 07/04/96 12:31am -0700 = Could you explain your statement below: = = the first time you witness a small child begging for chocolate = exploded by a remote control pressed by her father, you understand = --you do not necessarily like it, it's just survival. = = Why was the child exploded? To kill the soldier it was requesting = chocolate from? = human life is cheap in many non-Western countries, particularly the orient. Female children are considered expendable (in China where parents are limited to one child; the abortion of a female fetus is common). children in war zones have always begged chocalate from soldiers and even a small child can pack enough plastiques to wipe out an entire patrol. as I said, it is one or the other --the child dies either way, and explosives are very messy. no matter how war movies are glorified for joe six-pack, war is still hell. -- Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives!

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Re: Net and Terrorism.
by attila 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Addressed to: tcmay(a)got.net Cypherpunks <cypherpunks(a)toad.com> ** Reply to note from tcmay(a)got.net 07/04/96 5:43pm -0700 = I recall that Attila is one of several Mormons on the list, from a = recent thread where I happened to mention Mormons as an example (and = got comments, including a statement that "Mormon" is a slur). = your memory is correct as to my membership: I am an active Elder and member of the Quorum of High Priests. The official name of the church since 1838 (eight years after founding) is "The Church of Christ and the Latter Day Saints" --therefore preference for 'LDS' or 'Saints.' the use of "Mormon" to describe our members is obvious from the "Book of Mormon," so named by the fact the prophet Mormon compiled and/or authored much of the book, although the last prophet and custodian was Moroni (the gold statue on top of LDS Temples is of Moroni). = Anyway, I should point out that Mormons (or Latter Day Saints, I = guess) are spreading quickly around the world...all WITHOUT using = "conversion by the sword," as some other well-known religions are = wont to do. = our mission is simple: we only ask that you read the material (preferably including the Book of Mormon) and privately (possibly including your family) to get on your knees and humbly and openly pray to God to tell you if the LDS church is the restored Church of Christ himself, as established before his crucifixion, unfortunately, we have been met by the sword, including in Utah, which was _occupied_ by Federal troops for almost 50 years and more than one U.S. Army was sent by Washington to subjugate and/or exterminate us. = Islam, notably, was known for this policy of conversion by the sword: = entire national populations were given the choice of converting to = Islam or being put to the sword. Most converted, naturally enough. = = (cf. various histories, incl. Wright's "Sacred Rage.") = = Islam is one of the religions teaching that "martyrs" go directly to = Paradise/Heaven/Valhalla. A terrorist who explodes himself goes = directly to sit at Allah's dinner table. [snip...] = = Personally, I expect to see more such "terrorist" acts in the = coming decades, in the U.S.) = given the insolvency of the U.S. government and the absurd ratios of stock values in the NYSE and NASDAQ --most of it on 10%, or less, margin, a total economic collapse is inevitable --not if! *when?* all the "safeguards" of FDR's Glass Act, the SEC, etc. are just so many words. the monied class and the manipulators are no less than the moneychangers Jesus expelled from the temple in Jerusalem. = Calling a spade a spade, Islam is in some sense a "terrorist = religion," in that physical force is seen by many Muslims as a = legitimate mechanism of conversion. [snip...] = = We should all be thankful that Mormons, as economically powerful and = as well-organized as they are, steer far clear of this kind of = recruiting and service to their beliefs. = technically, we "turn the other cheek" as W.W. Phelps did when the mobs in Jackson, MO tarred one cheek --he turned to make it easier to tar the other. = (It's been 30 years since I've been in Salt Lake City, but I = understand that strip clubs exist there--from reading certain news = groups!--and that alcohol is not illegal there. This government = tolerance of things inimical to the dominant religion would be = unthinkable in, say, Mecca.) = our basic attitude is very simple: we do not believe in the consumption of liquor, tea, coffee, and drugs including nicotine and caffeine. all members are not perfect, and many must restore their faith by repentance; however, we believe all non-members are free to practice _any_ religion of their choice, including in indulging in [legal] harmful substances. I, myself, live in Southern Utah in a rural high desert community of <150 families. I suspect it would be difficult to obtain a drink! The LDS position of war and conscientious objects is dual: if you profess to your Bishop you wish to be a conscientious objector (following the example in Alma), you will be supported; or, if you wish to be called to duty (as the striplings of Helaman who had not covenented to not raise arms). you will be supported, as this example from the Discourses of Brigham Young: "When we were right in the midst of Indians, who were said to be hostile, five hundred men were called to go to Mexico to fight the Mexicans, and, said Mr. Benton -- 'If you do not send them we will cover you up, and there will be no more of you.' "...The boys in that battalion performed their duty faithfully. I never think of that little company of men without the next thoughts being, "God bless them for ever and for ever." All this we did to prove to the Government that we were loyal. "...Thomas H. Benton, ...obtained the requisition to call for that battalion, and, in case of non-compliance with that requisition, to call on the militia of Missouri and Iowa, and other states, ...to destroy [us]. "This same Mr. Benton said to the President of the United States, in the presence of some other persons, 'Sir, they are a pestilential race, and ought to become extinct.'" [Discourses of Brigham Young 10:106] = There are of course other flavors of Islam, including arts-loving, = peace-loving, and scholarly sorts. The propagation of science and = math through the Dark Ages owes much to Arabic scholars, of course. = Hence, we cannot blanketly condemn Islam. = = However, for the sake of the discussion about terrorism, it's = important to recognize that some significant fraction of Muslims = believe these notions of martyrdom and are willing to engage in = horrific acts to accomplish certain ends. = = (The Arab world is very poorly connected to the Net at this time. = It'll be interesting to see what happens if and when they become = well-connected, with PGP, remailers, information markets, etc.) = currently, the Arabs are poorly connected to the Internet due to the fear of their despotic rulers that they will learn Western ways, including democracy --and, spread information and democracy to rise against these leaders. In Saudi Arabia, any usage of the InterNet goes thru the official state provided (a clear case for a satellite link). Of course, it is illegal to own weird satellite equipment. Attila 960704:2359 -- Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives!

