December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Remailer Attack (fwd)
by phelix＠vallnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 26 Sep 1997 23:18:00 -0500, Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> wrote: > >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:17:11 -0700 >> From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> >> Subject: Re: Remailer Attack (fwd) > [ stuff deleted] >> And I mentioned this specifically. > >I'll grant you mentioned digital postage. This simply is not robust enough >to handle the world of a commercial remailer operator. We'll just have to >agree to disagree here because the standard digital postage argument simply >doesn't sway me to support it. > What's wrong with the idea of digital postage? What else do you have in mind? There are a couple of problems that arise when money in any form gets involved: 1) refunds: If one remailer in a chain fails to deliver a message, How does a user get a refund without having the message traced back to him? 2) Business/Gov't dishonesty: Imagine if 50% of all remailers are owned and operated by the same company. Now imagine if that company did not have the same morality/ideaology as we do. Now imagine if that same company was LEA friendly. I don't think I need to tell you why this is a bad thing.

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Leaving again
by Paul Bradley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I`ll be off the list again for a while, and this address may well be closed, not sure yet. If anyone needs to get me +44 (0)410 933621 is always a good one to try, I should be back on the list within a few weeks though. Bye for now. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Stel
by Mark Rogaski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Has anyone heard anything recently about CERT-IT's STEL? I like it much better than deslogin (although, I can't seem to get steld working on Linux boxes ...), and have been waiting for the protocol to catch on. It's been beta for over a year now. Doc - -- [] Mark Rogaski "That which does not kill me [] wendigo(a)pobox.com only makes me stranger." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNCyxYMHFI4kt/DQOEQIPowCgp0fwxqMaaWoJfAhZzTq4BVWMhk0Aniyi tnKR4VDkK2aRNHofWcuVFrry =eSW0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Remailer latencies
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- David E. Smith wrote: >> Incidentally, if somebody offered you colocation space, would you be >> willing to set up your machine there? > >I wouldn't, and I hope not many other remailer operators would >either. A lot of the security on my machine comes from having >physical control over it. Good point. Also, using a dialup gives you another layer of physical privacy. You could even move the machine around from time to time. This could even foil the Big Boys if they don't want to reveal how well they can track things. (Corollary: Even if PGP is NSA breakable, you can still use it for drug dealing and bribery.) >(That includes the ability to rapidly delete things with extreme >prejudice should the spooks come knocking at the door.) If I'm not >sleeping in the room next to my machine, I don't have that kind of >control. What is on your machine that has to be deleted? I suppose you'd want to power cycle it since the private key (or a passphrase) will be sitting in memory. Is there anything on the disk that must be deleted? More operations questions: according to Raph's chart, your machine has an "uptime" of 99.64%. I assume that means Raph's experiments showed that 36 messages out of 1000 disappeared. Did I assume correctly? If so, what accounts for these message losses? I would expect that if your machine was down, even for a couple of days, that the incoming messages would be queued up on other machines and none would be lost. BTW, my intention is not be critical of your volunteer work running a remailer, but to develop an understanding of the issues involved. Even a response like "the machine was down for three days because I was in Las Vegas partying" is useful because it would suggest that remailer operators are not adequately compensated for their work. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNCyf1JaWtjSmRH/5AQG1lAf9HS5Hu9HX32Uij93MEaWzG4BOqgj9/mok W+Ngjnz2yDKW3g7MoN+Ypvy05EGPNtwZjhigRkUzSIHfT7gYGlbclcf1p2aZk4L5 MT1wP1zdT0cdUoIjTwSa/VXgHuuPLTo68LhnbdCTVgLjbqMaC7DxvrGam7C7CXcT POxjh7bpwrz8LJ0YmALuhqITv+QxPqv0jeCigsYqtv9wEcPdIp9Y+If4+u5+aln4 FejVogjqSGl8E8bICc5GMNFifXKcpGkGNb992P4IUHjyZmmgQRqMhuS6yWjHM2cM uWj0fbH+/Yab+svKsULz0aqbG670A5VzriP+800JAJd8XtZd7T5y9w== =gqzn -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Remailers and ecash
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Just out of a curiousity, why is it that no remailers accept ecash? (This is not a jibe at remailer operators or authors of remailer software. I am really curious if this is a "didn't get to it yet" sort of thing, or if there's something hard about it.) The brutally simple way to do this would be to generate an ecash certificate, made out to cash, and tack it at the beginning of a message which is then encrypted for the remailer. The modifications to the remailer software seem (to me) to be slight since you just call the Digicash application and ask it to try depositing the payment. If it works, the message is handled. Since everybody is in the habit of not paying, you could just give priority to paying customers. People who don't want to pay get their mail delayed by four hours. Some people may pay to expedite some messages but not others. There are probably better ways to do it, but that would get it up and running. What aspects of this problem am I missing? Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNCyV7JaWtjSmRH/5AQEdDAf+L/8KmV2fTeRPtkD2mSRcyLoyJh0pj8lc KSkXfFeQyTleiw7iPaF02PgNWgEXuFF5np02Qksz9LvcdWJR8Al6WyyiyOdGOo0S lCuguS1CPGYhfJktvyvWLMkWlimICGfy6G7I3vkzIdRsS1tsCTCEHq8XM1/u8RuU GBejo9ZUYu5CR4BzlbG/eJqUhQMgQkzOE9pifQGFGkEAX7cKxL/DImlIEpcSYavj OncVb808gd746bS53fg6X6U7U5G1GFhL0CAP1Vk0HBDU+a3UdDue29Sn40Dugw2m g8qkIYGQGvZxCJK5u6FcMaN7b7WyjjZTqSC5/nTDO5yAPbZqppuKhQ== =2b7M -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Need Quarters ??
