December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Toto wrote: > > The primal instinct of those with interest in 'control' is centered > > around the need for 'total' control. The history of dictators in > > general has shown more than a few who have allowed the sheep to escape > > from their pens while they were fixated on chasing down the few 'black > > sheep' that had strayed from their control. > > The CypherPunks list is a prime example of this. John and Sandy became > > so fixated on their attack on Dr. Vulis (and subsequent 'dissenters') > > that they eventually lost control of the other sheep in the fold who > > were willing to go along with a 'moderate' abrogation of their right > > to free speech by the censoring of only the 'black' sheep. > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example > of the delusion of grandeur). Remember the movie Die Hard (#1)? Remember what the wife said about how her husband would drive people stark, raving mad? I humbly suggest by analogy that it was me, since that is my effect on a lot of people, particularly (and especially) the John and Sandy types.

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Re: Why Digital Video Disks are late to market
by Landon Dyer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:53 AM 2/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >azur(a)netcom.com (Steve Schear) writes: >> Has anyone seen discussions on how these protection mechanisms can be >> circumvented? > >Ummm, sector copy? AFAIK, the reader/writer manfacturer is trusted to >cripple any copies it makes. Of course, it's all software, so if some >EVIL person were to write a driver that did not honor the "don't copy >me" header ... i can confirm this. i recently talked to an employee of a firm [who i won't name] that was looking for some kind of shrouding scheme to protect their copy-protection enforcement code, under W95. [he knows the effort is ultimately doomed. he *is* a user of SoftICE, after all... :-) ] quotable quotes: "we know someone's going to have their scheme cracked. all we care about is that ours isn't the first." "i can't tell you the [encryption] algorithm, because that would let you break it. yes, the security is in the algorithm." where does hollywood get its crypto? mattel? -landon [back to lurk mode...]

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Re: Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Come on, Bob. Quit rubbing it in about that clear blue water, the tropical temperatures and high horsepower speakers. -attila on or about 970219:0704 Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> said: +At 8:29 pm -0500 on 2/18/97, ! Drive wrote: +> A proposal and prototype of a different anonymity mechanism can be found at: +> http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/projects/onion-routing/overview.html +And, of course, you can hear about the next generation from the same +bunch, on Monday morning at FC97: + Unlinkable Serial Transactions + Paul F. Syverson (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA), + Stuart G. Stubblebine (AT&T Labs--Research, Murray Hill, NJ, USA), + David M. Goldschlag (Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC, USA) +:-). +<http://www.offshore.com.ai/fc97/> Cheers, Bob Hettinga _____________________________________________________________________ Surveilence is just another form of entertainment. ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMwtHW704kQrCC2kFAQF71QQAx/ai6PvbLHETVNLHQJ78XIIgkPBLflbO 4LfcHeA/m5WSq+kK8GNbSsMq+7Bcfpw+iELlPUhbU671oecayfyJj1C/Irwr2pXF dgNniD/2s0QnhDGEuHDbFtjkeIiSV70ED9+TO+osLG/fQIigV0jeIFPeh9D0Ri/z FueZ3HRx784= =Dtbl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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"cypherpunks is dead..."
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"...long live cypherpunks?" "So long, and thanks for all the fish?" But, seriously, folks... Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here. Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew *exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and more important, why they were going to change. I now *know* where the world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.") Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and, certainly, for his encouragement and support. And, obviously, his tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his expectations and those of our own. We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current "leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here (myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most symmetrical indeed. :-). And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days. Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists. Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-). In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and, occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two that I've worked out myself. Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to die just because the address "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" ceases to exist. There are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it. So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can see, is ours to move into. All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> said: +Simple, but.... In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim? Both the Rodney +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions. you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for years that everyone is equal. yeah, right! therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by attorneys calling up racism. yeah, right! as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away permanently. Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the family should be punished as well. we wont even bother with the issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except Powell who they hung on. they had a clear right to try Powell, noone else. and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell. by the time the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the witnesses, nobody told the truth. Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized for what he was --and easily identified. in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop. and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial. I dont know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news. or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of the oppressive whiteface? it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west Valley, what was horse country when I lived there. they had a job to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems. Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was double decked. Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box and dock in between. yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors. perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his actions. everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author discussing the problem with jury selection: "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six cemetary occupants were never punished. Why? Because Alfred the Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that human wisdom could contrive. For how could he imagine that we simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented chronometers? In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes honest men and men of brains. "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we call a jury trial. A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, in the most wanton and cold-blooded way. Of course the papers were full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it. And of course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it. A jury list was made out, and Mr. B. L., a prominent banker and a valued citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned in any court in America: "`Have you heard of this homicide?' "`Yes.' "`Have you held conversations on the subject?' "`Yes.' "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?' "`Yes.' "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?' "`Yes.' "`We do not want you.' "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a merchant of high character and known probity; a mining superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in the same way, and all set aside. Each said the public talk and the newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with the facts. But of course such men could not be trusted with the case. Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice. "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard, read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush, and the stones in the streets were cognizant of! It was a jury composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid, human donkeys! It actually came out afterward that one of these latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing. "The verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty. What else could one expect? "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty, and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury. It is a shame that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good a thousand years ago. In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing, intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would be far safer in his hands than theirs. Why could not the jury law be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance with fools and miscreants? Is it right to show the present favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another, in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal? I am a candidate for the legislature. I desire to tamper with the jury law. I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots, blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers. But no doubt I shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses fire.'" --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII. _____________________________________________________________________ "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for the purpose of seeing justice done; and why person C has any legitimate gripe, if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMwtSiL04kQrCC2kFAQEmrwQAylLGuPHBNqeVij2ll7bnuK2Qn3CCZFTF 0unEYtmWcDxV5YxwyYVVntpujuF0j38/A3XBKKOwkfqt2QibRIKsBq7lkkWjIQvl re2y0q3XE6+/+Iw9gQbeNv2jEBH1fofIOLCKgAOYonjl+TXCMOJC8kJKszmr+QGr uk0yviRPO5c= =wRK0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST) To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam(a)intertrader.com> From: e$pam(a)intertrader.com (e$pam) Reply-To: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off(a)intertrader.com Precedence: Bulk Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Forwarded by Robert Hettinga ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> To: dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token Sender: bounce-dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> FYI, from today's WSJ: ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------ Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps Into Automatic-Payment Sites By PETER FRITSCH Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster. The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at a gasoline pump to fill 'er up. The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a credit-card purchase. Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's," says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst. Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with 10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can save the motorist valuable time. Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer. The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price. Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations. Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market, Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller, as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.) Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key markets by May 1. ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo(a)ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB(a)ai.mit.edu -------------------------------------------------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$pam? Help pay for it! See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html> Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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It's time to move on, kids.
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list. 85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Golem

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Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri(a)netcom.com> > To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way > > > what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over > <snip><snip><snip> > > timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing a troll

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It's time to move on, kids.
by Name Withheld by Request 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list. 85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Golem

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Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
by Name Withheld by Request 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri(a)netcom.com> > To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way > > > what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over > <snip><snip><snip> > > timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing a troll

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