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Flight 93 Questions
by Ian Goddard 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

WAS UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN BY U.S. FIGHTER? (c) 9/14/01 Ian Williams Goddard Yesterday (9/13/01) a Reuters report stated that the FBI cannot rule out that hijacked Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet before it crashed in Pennsylvania. [1] Citing indications of a shoot down, the report states: "Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles away [from the crash site] in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky." Finding debris miles from the crash site indicates that the aircraft was disintegrating well before it hit the ground, as would be the case if the other plane witnesses saw shot it down. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports that the debris found miles from the crash site included "clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains." [2] The secretary of defense says Flight 93 was not shot down.[3] While major media have widely reported that a frantic 911 call was made from Flight 93 stating "We are being hijacked, We are being hijacked," a local Pennsylvania paper reports that the passenger also reported hearing an explosion and seeing smoke coming from the plane, consistent with a shoot down. As the Somerest, PA paper The Daily American states: "[A] passenger locked in a bathroom aboard United Flight 93 called the 911 ... 'We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!' dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer from Westmoreland County quoted the man from a transcript of the call. The man told dispatchers the plane 'was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him,' Cramer said." [4] So we have (1) witness accounts of a second plane in the area, (2) burning debris falling, (3) debris falling up to 8 miles from the crash site, (4) human remains falling miles from the crash site, and (5) reports from a passenger that an explosion was heard near the plane and white smoke was coming from the plane. Do these facts support early reports that Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet? Could the the terrorists have smuggled in and detonated a bomb? At the least these facts appear to be inconsistent with the leading scenario being played in the media that the plane crashed as a result of a struggle for control on board the doomed flight. Assuming the aircraft was shot down, under the circumstances -- other hijackers reasonably connected to the hijackers on Flight 93 using other jets to cause massive casualties on the ground -- it would be difficult to define the act unethical. Indeed, it would have arguably been an heroic act. However, the wrong would be lying to the public about what happened. ___________________________________________________________ [1] Reuters: FBI Cannot Rule Out Shootdown of Penn. Plane. By David Morgan. September 13, 2001. http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/ h/nm/20010913/ts/attack_pennsylvania_dc_4.html [2] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Investigators locate 'black box' from Flight 93; widen search area in Somerset crash. By T. Gibb, J. O'Toole, C. Lash. September 13, 2001. http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp [3] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Somerset crash scene searched; 'hero' may have aborted terror mission. By T. Gibb, C. Lash J. O'Toole. September 12, 2001. Can't reaquire URL via search. [4] Daily American: International terror touches Somerset County. By Sandra Lepley. http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html ============================================================== COMING SOON TO AN INTERNET NEAR YOU: http://www.IanGoddard.Net ============================================================== Unless that one also disappears. Network Solutions "lost" my domain "IanGoddard.com" that I registered first and paid for. Shortly after NS lost it someone else came and registered it. I've sent NS my record of transaction and credit-card receipt, yet they refuse to respond to my requests for an explanation. I'll bet they would never lose the domains for CNN or CBSNews. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt(a)coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

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Flight 93 Questions
by Ian Goddard 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

