- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Entropy vs Random Bits
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:50 PM 9/20/95, David Van Wie wrote: >I've been watching the debate and discussion unfold on usable sources of >random data from environments, user actions, etc. I have a vocabulary >question (and something of a bone to pick as a mathematician and physicist). Well, I was trained as a physicist also, but am completely comfortable with the Shannon definition of information-theoretic entropy. In fact, through my readings about entropy in computations (cites below), I now view traditional thermodynamic entropy as a special case of information theory! >Usually, the term "entropy" is being used to characterize one of two >different things: (i) random data, as in "300 bits of entropy," and (ii) the >"randomness" of data (i.e. high degree of variance in a statistic drawn from >it), as in "you can find a lot of entropy in the low order bits of a timed >interval between keystrokes." I suspect that there are other shades of >meaning intended in other uses as well. > >This is odd. The term entropy describes an aspect of thermodynamic >equlibrium in physical systems. Although sometimes used as a synonym for >"random," that definition is vernacular, not technical. In fact, there is >no meaningful relationship between "entropy" and random data of the type >described in the postings related to seed values. In the presense of a >perfectly suitable and precise mathematical term (i.e. random), why invent >new terms? Why use them to mean at least two different things? Entropy has been used with an information theory context since the 1950s, by Claude Shannon and others. I disagree that there is "no meaningful relationship between "entropy" and random data of the type described in the postings related to seed values." The bits of entropy we are talking about are the "bits derived from a physical process or a user action which are effectively from a random process." (Granted, the internal thoughts of a user swirling the mouse around are not quite as "random" as, say, alpha decay, but for all intents and purposes no "prediction" can be made of the mouse motions, at certain levels of detail, and the bits dervived are in fact effectively random. We are not "living in a state of sin," to paraphrase Von Neumann, in using these bits and assuming them to be random.) Good books on the incredibly fascinating aspects of information theory, and expecially algorithmic information theory: * Cover and Thomas, "Elements of Information Theory." A good textbook on information theory, covering gambling (!), prediction, and the Chaitin-Kolmogoroff outlook. * Chaitin, Gregory, "Algorithmic Information Theory." A bit dense to read, and Chaitin has written several more popular accounts for "Scientific American" and similar places. * Zurek, Wojciech, editor, "Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Infromation." This collection of great articles shows the role of entropy in infromation theory, and why the thermodynamic definition is essentially a variant of the more fundamental information-theoretic definition. Enjoy! --Tim May Notice: With 1000 people on the Cypherpunks list, and many on other lists I am on, nearly every article I write generates at least one question, request for more information, dispute with my choice of words, etc. I have been trying to respond to these, usually privately, but the burden has become too much, and I no longer plan to respond to trivial or ephemeral points. If you don't hear from me, this is why. Some requests for pointers to information will still be handled, but I advise people to learn how to use the archives and/or search tools. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Council of Europe proposes to outlaw strong encryption (fwd)
by wb8foz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

********************************************************** > SUBJECT: Euroclipper > Apologies if this is old news to you folks, but thought I should > pass it on. Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:42:39 -0400 Subject: IP: Council of Europe proposes to outlaw strong encryption According to an article in `Communications Week International', the 34-nation Council of Europe has agreed to outlaw strong encryption products which do not make keys available to governments. The article, `Euro-Clipper chip scheme proposed', is on the front page of the magazine's issue 151, dated 18th September, which arrived in my mail this morning. It relates that the policy was approved on the 8th September at Strasbourg by the Council, and coincides with an attempt by the European Commission to propose a pan-European encryption standard. The Council - unlike the Commission - has no statutory powers to enforce its recommendations. However, Peter Csonka, the chairman of the committee that drafted the document (and an administrative officer at the Council's division of crime problems) says that `it is rare for countries to reject Council of Europe recommendations'. The