December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Free-market monopolization features...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, This is the theory in its current working version: An unregulated (free-market) economy will inherently monopolize when, but not necessarily only if, the following are present: - the market is saturated, in other words the number of consumers at any given time are equal to or less than the service providers ability to provide that service (or resource). This means the long-term survival of firms is a function of retained market share and raw resource share control/ownership. - the technology and/or start-up costs are high in material and intellectual factors. This minimizes the potential for new providers to start up. Providers will also require non-disclosure and other mechanisms to reduce sharing of information and cross-communications except under controlled conditions. Expect an increase in certifications and implimentation standards required to do business with the more succesful of these providers. - an individual or small group of service providers have a small but distinct efficiency advantage in technology, manufacturing, or marketing. Over a long-enough time this market advantage will grow and as a result widen the 'technology gap' between firms. - expect the most efficient firms to share their profit with the critical intellectual contributors. This further reduces the problem of cross-communication and new provider start-up. - expect to see the more successful providers to join in co-ops with the less succesful providers. This will be under the surreptitous goal of 'developing technology'. It's actual goal will be to cause these smaller firms to commit resources to such enterprises. As soon as it is strategicaly advantagous the primary providers will break-off the co-op. This has the effect of further reducing the ability of the smaller providers to react in a timely manner to market changes or develop new technology due to resource starvation. - expect to see the less efficient providers to combine in an effort to reap the benefits of shared market share and resources. Unless this partnering provides a more efficient model and there is sufficient time for that efficiency to develop these new providers will eventualy fail or be joined with other providers. - expect to see the primary provider buy those less efficient providers that don't fail completely. These purchases will be as a result of some new or unexpected technology that will significantly increase the market share of the primary provider -or- it will be with the goal of eliminating this secondary technology and forcing those market shares to do without or use the primary providers technology. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Free-market monopolization features... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, I left one out... Forwarded message: > From: Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> > Subject: Free-market monopolization features... > Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:35:16 -0600 (CST) > An unregulated (free-market) economy will inherently monopolize when, but > not necessarily only if, the following are present: - initialy prices for services will be low to promote purchasing but as providers obtain larger market shares their prices will increase over time and out of step with inflation and other market forces in order to widen the profit gap. The strategy is one of 'use it or starve'. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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New Credit Rating System Coming [CNN]
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > NEW CREDIT RATING SYSTEM ON HORIZON > > graphic February 5, 1998 > Web posted at: 2:38 p.m. EST (1938 GMT) > > NEW YORK (AP) -- Within months, retailers will be able to use a new > computerized credit-rating system to decide not only whether they'll > take your check or debit card, but how big a check you can write. > > Banks will be able to use the system to determine whether they will > let you open a checking account, and what kind of fees you will pay. > > Deluxe Corp., the nation's biggest check printer, has joined Fair, > Isaac & Co., a credit scoring company, and Acxiom Corp., a data > warehouse, to create the system for rating a merchant's risk of > accepting checks and debit cards. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: the best justice money can buy --Lessig (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:13:00 -0800 (PST) > From: mark(a)unicorn.com > Subject: Re: the best justice money can buy --Lessig (fwd) > Jim Choate (ravage(a)ssz.com) wrote: > >If there were no copyright nobody would have any reason to market software > >or much else for that matter. > > So I presume that Linux doesn't exist[1]? And, for that matter, I make my > living writing software which is given away for free... So do I, and I bet both our incomes combined doesn't add up to 15 minutes of Bill G's and it won't. From a market perspective we're flies on the back of great elephant. Please be so kind as to describe how and why this marketing mechanism (copyleft) will succed? I've been using and supporting Linux since 1993 (SSZ is listed as a source site in the back of 'Running Linux' since day one) in this manner neither I or anyone else has gotten rich. Linus made so much money off it that he went to work for a company in So. Cali. writing fully commercial software... > [1] Yes, I'm aware the GPL uses copyright to enforce its conditions, but > it's copright-free in the important sense: anyone can copy Linux and use > it with no fear of black ninjas at their door. It's copyrighted in the important sense in that it uses the copyright to enforce its conditions. That is just as important as the marketing decisions made by it. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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RE Fingerprints and EF Georgia
by WebWarrior3＠InfoWar.Com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Yup, EF-Georgia http://www.efga.org has had an ongoing project dealing with fingerprinting for DL's This is in reply to Jim Burns' post: "If your interested in this problem, I believe that the Georgia wing of the EFF is mounting a campaign against fingerprinting on driver's licenses. Can't remember the URL for it though..." EF Georgia has consistantly had some mighty fine information on their mail list, still on topic too for the most part. Scott R. Brower Electronic Frontiers Florida http://www.efflorida.org BTW...neither EFGA nor EFFlorida, or as far as I know, any other EF group... is affiliated with EFF in any way but certain principals which bind us together in a common cause.