WAS UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN BY U.S. FIGHTER? (c) 9/14/01 Ian Williams Goddard Yesterday (9/13/01) a Reuters report stated that the FBI cannot rule out that hijacked Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet before it crashed in Pennsylvania. [1] Citing indications of a shoot down, the report states: "Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles away [from the crash site] in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky." Finding debris miles from the crash site indicates that the aircraft was disintegrating well before it hit the ground, as would be the case if the other plane witnesses saw shot it down. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports that the debris found miles from the crash site included "clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains." [2] The secretary of defense says Flight 93 was not shot down.[3] While major media have widely reported that a frantic 911 call was made from Flight 93 stating "We are being hijacked, We are being hijacked," a local Pennsylvania paper reports that the passenger also reported hearing an explosion and seeing smoke coming from the plane, consistent with a shoot down. As the Somerest, PA paper The Daily American states: "[A] passenger locked in a bathroom aboard United Flight 93 called the 911 ... 'We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!' dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer from Westmoreland County quoted the man from a transcript of the call. The man told dispatchers the plane 'was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him,' Cramer said." [4] So we have (1) witness accounts of a second plane in the area, (2) burning debris falling, (3) debris falling up to 8 miles from the crash site, (4) human remains falling miles from the crash site, and (5) reports from a passenger that an explosion was heard near the plane and white smoke was coming from the plane. Do these facts support early reports that Flight 93 was shot down by a US fighter jet? Could the the terrorists have smuggled in and detonated a bomb? At the least these facts appear to be inconsistent with the leading scenario being played in the media that the plane crashed as a result of a struggle for control on board the doomed flight. Assuming the aircraft was shot down, under the circumstances -- other hijackers reasonably connected to the hijackers on Flight 93 using other jets to cause massive casualties on the ground -- it would be difficult to define the act unethical. Indeed, it would have arguably been an heroic act. However, the wrong would be lying to the public about what happened. ___________________________________________________________ [1] Reuters: FBI Cannot Rule Out Shootdown of Penn. Plane. By David Morgan. September 13, 2001. http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/ h/nm/20010913/ts/attack_pennsylvania_dc_4.html [2] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Investigators locate 'black box' from Flight 93; widen search area in Somerset crash. By T. Gibb, J. O'Toole, C. Lash. September 13, 2001. http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp [3] Pittsburg Post-Gazette: Somerset crash scene searched; 'hero' may have aborted terror mission. By T. Gibb, C. Lash J. O'Toole. September 12, 2001. Can't reaquire URL via search. [4] Daily American: International terror touches Somerset County. By Sandra Lepley. http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html ============================================================== COMING SOON TO AN INTERNET NEAR YOU: http://www.IanGoddard.Net ============================================================== Unless that one also disappears. Network Solutions "lost" my domain "IanGoddard.com" that I registered first and paid for. Shortly after NS lost it someone else came and registered it. I've sent NS my record of transaction and credit-card receipt, yet they refuse to respond to my requests for an explanation. I'll bet they would never lose the domains for CNN or CBSNews. ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt(a)coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

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FW: FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS
by Lucky Green 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