proposal would make telecomms operators responsible for decrypting traffic and supplying it to governments when asked. It would also `change national laws to enable judicial authorities to chase hackers across borders'. Opposition to this measure was expressed by Mike Strezbek, VP responsible for European telecomms at JP Morgan, who said that his organisation `will challenge any attempt to limit the power of our network encryption technologies very strongly'. Czonka said that the Council had given consideration to business interests but had tries to strike a balance between privacy and justice. However, `it remains possible that cryptography is available to the public which cannot be deciphered,' his document says. `This might lead to the conclusion to put restrictions on the possession, distribution, or use of cryptography.' Apparently another international organisation, the OECD, has called a conference of its members in December to devise a strategy on encryption. I for one will be making clear to my MP that his stand on this issue will determine how I cast my ballot at the next election. I note that John Major stated in a 1994 parliamentary written reply to David Shaw MP that the government did not intend to legislate on data encryption. I am disppointed that government policy has changed to the point of supporting the Council of Europe, and that this change has sneaked through during the parliamentary recess. Ross Anderson ------- End of Forwarded Message -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz(a)nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead........vr vr vr vr.................20915-1433

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Re: FROM A FRIEND . . . (the joys of boating)
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:00 PM 9/21/95, Landon Dyer wrote: > here's a possible bullshit wrinkle. i'm not a lawyer, but one of my >bosses was, once. > > said boss owned a boat that was of canadian registry. he was a >canadian citizen with a green card. he *claimed* that, even when >docked in the SF bay area, his boat was technically considered >canadian territory, due to some maritime law malarky. US authorities >theoretically had to go through various hoops to legally board his >vessel. > > i wouldn't try to halt a SWAT team, or even the local fuzz, with >this tidbit of legal gaga. but doing crypto development on such a >vessel might hold up in court for something as squishy as ITAR. I'm skeptical of this, as boating friends of mine tell me they are much more easily boarded by the various water.cops who check for compliance with navigation laws, with drug laws, with Customs laws, etc. Within the 3-mile limits, or further out (?), broad discretion is given to the water.cops who tell you to "Prepare to be boarded." That a ship or boat is of Panamanian, Liberian, or even Candian registry does not seem to have any effect on enforcement of drug-smuggling, gun-running, waste-dumping, or reckless-manouvering laws. I've already expressed my views on the hype surrounding the "This T-Shirt Has Been Declared to be a Munition" hoopla, so I won't draw the obvious inference about whether someone wearing an RSA-in-Perl t-shirt while scrubbing their decks will be shot on sight. (Was Randy Weaver's wife wearing an illegal t-shirt? Hmmmhhh, many conspiracy angles here!) --Tim May Notice: With 1000 people on the Cypherpunks list, and many on other lists I am on, nearly every article I write generates at least one question, request for more information, dispute with my choice of words, etc. I have been trying to respond to these, usually privately, but the burden has become too much, and I no longer plan to respond to trivial or ephemeral points. If you don't hear from me, this is why. Some requests for pointers to information will still be handled, but I advise people to learn how to use the archives and/or search tools. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Persistent Services Needed
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

One of the problems we're facing with "Cypherpunks" services is that they are catch-as-catch-can, or, bluntly, "flaky." Archive sites stop being archives, remailers vanish overnight (*), and other experiments pop up and then vanish with regularity. (My favorite example, and one which always makes me smile, is the example of a remailer in Europe a couple of years ago which became inoperative with the message: "The foo remailer will stop operating tonight because I have to take my laptop with me for the summer to Portugal.") I'm not criticizing these folks. Rather, I'm just saying something pretty obvious, that _persistence_ is important. This probably means commercialization, or formalized business relationships. With such persistent business set-ups, "the show must go on." Another reason for digital money. --Tim May Notice: With 1000 people on the Cypherpunks list, and many on other lists I am on, nearly every article I write generates at least one question, request for more information, dispute with my choice of words, etc. I have been trying to respond to these, usually privately, but the burden has become too much, and I no longer plan to respond to trivial or ephemeral points. If you don't hear from me, this is why. Some requests for pointers to information will still be handled, but I advise people to learn how to use the archives and/or search tools. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Repeated Words/characters in Password/Phrase