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Re: Most elegant wording against privacy/law-enforcement "balance"
by jim＠mentat.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Guy skribis: > What are the most elegant rebuttals to politicians saying we > need Key Recovery as a "reasonable balance between the needs of > law enforcement vs. freedom of crypto"? I don't know how elegant it is, but here's my response: Compromising the public's right to privacy gives away not only our own rights, but those of our descendants. The government must make an extraordinary case to justify undermining those rights, and so far it has not done so. The most detailed research on the issue is a study by Dorothy Denning and William Baugh investigating the extent to which crypto has interfered with law enforcement's ability to get convictions: their bottom line was that crypto has not in fact interfered: law enforcement has been able to complete their investigations using other means. There's no demonstrated need for Government Access to Crypto Keys (GACK), so there's no need to compromise away our privacy. Jim Gillogly jim(a)acm.org

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RE: The Doors: Strange Days #3
by doorlist＠doors.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

WELCOME to The Doors Collectors Magazines Strange Days News Emailer Vol. 3 The Celebration Has Just Begun! STRANGE DAYS MEMORABILIA NEWS ITEMS: Congratulations to the five Doors Autographed Box Set winners! These Doors box sets were signed by Ray, John, and Robby on the front cover of the inside book and were given away to random people from our Strange Days Email List. The winners were: Jim Kearns (Camillus, NY), Ainslee Rogers (Hamilton, Canada), Suzie Williams (Harrogate, TN), and Barry Abbott (Ermington, Austrailia), and Laura Pritchett (Missoula, MT). This contest added over 1,000 people to our email list, so watch out for promotions similar to this in the future! The Doors Tour Equipment from our last emailer is still available. One envious person on the net is saying that these items aren't authentic... Vince Treanor (The Doors Road Manager) wanted me to pass along the message that he would be happy to talk to any prospective buyers who believe this bullshit. Call me to set up a three way call to Vince. Prospective buyers only please! Recently lots of new memorabilia items have turned up due to the release of the box set. The rest of this issue of the Strange Days News Emailer is dedicated solely to new items that are both "Wanted" and are "For Sale". If you arent into collecting Doors memorabilia, you still might want to read on; Ive tried to put a little news into each entry. Enjoy! For more info about how to order, please go to: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/ STRANGE DAYS MEMORABILIA ITEMS FOR SALE: *** The Doors Albums on Postage Stamps! Late last month the island of St. Vincent issued a set of six stamps which commemorated the 30th anniversary of The Doors first LP. Never before has any country issued such a complete set of stamps to honor an artists complete catalogue of studio material before! Each stamp for each Doors album! The Doors Collectors Magazine has a number of these stamp sets available right now for $10 per sheet (eight stamps per sheet.) While supplies last we will also give you a FREE collector portfolio ($20 value) to keep your stamps in if you buy the complete set of six stamps at the same time ($60 + $4.50 s&h). For more information, please see: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/other/sv_stamp.html *** Autographed Box Sets (w/ Ray, John, and Robbys sigs) We have a few of them available for sale at $175 plus postage. Please email first because our supply wont last long! *** "A New Epitaph For Pere-Lachaise" Poster with poem by Jan Eloise Morris. This 24x36 poster is in its fourth year of world-wide distribution. The photograph was taken in 1968 by Doors photographer, Paul Ferrara. Jim was captured in a rare moment with sunlight falling on his shoulders in front of the Observatory in Griffith Park in Los Angeles, California. The poster's publication in 1994 marked the only time another artist's poetry has been authorized to appear with Morrison's image. Jans association with The Doors Collectors Magazine affords us the exclusive opportunity to offer signed, dated copies only through this web site. Price: $20 includes shipping U.S. (please add $5 for delivery outside of the U.S.) For more information, please see: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/posters/epitaph.html *** "My Eyes Have Seen You" The most visually important book on The Doors that was ever published is now available through The Doors Collectors Magazine! This limited edition book (of 1,500 copies) was put together by Jerry Prochnicky (author, Break On Through) and Joe Russo (lead singer, The Soft Parade). 