by cleanring＠t-1net.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Earn Big $$ Through Bulk Email
by waeho＠vol.cz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Accept Checks by Phone, Fax or E-Mail for FREE!
by Senders＠Domains.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: FCC Proposes V-Chip Requirements for TV Manufacturers
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 9/26/97 2:20 PM, Bill Stewart (stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com) passed this wisdom: >The FCC yesterday proposed rules that would give television >manufacturers until July 1 1998 to put V-Chips in half of new TV >sets with monitors 13 inchesor larger,and in all sets by July 1, >1999. Reed Hundt said that this will "ensure that V-Chip technology >does in fact exist in a relatively short period of time".Industry >officials protested that the time limit is way too short for >manufacturers,saying they need 18 months - 2 years. Comment period >runs until November. > >Meanwhile, some of the major TV networks are going to a more >detailed rating system,Sex/Violence/Language/SuggestiveDialog, with >a FantasyViolence category for kids' shows.NBC is resisting >that. At the risk of asking the obvious .... what ever happened to parents supervising their kids ... I know all the reasons ... mod and dad working etc .... but I teach school, and here in Vermont I still run into families with two breadwinners who actually know what their kids are doing ... (sadly, not as many as I wish I would meet; and since my job is working with 'at risk' students 98% of the parents I deal with have no clue as to what their kids are doing) The joke of the whole thing is that most probably the kids will know how to manage the 'controls' better than the parents and they will use the V-ratings and controls to figure out which shows they will find 'most interesting!' -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNC0Qp8dZgC62U/gIEQL/qwCfZCgLjnIND1sI6yYIVNrFtuLCbOAAn3k5 PgcBlDQdw/15KXFUJnAay01V =7mLT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For my PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"

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Digital Postage (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:18:02 -0700 > From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Subject: Digital Postage > At 8:56 PM -0700 9/26/97, Jim Choate wrote: > > The point is that some remailers will remail for free. And consequences will be: - in general intermittent reliability with boxes going up and down like yo-yo's. I suspect it will be like BBS's were in the early 80's when everyone put one up for two weeks. - limited traffic bandwidth, why would some kid or hobbyist be willing to spend (for example) $1k/month to keep a T1 going so others can use it. - parties who would not use a fully commercial site because they don't want to pay for it will flock to such servers. Because they loose nothing if it goes down they have no reason to consider the impact of their actions on themselves. > Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much. > Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on. And there are a couple of problems with this: - it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism. - how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00? What about intermediate remailers and their desire to get a cut of the pie? > What _others_ think is not really too important. Really? Tell that to the DA when some bozo from the local Scientoligist shows up and starts harrassing you with legal actions. No, CyberPromo is a clear indication that what others think can in fact sink your boat no matter how big a bilge pump you might have. > It seems fairly obvious that some form of metered service--remailing for a > fee--is likely to evolve. It must evolve or else we won't have anonymous remailers. People in general are not going to build these sorts of systems out of some philanthropic streak. Even if they did, it is equaly obvious they won't be reliable for long-term use. > Charityware remailers will work for a while, so > long as the usage is low and the expectations are even lower. But > eventually those with an actual need for anonymous communication will pay > for the service. How much, and when, and in what form, all this remains to > emerge. Agreed. However, I do not believe that anonymous remailers have a sufficiently parallel structure with physical mail to carry that system over. When the Austin Cpunks had kourier up about a year and a half ago it became clear that financing such an enterprise is not trivial. I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a 'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break that anonymity. > I call this metered usage "digital postage" because that's what it is. It > has to be untraceable, obviously, and so some form of blinded cash, or > blinded token (e.g., "use once tokens") has to be used. The problem is that it shuts out people like one of my customers who still uses a 2400 modem, even after I offer to give her a spare 14.4 that I have. While I can appreciate the desire to expunge such luddite thinking as a gear-head but as a business I don't care about their philosophy unless it leads me to their purse strings. If remailers are going to work as a business we can't turn our back on traditional payment mechanisms. The problem, as I see it, is that there is no clear mechanism for me to write a normal check and have that turn into a anon account easily without involving 3rd parties and their concommittent extra costs - further increasing the end-user cost to do business. There better be a reason or they won't pay for long. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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