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:11 PM 11/14/95, Ted Cabeen wrote: >Do repeated words in a PGP passphrase make the pass phrase less secure than >a passphrase without any repeated words? And on the same note, do repeated >letters in a UNIX password make that password easier to break? I can't seem >to find anything in my books on cryptography that mention this. Thanks. More of an information theory question than a crypto question. There are no simple answers to this question, but some examples will help: The password "foo" is not very good, and "foofoo" is only slightly better. And "foofoofoo" is slightly better, and so on, to a point. But "foofoo....foo" is not N times better than a single "foo," because the _pattern_ is simply desribed: "repeat "foo" N times." Thus, the information content or entropy of "foofoofoo....foo" is not N times greater than the entropy of "foo." A some dictionary attacks which would trivially find "foo" will not find "foofoo," or "foofoofoo," etc., so this could be a great help. More sophisticated dictionary attacks may of course take the 30,000 or so most common names, words, places, and then do various permutations, reversals, repetitions, etc. So this is why there is not likely to be a simple answer to your question. Repeating words in a passphrase can make the passphrase easier to remember (such as "thequickquickbrownfox") and make certain kinds of attacks harder, but with not as much of an increase in entropy at the increased number of raw characters might otherwise suggest. Other "heuristics" (simple rules of thumb) for passphrases are contained in the PGP documents, and in numerous other places: avoid names, add nonstandard English keyboard characters liberally (even if using real words), etc. The "best" passphrases, it almost goes without saying, are the longest and most "unpredictable," so that "7f#qp)djQ10hB%3t+1?U4SVp5" is much superior to "%foo%foo". In the real world, where passphrases must be memorized, "long and random" is an elusive goal, which has to be weighed against the risk of other attacks (such as capturing keystrokes with a sofware monitor, or from afar with a van Eyk antenna, etc.). Me, I use a nonsense phrase which has meaning to me, with a few garbage characters added to confuse things further. I don't think my passphrase is the weak link. --Tim May Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Project: a standard cell random number generator
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:50 PM 9/20/95 -0700, you wrote: > In this sense, NSA ought to be *encouraging* Intel and >IBM and Motorola to put "generate random bits" instructions into >their instruction sets... Is _that_ what was going on with Pentium division? Less seriously, thoguh, a UART might be a good place to add a random number source, since it may be able to extract randomness from communication line jitter, is usually an easily replaceable part on most machines, and communicates at a higher speed than you're likely to need for most randomness applications. #--- # Bill Stewart, Freelance Information Architect, stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # Phone +1-510-247-0664 Pager/Voicemail 1-408-787-1281 #---

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Re: Jim Bell - Murderous Terrorist
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [while I am replying to this anonymous, flaming message from what MAY be a stable nym, I specifically request a consensus opinion on whether I should continue to comment in this way. Some people say that a discussion of my "Assassination Politics" idea (containing, as it does, issues of good encryption and digital cash implemented with good encryption and blinding) is "on-topic" here, but on the other hand it does seem to bring out the flamers among us. I would be happy to go either way: To continue to respond to what is obviously a strenuous debate, or to ignore the issue here, in this area, and to direct the debate to another.] At 07:06 PM 2/4/96 -0800, jdoe-0007(a)alpha.c2.org wrote: >Dr. Vulis writes: > >AO> Alan Olsen <alano(a)teleport.com> writes: > >AO> I consider Mr. Bell to be a crank and a loon. > >DV> You're certainly entitled to your opinion. You might be interested to know that >DV> I consider Jim Bell to be highly intelligent, knowledgeable, and overall nice >DV> person. I'm particularly impressed by his calm and restrained response to your >DV> provocations. I've also formed a rather negative opinion of you, based on your >DV> actions in this incident. > >Jim Bell has advocated nothing less than paid death squads No, I haven't. The term "squad" implies more than one person. In practice, I think those people who are motivated to collect the anonymous awards will be individually self-selected people, and will not come in the form of "squads." If anything, the use of a "squad" defeats the entire purpose of the anonymity provided by my idea: Quite literally, nobody in the world except the killer himself needs to know who he is. >using crypto as a >means to hide payment to these murderous terrorists. <sigh!