Can't beat that deal. --Lucky -----Original Message----- From: info(a)frontsight.com [mailto:info@frontsight.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:40 AM To: Front; Sight; News; Subscribers Subject: FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 12, 2001 CONTACT: Dr. Ignatius Piazza 1.800.987.7719 Fax: 831.684.2137 e-mail: info(a)frontsight.com http://www.frontsight.com FREE GUN TRAINING FOR COMMERCIAL PILOTS LAS VEGAS, NEVADA: In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attack, Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, which claims to be the world leader in providing intensified courses in the defensive use of firearms for private citizens and law enforcement alike, feels they have the answer to stopping commercial airliners from being used as ballistic missiles. Front Sight will train every commercial pilot in the world FREE OF CHARGE in the defensive use of the handgun. Front Sight will accept for training all certified pilots and co-pilots from all commercial airliners that submit a request for training on commercial airliner letterhead, designating the pilot and co-pilot to carry a handgun in the cockpit to defend access to the airliner. The request for training letter must have the notarized signature of the airline's chief executive. Front Sight's Founder and Director, Dr. Ignatius Piazza understands that his offer may offend those who lack resolve in stopping terrorists from turning airliners into weapons of mass destruction. However, he is quick to point out that the World Trade Center attack is a new realm of terror, not previously witnessed in the world. Prior to the World Trade Center attack, terrorists were content to hijack planes and divert them to safe landings in exchange for negotiated release of imprisoned comrades. In extreme cases, terrorists have committed suicide by exploding the grounded plane. Airliners have also been targeted with bombs and possibly missiles to spectacularly explode in flight, killing all on board. The World Trade Center attack was a new form of terrorism, where the commercial airliner, loaded with fuel for a cross country flight is redirected from the cockpit and turned into an accurate missile of mass destruction. Front Sight knows this form of terrorism can be stopped immediately by arming all pilots and co-pilots and training them in the proper methods of defending their cockpits. "Commercial airliners must be willing to take an uncompromising stand that will not allow anyone, under any circumstances to access the controls of an airliner," says Piazza. "The pilot and co-pilot, are responsible for the security of the cockpit. Without a handgun to defend it, the cockpit crew is easily defeated. However, when both pilot and co-pilot are armed and trained by Front Sight, they have the tools, ability, and will to defend themselves and repel the murderous intent of terrorists. In an emergency, the pilot can fly the plane to a safe landing while the co-pilot covers the door of the cockpit- ready and willing to use deadly force to prevent anyone from opening the door." Dennis Vied, a retired TWA Captain with 28 years of experience flying commercial airliners and Front Sight student fully agrees with Front Sight's solution. Captain Vied states, "The terrorists knew that they would face no opposition to the hijacking, once they managed to get on the airplane. All they had to do was threaten to do something to a passenger, and they would be allowed access to the cockpit. If that didn't work, then they just had to hurt somebody, which in this case they did. Apparently they cut the throats of two of the flight attendants. The terrorists knew they would face no armed opposition, because the airline screening process would insure that nobody on the airplane would be armed. We have such an abhorrence to guns that we fail to allow the good people to arm themselves for defense. Therefore they are at the mercy of bad people- in this case the terrorists. I sincerely hope that this is a wakeup call to America. I think they should arm the crews, or at least allow those that want to be armed to do so. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of some crazy son-of-a-bitch armed with a box cutter! How absolutely absurd! There is so much emphasis on prevention, and precious little emphasis on the ultimate lines of defense." Aaron Benedetti, a United Airline 747 co-pilot since 1990 is a Platinum member at Front Sight and has already attended Front Sight courses in defensive handgun, tactical shotgun, and practical rifle. Through Front Sight's training, Benedetti is ready, willing and able to defend the cockpit of his aircraft if given the proper tools and authority to do so. Benedetti states, "We get recurrent training regarding hijacking and security procedures, but the training centers around placating and negotiating with the terrorists to safely land the plane. We are told not to make any aggressive move and to work toward a calm outcome. The World Trade Center disaster is a real blind spot in our training. The attack reveals that perhaps the only way the pilots could have stopped it would have been to deny access to the cockpit and stop the terrorists from taking over the controls of the plane by any means possible. In the future, we should consider that with the cockpit doors locked and the co-pilot guarding the door with a handgun, calm negotiations can still take place via intercom to land the plane safely thus avoiding another World Trade Center scenario." Aaron Benedetti recommends all airlines to take advantage of Front Sight's solution and offer. He returns to Front Sight later his year for further training on his own. Lieutenant Bob Redmond, SWAT Commander of Nye County Sheriff's Department concurs that Front Sight's training is exactly what the commercial airliners need and that they should immediately begin sending their pilots to Front Sight. Redmond, who sends his SWAT officers to Front Sight for firearms and tactical training states, "Front Sight's training exceeds levels offered by most if not all law enforcement agencies throughout the country. Front Sight's training is so good that I want every officer we have in the department to attend every course Front Sight offers. If airlines sent their pilots to Front Sight, it would be like having SWAT officers in the sky." Mark Donovan, a pilot for Southwest Airlines, who has taken over ten Front Sight courses in the last two years finds the current situation of unarmed pilots rather incredulous. Donavan explains, "The political climate in commercial aviation prior to the World Trade Center attack has not been conducive to arming pilots. In fact, just the opposite has occurred. Airlines have disarmed pilots to the point where a terrorist with a box cutter can take over control of a plane because no one is armed to defend the plane or themselves. Yet, numerous federal agencies are allowed to carry a gun on commercial airlines, including such dubiously qualified agencies as, Bureau of Engraving and Printing, Department of Agriculture, Department of Education, and the Smithsonian Institution! Why are federal agents from these obscure agencies allowed to carry a gun on board when a pilot with firearms training from Front Sight Firearms Training Institute is not allowed? My training at Front Sight far exceeds anything the federal government offers to these agencies." Donovan continues, "If we, as pilots are not given the means and authority to defend our aircraft as a last means of defense, then who will? It is apparent that time was not available to negotiate with the madmen in the World Trade Center attack. Clearly, a properly trained flight crew with a handgun could have saved countless lives. Front Sight offers this training. I urge all federal decision makers to seriously examine Front Sight's solution to the problem. I believe it is the only credible answer to stopping another horrendous tragedy." Front Sight is the Solution to Gun Violence Piazza reiterates, "Front Sight is truly part of the solution to gun violence in this country. Everyone agrees that law enforcement should have the very best training available. Front Sight provides it. And everyone agrees, regardless of what side of gun control one stands, that if law abiding private citizens are going to own firearms they should be trained. Front Sight provides such training to levels that exceeds the law enforcement community. Front Sight now offers the solution to stopping and forever preventing another World Trade Center attack by training commercial airline pilots to be that last line of defense for their passengers, airline, and our country. Front Sight stands ready, willing, and able to serve." Dr. Ignatius Piazza 1.800.987.7719 Front Sight Firearms Training Institute www.frontsight.com Captain Dennis Vied, retired TWA Pilot 925.455.0133 Aaron Benedetti, United Airlines Co-Pilot 925.454.5214 Lt.Bob Redmond, Nye County SWAT Commander 775.751.7002 Mark Donovan, SouthWest Pilot 702.270.3912 http://www.frontsight.com