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Who was that Masked Cypherpunk?
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

OK, fess up. Who was it who amended the anti-key-escrow language of the Libertarian Party Platform live on CSPAN? Specific reference to cypherpunks. DCF

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Moviepunks
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Not much crypto or any networking in "Independence Day." It does have a code name, however, "ID4." Disabled the mothership with computer viruses (highly unlikely.) Used a Mac Powerbook but no Apple logos showed. Film has mass appeal, however and some good bits. Good for teaching people that if 15-mile-wide spacecraft position themselves above your town--leave. The Net did get me into the film however without waits. Fired up www.777film.com at 1600 hrs, ordered tickets for the 1700 hrs showing, get to the theater, walked past lines into the lobby to use ATM, stuck in card, got tickets, went into theater. Dodged mob scene. Saw a preview of "Ransom" starring Mel Gibson in a remake of the 1956 Glenn Ford film of the same name. First ransom "note" appears to be a multimedia file (delivered by the Net?). DCF "Somehow, I doubt William Jefferson Blythe Clinton would fly an F-15 against a monster alien craft."

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Re: ecash thoughts
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:26 PM 7/4/96 -0400, Mark M. wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, jim bell wrote: > >> At 05:53 PM 7/3/96 -0400, Simon Spero wrote: >> Low, maybe a tenth of an American cent. But probabilistic payment should be >> used to allow the minimum average payment to go way below this, perhaps to >> an unlimited extent. The reason is simple: The cost of providing net >> transactions, and electronic transactions in general, can be expected to >> drop exponentially, just like the cost of telecommunications and CPU power >> do. Any arbitrary limit to how low they can go will act somewhat akin to >> the minimum wage: It will deter development of any product or service whose >> perceived value is less than this arbitrary minimum. > >If the value of a Turing is one tenth of an American cent, then it would >actually just be a pseudocurrency backed by U.S. dollars. I should have said, "about a tenth of a cent." I didn't mean to imply a linkage. >The inflation of >ecash would be the same as the inflation of U.S. money. However, I do agree >that the value of one unit should be low. > >You use Moore's Law to state that the cost of electronic transactions drops >exponentially. However, this is only true if the electronic transactions >use the same amount of bandwidth. As chip processing speed and transmission >bandwidth double, the cost of building the equipment also doubles. At any given time, that's true, but over time the cost of that processing (per unit transaction) will drop, probably in some exponential fashion. For an optical fiber transmission system, the cost of the fiber does NOT go up with the speed, since it's nowhere near its limiting capacity. End-termination systems will be more expensive, but I suspect that's a relatively small fraction of the overall cost. CPU cost will be significant, but then again the Moore's law trend will predominate. CPU's probably have 1000 times the power, per unit cost, than they did in 1980 or so. It would probably be over-optimistic to think that they'll drop the same ratio over the next 15 or so years, but it'll be enough of a reduction so that whatever costs appear to be limits today won't be then. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Altair emulator?
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