150 pages of both color and B&W photos. Highly recommended! Price: $20 (plus $4.50 s&h) For more information, please see: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/books/myeyes.html *** Autographed 5" x 7" B&W Promotional Photo of The Doors signed by all four Doors: Given away to members of The Doors official fan club back in 1968. Very rare! Framed. Excellent condition. While some of these photos have been suspect to not being all theyre cracked up to be, this one comes with Doors Collectors Magazine Guarantee & Certificate of Authenticity. Price: $2,500 (plus $4.50 s&h) *** Original "Jim Morrison Film Festival" / HWY Poster Even if you dont want (or cant afford) this poster, you have to check it out! It is the most incredible original Jim Morrison poster ever made and one of the rarest! This poster was folded as it was stored so it does have damage, but looks great framed even still. Price: $2,200 (plus $4.50 s&h) For more information, please see: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/posters/hwyposter.html *** An American Prayer Acetate. We have a private collection that we are offering for sale which includes test pressings of An American Prayer LP. These copies came from someone who was directly responsible for many production decisions on the An American Prayer LP release. Acetates are temporary albums good for playing only a few times that are necessary to check how the sound will be when the tape gets pressed onto the actual vinyl. There are probably only these copies for the entire An American Prayer release in existence! Both have their original Capital Records Mastering Jackets and are individually are described below: Copy #1: dated 9-20-78 Exc. Condition. One double sided album that contains all songs. Price $500 (plus $4.50 s&h) Copy #2: dated 10-13-78 Exc. Condition. A pair of two single sided albums that are missing two songs on each side. Price: $650 (plus $4.50 s&h) For a complete listing of ALL OTHER items from this same private collection, check out: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/museum/private_collection.html *** The Church of The Doors Deadly Doorknell If youre a hard core Doors fan youll remember former Church of The Doors High Mojomuck, Anthony Spurlock when he made headlines in 1992 inside Newsweek magazine. He also made news again when he single handedly thwarted off a public attack from radio station evangelist, Bob Larson. Sadly after this the church closed its doors forever. For years Ive been trying to get permission to reprint these. Finally Ive done it! You can now obtain quality reprints direct from the masters of their best (and last) two issues (Spring 1992 & Winter 1992-93) for the same $5 each (plus postage) that they originally cost. For more information on The Church, check out the new article on our websites On-Line Magazine written back in 1993 for our first printed magazine by their High Mojomuck, Anthony Spurlock located at: http://www.doors.com/magazine/ To read more about the actual Church of the Doors fanzines (The Deadly Doorknell) go to: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/fanzines *** Oakley Krieger Band performing LIVE w/ Robby Krieger at the Whisky-A-Go-Go in Los Angeles (3-15-97) It's their complete performance on videoand what a great performance! The OK Band features Robby Kriegers son Waylon on guitars and Berry Oakleys son, Berry Oakley Jr. on vocals. Videotaped and produced by the OK Band, this electrifying performance is now available on video tapes that are autographed on their label by both Waylon and Berry! Price: $25 (plus $4.50 s&h) Autographed copies available at no extra charge only while supplies last! For more information, please go to: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/videos/OKBand.html *** FREE LIVE SHOW TAPE*** During the months of February & March if you mention this ad, we will give one FREE 90 minute cassette volume from our trade list with every $100 spent on Doors MEMORABILIA from our list at: http://www.doors.com/door_mem/ Or you can check out our list of LIVESHOW audio cassette tapes for trade at: http://www.doors.com/liveshow/ *** ATTENTION EUROPEAN DOORS FANS*** We now have capabilities to dub our trade videos directly in PAL at no additional trade value. *** Original hard cover copies of Wild Child by Linda Ashcroft were pulled from the shelves in the UK when its controversial writings were challenged in court. Linda informed The Doors Collectors Magazine that her publisher will be re-issuing an edited book in paperback form sometime in mid-June. If any of you have *hardcover copies* for sale, please email me! *** MEMORABILIA ITEMS WANTED: If you have any of these items and are interested in selling them at a reasonable price or if you have an item that youre looking for and would like to have it included on our next "Want List", please call or email me your price or price range! I have tentative buyers for all of the following items. BOOKS WANTED "Riders On The Storm" Audio Book "Jim Morrison & The Doors" book by Mike Jahn "The American Night" Hard Cover (only) book by Jim Morrison "Wild Child" hard cover book by Linda Ashcroft All privately published editions of all three of Morrisons poetry books LPS WANTED (Exc condition or better only) Doors: "13" LP Doors: "Absolutely Live" LP Doors: "Full Circle" LP Doors: "Other Voices" LP Doors: "Strange Days" LP (mono issue only) Doors: "The Doors" LP (mono issue only) Doors: "Waiting For The Sun" LP (mono issue only) Doors: "Weird Scenes Inside The Goldmine" LP Doors: "LA Woman" LP (original issue only) Doors: "The Doors movie soundtrack" LP Ray Manzareks "Carmina Burana" LP Ray Manzareks "Nite City Golden Days Diamond Nights" LP Ray Manzareks "Nite City" LP "Comfortable Chair" LP "Phantoms Divine Comedy" LP "Phantoms Lost Album" LP Any PROMO issued LPs for The Doors or the solo members OTHER DOORS ITEMS WANTED: 1968 Doors Tour Book All Doors Bootleg LPs and CDs Doors RIAA Gold & Platinum Awards "Tribute to Jim Morrison" Video "Dance On Fire" Video Doors Tickets or Ticket Stubs (esp. Miami 69) All Doors 45s that have Picture Sleeves (both foreign & domestic) Any Doors 8-Track Tapes (exc cond. only) OTHER NON-DOORS ITEMS WANTED: Milkwood: "Hows The Weather" LP 3-D Stereo Cameras or Projectors 3-D Stereo Cards or Slides Collectable Cameras THIS IS THE END MY FRIEND... TILL NEXT TIME! Kerry (kerry(a)doors.com) The Doors Collectors Magazine c/o TDM Inc PO Box 1441 Orem, UT 84059 *********** Thanks you for reading The Doors Collectors Magazine's Strange Days Email Newsletter. It is sent ONLY to subscribers. If you were subscribed by someone other than yourself and wish to be removed from our list please 1) accept our apologies and 2) return this message back to doorlist(a)doors.com with "REMOVE" in the subject line or go to http://www.doors.com/cgi-bin/email_list.cgi and unsubscribe. ***********

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Re: the best justice money can buy --Lessig (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:13:00 -0800 (PST) > From: mark(a)unicorn.com > Subject: Re: the best justice money can buy --Lessig (fwd) > Jim Choate (ravage(a)ssz.com) wrote: > >If there were no copyright nobody would have any reason to market software > >or much else for that matter. > > So I presume that Linux doesn't exist[1]? And, for that matter, I make my > living writing software which is given away for free... > > [1] Yes, I'm aware the GPL uses copyright to enforce its conditions, but > it's copright-free in the important sense: anyone can copy Linux and use > it with no fear of black ninjas at their door. A couple of other points. I've never claimed the monopolization would exist over nite or that it wouldn't be filled with short term conflicts and ups-n-downs. Only that the *long-term* result is a monopolized market. A point you seem to gloss over as irrelevant. Let's give the market another 5-10 years and see where Linux stands. Right now the estimate is 6-10 million users world wide use it. Share wise that isn't a lot. The reason that Linux garners so much press right now is that it is in fact an exception when an organization uses the software (eg NASA). The test will be whether it grows significantly over the long run and not the 5 years that Linux has been a serious os. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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slashdot.org news update...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > X-within-URL: http://www.slashdot.org/ > John Ousterhout leaves SunScript Contributed by CmdrTaco on Thu Feb 5 > 23:38:53 1998 EST > [Sun Microsystems] From the other-disappearing-acts Dept > Markus Fleck (aka python) wrote in to say "John Ousterhout, author of > the Tcl language and the Tk toolkit, also of Spring OS fame, has left > SunScript to form his own company, called Scriptics, to promote the > use and further development of Tcl. - I suppose that Sun didn't find > paying for Tcl development worthwhile any more, because there has > hardly been any revenue from it yet (even the source for the Tcl > Plugin for web browsers was made freely available when a poll showed > that too few people would be willing to pay for being able to execute > "Tclets" in their browsers)." > Be x86 Coming Contributed by CmdrTaco > [Be] Thu Feb 