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plz tell me abt free yourname.com
by WAQAR HUSSAIN 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

plz tell me abtfree yourname.com S.WAQAR HUSSAINGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

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Re: A Brevital Moment (was..Ignore Aimee Farr)
by keyser-soze＠hushmail.com 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >At 08:26 PM 9/13/2001 -0500, Aimee Farr wrote: >>Bell's "Assassination Politics" put cypherpunks on some protective >intelligence agendas. It would not be implausible to assume you were being >monitored to see if you "run" with the seeded assassination memes, if only >for analytical purposes. These matters are taken seriously by those charged >with the care of protected persons. (Contrary to what some here would have >you believe, subtlety can get you a much higher threat-rating than overtly >threatening correspondence.) > >Jim is a fool though not a dangerous one. No one should consider implementing any betting pools till there is enough cover traffic from "legit" digital cash apps. If one were to be created this would be an ideal time and Ben Laden the ideal target. How many Americans would consider creating such a pool to be evil? > >> Rising to the bait, debating whether such-and-such a purpose is >> behind Farr's postings, speculating on Farr's true intent, all >> this does is spur on the postings, the baiting, the provocation. >> Just say "no" to responding to ANY of Farr's postings, and I >> would almost put money that the behavior will extinguish within a week. > >>Baiting? Provocation? No, a caveat. Do not tolerate behavior of that nature. >It subjects you all to scrutiny and mischaracterization. > >>What about Mr. K-S that hides behind his hushmail jacket > >Don't forget the power tie ;-) > >>and asks for names >and addresses.....why doesn't somebody cuss him out? > >What, for protected speech and actions? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Hush 2.0 wmAEARECACAFAjuhpoAZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV n5ptAJ9QKvtPlXbf1nP8ee0uAVTMq4sTiwCgr5PcgT1k7+cwVzKb3BjuwChoCv4= =8WNj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Independent News - Coded warnings raise the spectre of a mole inside the White House
by Jim Choate 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=93993 (And, Yes, I draw exception to his use of the word missile also...) -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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US ruling out Iraq as attack sponsor in bid for coalition
by Jim Choate 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/ss_iraq_09_13.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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3 Airline Employees Test Security - It fails...
by Jim Choate 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010913/aponline231050_000.h… -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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(no subject)
by Nomen Nescio 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

> that I have succeeded in compiling Mixmaster 2.9beta23 on the FreeBSD 4.4 > release candidate, and in concert with other cpunks, am putting together a > 2.9beta24 package which includes a number of patches recently circulated. And you will, presumably, post the availability of same when done? I too am readying a remailer, but am holding back until I can build a cdrom based server, for one so I don't need to worry about hackers, for two so I don't have to worry about logs. Also want to make that box a freenet and mojo server. I'm running 2.9beta23 now, seems to work okay, but haven't published the keys yet because of the above. And since they'd be changing soon anyway.

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Re: Pick your trusted encryption provider and communicate with whomever you want in this world.
by Tim May 14 Sep '01

14 Sep '01

On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 06:22 PM, chefren wrote: Cypherpunks, I am forwarding this complete with names of cc:s attached to show you some of the enemies out there. I've gotten several personal e-mails. I am asking Declan, my friend, NOT to forward my posts to his various lists., Too many statists who gibber as this fool "chefren" does. (I have no idea whether "chefron" and "Rob Carlson" are the same person or not...part of the chaos of having my stuff sent to other mailing lists. For now, I am assuming it is only this "chefron" creep who deserves to be blasted.) > On 13 Sep 01, at 19:20, Declan McCullagh forwarded and Rob Carlson > wrote: > >> We have to urge our fellow citizens not to give up their >> basic civil rights, especially not the right to engage in >> private conversations over distance and share ideas in >> private that others (including those in power) might not >> agree with. > > > "Right to engage in private conversations over distance"? > > Our =society= invented means to have conversations over > distance, nobody is born with those capabilities. Those > means combined with strong encryption have lot's of good > uses but also bear a serious threat for our society. > > As foreseen by experts quite some time our society heads > for regulated encryption. Basically: Pick your trusted > encryption provider and communicate with whoever you want > in this world. This is a disgraceful argument, which I have no particular interest in arguing with you on. Declan, apparently you have been forwarding my posts to you one or more of your lists. Please do not do so. I have no interest in receiving arguments from some of the untermenschen who choose to subscribe to some of your lists. To you untermenschen: don't send your socialist/statist arguments to me personally. If you want to argue, join the lists I am on. --Tim May

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