> Aside from the fact that the difference between "terrorists" and "freedom fighters" is primarily a matter of point of view, in effect you are merely objecting to people being able to defend themselves anonymously, by proxy as it were. > If you can find a conspirator >of murder as " highly intelligent, knowledgeable, and overall nice person" then >you also are in need of immediate mental health intervention. As my essay makes clear, the whole purpose of the system is to KEEP most people from being "conspirators of murder" by the legal definition. You may disapprove of people being able to defend themselves from government abuse, but I actually encourage it. >Should the mainstream media ever get wind of Bell's lunacy it will be one more >nail in the crypto-coffin spurring the Feds and international anti-crypto efforts to >a frenzy. As you know well, my current opinion is that the theory is tantamount to being inevitable. If anybody is worked up into a "frenzy," it'll be because they are afraid I might actually be correct. Anyone who is really convinced I am wrong will be quite calm, because they "know" nothing will come of my idea. > Bell is either a total fucking lunatic of the extreme right wing For the record, I was a minarchist libertarian for about 19 years, until about a year ago when I realized that pure anarchy (with protection for rights) could actually be made stable. I have as little sympathy for the "extreme right wing" as I do the "extreme left wing." And as I'm happy to point out, I upset both of their "apple carts" just as effectively, so both categories have "good" reason to hate me. >(having >read his suck ups posts supporting General Linda Thompson) This is an extremely odd assertion. While I have certainly heard of Linda Thompson (the highly controversial Indiana lawyer) I don't recall having written much about her, and certainly not on the Internet and certainly not within the last year or so. I don't think I've ever "defended" her, although I have occasionally criticized a few of her critics as buffoons. Because they WERE buffoons! (This does not automatically make Linda Thompson look any better, however. In fact, the only communication I've ever seen from her on the subject of "Assassination Politics" was actually critical. I responded, correcting some false conclusions of hers, and I never heard anything more from her. Even so, I challenge this guy to show (or even describe the "where and when" of these "suck up posts." > or an agent provocateur for the Feds. This is rich! I've proposed a system which may spell inevitable doom for the Feds no matter what they do, no matter what they try, and this guy tries to claim that I'm an "agent provocateur" for them! In past posts I've mentioned that I carefully considered the question of whether or not my posting would help or hinder the adoption of the "Assassination Politics" idea, and I came to the conclusion that the worst situation would be if the government could keep its ultimate weaknesses disguised for a few more years. That's why I published when I did. The first person to think of an "Assassination Politics" idea was probably some well-paid apparatchik in the NSA, who (quite opposite of my position) was terrified that it might come true. > One is as bad as the other. To quote your own >words to Mr. Olsen; " I've also formed a rather negative opinion of you, based >on your actions in this incident." > >AO> He has no interest in any sort of honest discussion. > >DV> Honest or dishonest, the discussion of Jim's political views has nothing >DV> to do with encryption. > >His plans for death squads success DEPENDS on the anonymity provided by >CRYPTO! Some anti-gunners argue that the public shouldn't be allowed to own guns because they might do something wrong with them. They are fools. If anti-crypto people take the same position with respect to crypto, they are even WORSE fools. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com Klaatu Burada Nikto "Something is going to happen. Something... Wonderful!" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMRbXR/qHVDBboB2dAQFdEgQApk8IhefbWiA9+Ae6ypaHWA6216yTZvYJ Jox1G/fpdToYeQpfQF6ARCl1dAmLjq7qSe5chJo4IF8W7sMbtSiOKMCNY8xIG6IL cS3XTRXELyNX8YEsHy7A8bYyaKe0J2X4M1MEcmWqVjt4HiaQ4dConh0pm7zc/5wy hXTDsvIEaQc= =D087 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Fraud Can Flourish Without the Internet