So you always wanted to run an Altair... http://www.nwlink.com/~tigger/altair.html Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Lack of PGP signatures
by vinnie moscaritolo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Folks it's time to shit or get off the pot. If what is holding us back is a PGPlib, (even though I personaly belive it's a bit late, S-MIME is becoming pretty popular) then either finish it, or make it available for someone else to finish it. I know that at least on the Mac if there was a there was a PGPlib, you would have seen more than one native email plug-in from the last Mac hack. Maybe Macintosh developers havent done crypto for a variety of reasons, whether it be NSA strong arming or not, BUT... I tell you as soon as someone releases a Mac CFM library that does crypto, thats when you will see interfaces that Joe-sixpack will use. And none of this silly telnet/unix shell I can't send my passphrase over the wire crap. Hello...Thats why they (we) make powerbooks. OH and I would suggest that you do make the interfaces/doc public in several well-known places (TM) ASAP. cause like the AT&T commercial says, have you ever been visited by the men with dark suits..you will. Vinnie Moscaritolo ------------------ "friends come and friends go..but enemies accumulate." http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A

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Philly Inquirer: More old, conterfactual "Hate on the Net" "news"
by Rich Graves 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This is fucking amazing. In the last month, the two most well-known young neo-Nazi activists on the net, having been exposed to a true diversity of opinion and true free speech on the Internet, repudiated their former beliefs (I'm buying one of them a beer next week); the most well-known neo-Nazi propagandist on the net, frustrated by having her daily newsletter posted publicly to Usenet, lashes out at DejaNews for building a case against her (she knows her own words are her best refutation); and serious attempts by neo-Nazis to rmgroup and vertical-spam two newsgroups where neo-Nazi movements are discussed and refuted failed without a single spam-cancel or account closure that could be mischaracterized as "censorship." And yet Reid comes out with the old Horsemen fear-mongering about "Hate on the Net." He even quotes an old piece from *former* net.nazi Milton Kleim WHICH MILTON NO LONGER SUPPORTS. The Dreaded Nazi Threat to the Net is in disarray, and the totally discredited and impotent kook Don Black (the man who would be king of the island of Dominica, but his coup failed) gets a front-page story in the Philadelphia Inqirer to sneer at America on July 4th. Unbelievable. No wonder Don was happy to send the full text of the article, below, to his ever-shrinking pool of supporters (and others) on his Stormfront mailing list (send "archive stormfront-l" in the body of a message to listserv(a)stormfront.org if you'd like to browse the last 100 messages, half of which talk about the recent breakdown in "the movement"). It seems they're determined to beat on the Four Horsemen even when it's patently obvious that they're dead. Reid Kanaley's email address is rkanaley(a)voicenet.com, but it seems he's only interested in talking to "experts" who are way, way out of touch with current events. -rich censor internet now! http://www.stanford.edu/~llurch/potw2/ boycott fadetoblack! http://www.fadetoblack.com/prquest.htm ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 11:13:53 GMT From: "don.black" <dblack(a)jbx.com> To: rich(a)c2.org Subject: SF: More "Hate on the Net" news >From this morning's Philadelphia Inquirer <http://www2.phillynews.com/inquirer/96/Jul/04/front_page/HATE04.htm>... Happy Independence Day! --Don Page One Thursday, July 4, 1996 Hate groups reaching vast Internet audience They are reaching a vast audience. Some Web sites are ``very, very slick says an observer. By Reid Kanaley INQUIRER STAFF WRITER Don Black, who was once national director of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and now runs a site on the World Wide Web called Stormfront, recognized early that the Internet was the place to be. ``The potential of the Net for organizations and for movements such as ours is enormous,'' Black, 42, of West Palm Beach, Fla., said in an interview. ``We're reaching tens of thousands of people who never before have had access to our point of view.'' Those who monitor the activities of extremists such as right-wing militias, neo-Nazis, Holocaust-denial groups and others agree that the Internet is proving irresistible to those organizations for communication, propaganda and recruitment. In a written response to an interview request e-mailed to Minuteman Press Online, a militia-oriented Web site, someone identified as R.A. Mann declined to be interviewed yesterday, but added: ``Militias use the Internet in the same way other groups do: data verification, urgent updates, tips on everything, legislation overviews, etc.'' Begun in the late 1980s as an electronic bulletin board for the so-called ``white nationalist'' movement, Stormfront was moved by Black to the Web in March 1995. The site is decorated with German-gothic text, white-pride graphics, and letters urging African Americans to thank whites for slavery. ``At the time of the Oklahoma City bombing [ in April 1995 ] , maybe two or three racist groups had Web pages,'' said Rick Eaton, senior researcher at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. ``There are now dozens, if not over 100 outright racist Web pages. There's a lot of new players