5 16:26:43 1998 EST > From the mr-be-sharp dept. > Sean Simmons wrote in to tell us that BeOS for x86 should be released > at SD98. Check out this TechWeb Story for more details. I would love > to get my hands on a copy. > Read More... > 21 comment(s) > Should Netscape Sell Linux? Contributed by Justin > [Netscape] Thu Feb 5 16:11:27 1998 EST > From the not-a-bad-idea dept. > An article at the Boston Globe presents an interesting solution to > Netscape's recent losses in the browser war. The author suggests > Netscape create and sell their own Linux distribution, the reason > being that Microsoft will be able to leverage their control of the > operating system for some time. Read on. > Read More... > 38 comment(s) > 2600 In Danger Contributed by CmdrTaco > Thu Feb 5 10:56:14 1998 EST > From the sounds-familiar dept. > I)ruid wrote in to say " 2600 The Hacker Quarterly, has recently been > having financial problems due to it's previous distributor. To find > out the whole story, check out this page. 2600 needs our help, but > will not accept donations. However, there is a LOT of merchandice in > stock, and buying up their overstock will definately help, as well as > going down to your local bookstore and requesting that they carry > 2600. So if you appreciate 2600 as much as I do, let's help give them > the help they need." My sentiments exactly. > Read More... > 8 comment(s) > Cooking pot markets Contributed by CmdrTaco > Thu Feb 5 10:27:02 1998 EST > From the must-read dept. > Hackworth sent us a link to an article entitled Cooking pot markets. > The article is an extremely good read, and addresses issues like What > Motiviates Free Software guys. I suspect most of us free software guys > already know what is said here, but this article puts it very clearly > for people who might understand it a bit less can be clued it. > Read More... > 3 comment(s) > Des2, Bovine and Slashdot Contributed by CmdrTaco > [Encryption] Thu Feb 5 10:09:40 1998 EST > From the bits-and-bytes dept. > Distributed.net has been working hard to crack the Des2 contest inside > the 22 day limit, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen, > despite Team Slashdot's rising in the ranks to #13. Thanks to the > 125-150 of you who have been contributing keys in our name! > Editorials > > Slashdot is participating in RC5. Read who's helping, and why. Check > out Our Current Rank. > > Read Rob's Solution to the Browser Battle and a followup with comments > from a Netscape Engineer. Interesting especially now that Netscape > Agreed! ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Changing to Moderated Cypherpunks -- How?
by Information Security 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Soon I won't see you anymore, using the moderated list. > Thu Feb 5 20:22:33 1998 > Dimitry "Totally Impotent Since Prostrate Operation" The Dim wrote: > > Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> writes: > > > Information Security <guy(a)panix.com> > > > I'd be glad to handle it. > > > > > > The only criteria is to delete Dr. Dim and his nyms. > > > > How are you going to recognize Dimitri's nyms if he has any. > > Guy Polis thinks that anyone smarter than him (and that's 99.99% of the > population) is my tentacle. He thinks everything on this list except > him and Timmy May is my tentacle, including you too, Adam. > > Guy Polis (guy(a)panix.com, eviljay(a)bway.net) is a pedophile child > molester who was fired from his consulting position at Salomon Brothers > after he was caught masturbating in his cubicle at the child pornography > JPEGs that he downloaded from the Internet. > > In retaliation, Guy Polis spammed the firewalls mailing list with megabytes > of e-mail logs that he "intercepted" at Salomon Brothers, and accused > several of his former co-workers and supervisors of various crimes. > > As far as I can determine, Guy Polis has been unemployed since the time > he was fired from Salomon. If anyone knows otherwise, please let me know. All you'll get is resounding silence, especially since you're so clueless as to get my name wrong: hint...not even 'guy' is correct. What a loser! You must love everyone seeing the old traffic analysis report on you: You'll have to go to URL 'www.dejanews.com/home_ps.shtml' to pick it up. Select "old database" and use this in their search box: ~g soc.culture.jewish & ~dc 1997/08/04 & ~s Brighton Beach Perhaps it should be updated and delivered to everyone in your neighborhood and the building you give classes in? You're just a ButtHead who never grew up, still gets a kick out of saying "cocksucker". Your brother Michael had to do your math thesis for you! ---guy You couldn't even cut it in Manhatten.

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