by an5877＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The New York Times Letters Thursday, September 21, 1995 Fraud Can Flourish Without the Internet To the Editor: Your Sept. 19 front-page article on the discovery by two University of California graduate students of a flaw in Netscape, the software used for purchases over the Internet's World Wide Web, raises a number of obvious questions. First, who needs high tech to per- petrate fraud? Any unscrupulous commercial employee could use or sell your credit card number without employing technology. Every time you hand your card to a waiter in a restaurant, it disap- pears for several minutes. The de- partment store clerks and gas sta- tion attendants you deal with also have access to your card number. How secure is that? Ever give your credit card num- ber over the phone to make a purchase from a mail-order house? Or to secure a reservation at a hotel? Who's to say that the em- ployees you're speaking with are honest? Or that your phone is no tapped? Or theirs? I shop on the Internet; I may get ripped off. What's my liability? Fifty bucks -- sames as the other scenarios I've described. That's in my credit agreement with the card issuer. So why all the hoopla? Is credit card fraud significantly more preva- lent on the Internet than in other modes of purchasing? Or is the banking industry whip- ping up hysteria among purchasers to curb fraud losses? Was the work of those graduate students funded by someone -- directly or indirect- ly? If so, by whom? A banking consortium? A high-tech company working on some patentable security scheme? ROBERT HERRIG Peekskill, N.Y., Sept. 19, 1995 The writer is a systems consultant. DEADBEAT <na5877(a)anon.penet.fi> for the I.L.F. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBFAgUBMGFgp/FZTpBW/B35AQFiuAF/c7DUidkXEe1oBdRpsmfzkXzii44qFPQ3 YQui2lORNA8RUaWiB25poSLFNdiBMJnX =duqf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. If you reply to this message, your message WILL be *automatically* anonymized and you are allocated an anon id. Read the help file to prevent this. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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ssl-encrypted web server comparison
by sameer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've started a small summary of various features of encrypting web servers that I know about. http://www.c2.org/apachessl#compare Please send your comments criticisms and suggestions. Thanks. -- sameer Voice: 510-601-9777 Community ConneXion FAX: 510-601-9734 The Internet Privacy Provider Dialin: 510-658-6376 http://www.c2.org (or login as "guest") sameer(a)c2.org

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Re: Munitions shirt (again)
by liberty＠gate.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Cypherpunks: I sent this yesterday, but it appears toad may have eaten it. Here it is again. JMR -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Ian Goldberg wrote: <snip> >>So, any consensus as to whether it's actually illegal to do so? I >>remember some disagreement a few weeks ago that AFAIK wasn't resolved. And Tim replied: >The _consensus_ here seems to be: "This t-shirt is illegal to wear in front >of non-Americans," judging by the comments here. And since _I_ started all this trouble with a private e-mail to Futplex; I'll now jump in saying again, [IANAL]: "This t-shirt may or may not be illegal to wear in front of non-Americans," from my reading a while back of the dense text of this silly law, [I'll spare all of you a quote of it, but there's text that MIGHT be interpreted that way.] >The _reality_ is quite different, I think, and the "this shirt is illegal" >hype is, in my opinion, just that, hyperbole. I agree with Tim that actual enforcement of this silly a law is unlikely, especially in Ian's case right now, and *especially* during our US (election) "silly season," for obvious reasons. The availability of strong encryption is unlikely to be a major issue during this election cycle, despite Cypherpunk efforts, and enforcement of this dumb law would be a "gift" to those of us who think it should be. [I hope I'm wrong here, but I think you're safe, Ian.:)] >Even hyperbull, too. I wouldn't go *that* far, though. Poorly written, ambiguous, statist<g> laws can be interpreted in any number of ways and for a variety of reasons having little (or nothing) to do with justice. <sigh> JMR <snip> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Freedom isn't Freeh iQCVAwUBMGBvrW1lp8bpvW01AQFj1AP8C1RKpayv6V15sTBLiFLWV4tlfWRUuLfm JVWgeUeHUFxBV1EttbGv30iTmwlCJmBab/wLUag9S57DLZ6Ajed7jQe0rpra56Nl OgmM1gGU8nJJazYeqiWbYrOc/VSheSqQVLAj+vOoufW8XnU1iFkXQnRziCcyO2Nc bto4hKBrFWY= =qlSx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Regards, Jim Ray "People are deceived in masses, but enlightened one at a time." -- Dick Boddie. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- PGP key Fingerprint 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 Key id. # E9BD6D35 James Milton Ray <liberty(a)gate.net> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Help Phil! email zldf(a)clark.net or see http://www.netresponse.com/zldf _______________________________________________________________________

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