that we never saw before, and most importantly there is a sense of communication and instant gratification -- that they're not alone.'' And many of their online efforts amount to ``very sophisticated advertisements for their groups,'' said Paul V. Fleming, a mass communications graduate student at Oklahoma State University, who has co-authored a research paper on Internet hate speech. ``Some of these sites are just very, very slick,'' with good graphics and downloadable ``hate music,'' Fleming said. Several watchdog groups, including the Anti-Defamation League and the Wiesenthal Center, are attempting to closely monitor hate speech on the Internet. The Wiesenthal Center, Eaton said, now focuses up to 80 percent of its research activity on the worldwide linkage of computer networks where cheap, unfettered and often anonymous global discourse points up both the blessings and curses of free speech. Black said he oversees an e-mail discussion group with 380 subscribers and an electronic mailing list for 1,200 people. But since March of 1995 he says his web site has been visited by thousands more. ``What we've done is begin to break that monopoly'' of the mainstream media, said Black. ``Anyone, of course, can set up a Web page, and in our case we've been pretty successful at it as far as the traffic we've gotten.'' ``Up to now, you had a guy like Don Black . . . sitting there and basically playing at being a Nazi when the lights are out. Now all of a sudden there is a double sense of empowerment: Their message, theoretically, gets out to hundreds of thousands or millions of people . . . and they're in touch with each other instantaneously,'' said Mark Weitzman, director of the Wiesenthal Center's Task Force Against Hate. Groups serious about using violence are not likely to be using the relatively insecure Internet to communicate, several experts said. Eaton said he had not previously heard the names of any of those arrested this week as part of an alleged plot by the Viper Militia in Arizona to bomb buildings in Phoenix. Were the Vipers on the Internet? ``Nope, I can't find 'em,'' said Richard Bash of Portland, Oregon, who maintains an electronic mailing list for the academic discussion of terrorism, and is writing a doctoral dissertation about militias. Most extremist-group members are ``blowhards'' who migrated from such innocuous activities as ``bowling leagues.'' Rarely, he said, do they pose a threat to society. Weitzman said, however, that increasing electronic communication among these extremists could be inspiring more to violence. ``With the arrests in Arizona, you see more people willing to go to the extreme,'' he said. ``As the communications increase between them, there is a sense: We have this link, we can start doing something about society.'' He said impressionable young people are the propaganda targets of many extremist groups. ``They see the Internet as an incredible recruiting tool. It is wide open for kids and, essentially, the younger the better, because they can get them before they develop all the intellectual resources to combat what they're saying,'' Weitzman said. ``Organizations have recruited through Stormfront, and through their Web pages that we've linked to,'' said Black. Some experts say that the nature of the Internet makes it difficult to stumble upon extremist material without looking for it. But Eaton contests that. He pointed out that a Web search for the term ``Talmud'' on the Infoseek service turns up a page from Stormfront titled ``The Talmud: Judaism's holiest book documented and exposed,'' in the top 10 of 353 references. In another search, the first and third of 415 references found for the word, ``Auschwitz,'' were links to the Web site of an organization that denies the Holocaust took place. And an online essay by white supremacist Milton Kleim Jr., 25, of Roseville, Minn., urges a campaign by ``cyber guerrillas'' to proselytize in the Internet discussion groups called Usenet news groups: ``Usenet offers enormous opportunity for the Aryan Resistance to disseminate our message to the unaware and the ignorant . . . We MUST move out beyond our present domain, and take up positions on `mainstream' groups.'' In his paper titled ``An Examination of Hate Speech, Censorship and the First Amendment on the Internet,'' presented in March to a Las Vegas conference on American popular culture, Fleming and co-author Torey Lightcap said, ``The Internet is accused of not only giving hate groups an uncontrolled platform but also legitimizing them.'' But the paper concludes that ``like the non-electronic world, citizens of cyberspace will probably have to live with hate speech as one of its liabilities in order to enjoy the wide range of benefits the Internet offers.'' Cyberspace libertarians severely criticized the Wiesenthal Center earlier this year when it sent thousands of letters to Internet service providers asking them to deny Web space to hate groups. Eaton said he was disappointed that barely a score of providers responded. ``We would like to see providers say, `This stuff is crap, and we're not going to put it on,''' he said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To: Multiple recipients of the Stormfront-L Mailing List Host: Don Black <dblack(a)mail.stormfront.org> Finger for PGP public key. Post to 'Stormfront-L(a)stormfront.org' with 'SF:' prepending the subject. To unsubscribe, send e-mail to 'Listserv(a)stormfront.org' with the line 'unsubscribe Stormfront-L' in the message BODY, not the subject. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- Processed with Listserv v2.92 for Wildcat v4

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InfoTrends ISTrends - Issue 55 (fwd)
by P. J. Ponder 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anybody know what this is about? I noticed it in the current issue of Information Society Trends. Thanks. Happy Independence Day USA! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:00:49 +0200 From: ISPO Administrator <root(a)www.ispo.cec.be> To: istrends(a)www.ispo.cec.be Subject: InfoTrends ISTrends - Issue 55 Information Society Trends Issue number: 55 - (13.6.96 - 27.6.96) [big piece snipped out here] TECHNOLOGY The Japanese Ministry of International trade and Industry (MITI) is planning the launch in 1997 in collaboration with Japanese electronics and computer firms of trials for an electronic certification system which would be used for the transmission of formal documents as well as to provide a high level of security for electronic commerce. [more stuff snipped out here] __________________________________________________________________________ DGXIII - The content of "Information Society Trends" does not necessarily reflect the European Commission's views. Also available electronically: http:/www.ispo.cec.be/ispo/press.html E-mail subscription: Majordomo(a)www.ispo.cec.be; enter SUBSCRIBE ISTRENDS + your e-mail address

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Re: Net and Terrorism.
by vinnie moscaritolo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Since this has become terror-punks I guess I should throw my e$.02 into the fray. I have to agree with the entity that call himself snow that one of the reasons that you don't see so much civil induced terrorism in the US, (as oposed to terrorism the Feds do) is because there is so many channels for free speach here. This helps to vent and depresurize the situations. There is little need for organizations to underground, since most things can (or used to be) be better done out in the open. In fact you will attract less governement attention that way. Take Greedpiece (typo) GreenPeace for instance, they are able to perform thier forms of terrorism very overtly, same for Anti-Abortionists. Sometimes I am astounded by the lack common sense that government officials display. Bill Klinton and his media budies (Ted Copulate etc) are the best recruiters for Militia groups, After the OKC bombing, his accusations of Militia involvement pissed off so many middle of the roaders that memberships showed a marked increase. Thanks to Sen Fineswine, Semi-Auto purchases had a record year in California. (does she have stock in Norinco?) There is no conspiricy on the governements part, just plain stupidity. >Then why do you float ideas such as buying out the Soviet arsenal if you >think it isn't possible? actually I know of an individual who did just that: he bought out an DDR arsenal, and flew it into Ohio on a Soviet transport. Scared the shit out of the ATC working the airport that day. Result: large supply of Soviet SKS, Moisan-Naggant and AK's for gunshops, just in time for the Fineswine blue light special. he made big bucks. >however, we will probably > see that again in parts of the world as many cultures do not have the >basic > respect for life we do. the first time you witness a small child begging > for chocolate exploded by a remote control pressed by her father, you > understand --you do not necessarily like it, it's just survival. > and faced with a decision of giving up 'n' "friendlies" for 1000n, or even > more, to survive, I know where I stood, and still stand Yes it does have a way of changing the way you look at the world. I only wish the clowns in office who make the decisions that the grunts guarding the embassies should have empty mags, could see any of this shit. War does suck, and suck in a big way, and when your there, and I don't mean watching it on CNN, you ARE in a world of hurt. > if the U.S does adopt the police state tactics Bubba > is espousing, the U.S. will be faced with _real_ terror, not staged > incidents to justify the martial law, etc. Roger that, an I for one don't want to see that war fought on US soil. This is the part that scares me the most. So my point is, the more the government inflates a non existant problem, the bigger the problem gets. The part that really bothers me is that too many times these are all diversion from important issues. The American people seem to be on a steady diet of OJ and CNN, when the war, the real war that will shape the future gets no media coverage. Things like education, and economic strategy are just not sexy enough for TV. >However, you will never be able to buy out the religious terrorists > --they are on a "mission." I was always taught They have nothing left to lose..make em happy and send em to Allah (or whatever) as quickly as you can. >There is no cure for the "revolutionary" terrorists .. > If we do not even print their obit, there is no glory! Tim, you are asking for the liberal media to act responsibly.. what were you thinking? speaking of liberal media, I have lost all creditibility with my Bostonian friends this week trying to tell em about the feature I saw in the San Jose TV news, where some animal expert actually suggested admininstrating tranquilizers to the family poodle in preparation for 4th of July festivities..something do with fireworks. OK maybe in Santa Cruz the animals (at least the ones downtown) are already on tranquilizers. But who wants a dog that can't deal with loud noises anyways, he'd be useless for huntin. But what do I know.. I just practice law Samoan style. Vinnie Moscaritolo ------------------ "friends come and friends go..but enemies accumulate." http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A

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