December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "Remailers can't afford to be choosy"
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > Umm.... freedom of the press is freedom for he who owns the press. > >The remailer operators own the presses; why shouldn't they use whatever means > >they see fit to determine how they can be used? I encourage people not to > >discriminate on the basis of the political orientation of what's going > >through... but spam isn't political speech. (I agree that the government > >should not be in the business of determining what is spam and what is > >political speech - all speech should be protected - but remailer operators > >are not governments.) The point here, I think, that we are failing to see is that the remailers are run on private machines and bandwidth, when you use a remailer you are a guest on someone else property, your mail is using their bandwidth etc. They can determine how they like how they are used, I just hope most of us will have the strength of conscience to refrain from using remailers which censor or restrict their throughput, I agree that spam is a different question but we do have our own way of dealing with this, just mailbomb the senders, if they are commercial they are likely to leave an address or telephone number on the spam even if the email address is anonymized, we have ways ;-) <haha evil nazi grin forms on face> Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Http://www.fatmans.demon.co.uk/crypt/ "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAjH9j+cAAAEEAMBvREiQR0ot9dFCO0TiSCSunAYLv2g1Bc6I3bz8FzKXNH53 6mieJf/W4rD+CxJpT0q9RQaaoRtkHJLwbjfK2il3D7mEahMAyqvF/xRJNqkXfhM3 sRJM0Jh43l+W0M5vwokbEbk25/bxWWGspTsLD3YHbzKnG6pOcL5OPIRbv66xAAUR tCdQYXVsIEJyYWRsZXkgPHBhdWxAZmF0bWFucy5kZW1vbi5jby51az6JAJUDBRAy NwfvNkCBjDT0xHEBATQPA/9TORmN/UjNecj03q4anpvdyCLiez5sKuNbnYK50RiP Jj4QpWWvST3smyQ0A86DrZY/re056MXwQmARESx0rFZxdnD0oORICl5r8dJLIy3b j8rbA5olXwZwKz73/X5s13v/pvHYX4cIsbVK8NHXqh5llSKt6TBAuGgkIGF29z5k C4kAlQMFEDI3B9mdtf/umVkv7QEBcRYD/1FBteLqsUmr81euxqqnnrpLlyHb58B/ 9sdATuua4uSjX46hXDZ264YozspNrzSB4NEdrmXOWVX3fiE0ga6XkSSkIeF23V90 En37Z0BdbFzgF00FRYTFyTq8eezQrdg/+rBPUsZUmG5wpq3e12FKHQsX01i+1mB2 YmqqwCV5e95eiQCVAgUQMh8uSb5OPIRbv66xAQEqJwP/fxQyiCasjFcbDpsFfsYp put5cCC/9pOx6X3DlbKShPMpUOS+A9HsTEmJQN8Iawv1nSwPdtc2cR/GhW6ilVjW LSloGdMVLabm9pGpZZMkRaZlXFUkOv7VhfgsUiL+vIDryBCAwUZCzQiWycjt/cPi mUqFH41Z7NkyO8ZFdi5GGX0= =CMZA -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

PGP message

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Re: China joins Singapore, Germany, ....
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 16 04:22:40 1996 Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 16 Sep 96 07:19:49 EDT for dlv Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA11172 for dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 16 Sep 96 04:22:40 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ak07550; 15 Sep 96 13:11 GMT Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa23307; 15 Sep 96 11:02 BST Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk by fatmans.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA842732056 ; Sat, 14 Sep 96 20:14:16 +0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is <paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> From: paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:14:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: China joins Singapore, Germany, .... Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-Id: <842781740.23307.0(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> > > Nazi POWs were Nazis and deserved to be killed. Likewise, American soldiers > are murderous scum. I wish Saddam Hussein the best of luck in killing every > American he can get. > > P.S. Please do not cc: me. Fuck you. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Http://www.fatmans.demon.co.uk/crypt/ "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAjH9j+cAAAEEAMBvREiQR0ot9dFCO0TiSCSunAYLv2g1Bc6I3bz8FzKXNH53 6mieJf/W4rD+CxJpT0q9RQaaoRtkHJLwbjfK2il3D7mEahMAyqvF/xRJNqkXfhM3 sRJM0Jh43l+W0M5vwokbEbk25/bxWWGspTsLD3YHbzKnG6pOcL5OPIRbv66xAAUR tCdQYXVsIEJyYWRsZXkgPHBhdWxAZmF0bWFucy5kZW1vbi5jby51az6JAJUDBRAy NwfvNkCBjDT0xHEBATQPA/9TORmN/UjNecj03q4anpvdyCLiez5sKuNbnYK50RiP Jj4QpWWvST3smyQ0A86DrZY/re056MXwQmARESx0rFZxdnD0oORICl5r8dJLIy3b j8rbA5olXwZwKz73/X5s13v/pvHYX4cIsbVK8NHXqh5llSKt6TBAuGgkIGF29z5k C4kAlQMFEDI3B9mdtf/umVkv7QEBcRYD/1FBteLqsUmr81euxqqnnrpLlyHb58B/ 9sdATuua4uSjX46hXDZ264YozspNrzSB4NEdrmXOWVX3fiE0ga6XkSSkIeF23V90 En37Z0BdbFzgF00FRYTFyTq8eezQrdg/+rBPUsZUmG5wpq3e12FKHQsX01i+1mB2 YmqqwCV5e95eiQCVAgUQMh8uSb5OPIRbv66xAQEqJwP/fxQyiCasjFcbDpsFfsYp put5cCC/9pOx6X3DlbKShPMpUOS+A9HsTEmJQN8Iawv1nSwPdtc2cR/GhW6ilVjW LSloGdMVLabm9pGpZZMkRaZlXFUkOv7VhfgsUiL+vIDryBCAwUZCzQiWycjt/cPi mUqFH41Z7NkyO8ZFdi5GGX0= =CMZA -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: Internet Drivers' Licenses
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 16 04:17:55 1996 Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 16 Sep 96 07:19:56 EDT for dlv Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA10926 for dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com; Mon, 16 Sep 96 04:17:55 -0400 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([(null)]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ak19657; 15 Sep 96 11:16 GMT Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk ([158.152.120.223]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa23377; 15 Sep 96 11:02 BST Received: from fatmans.demon.co.uk by fatmans.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA842732060 ; Sat, 14 Sep 96 20:14:20 +0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is <paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> From: paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:14:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Internet Drivers' Licenses Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-Id: <842781757.23377.0(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> > This is the kind of project cypherpunks would do if they were writing code, > instead of lies and personal attacks, the way Tim May (fart) does. Is a Tim May reference compulsory in all of your postings you stupid little man? Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Http://www.fatmans.demon.co.uk/crypt/ "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAjH9j+cAAAEEAMBvREiQR0ot9dFCO0TiSCSunAYLv2g1Bc6I3bz8FzKXNH53 6mieJf/W4rD+CxJpT0q9RQaaoRtkHJLwbjfK2il3D7mEahMAyqvF/xRJNqkXfhM3 sRJM0Jh43l+W0M5vwokbEbk25/bxWWGspTsLD3YHbzKnG6pOcL5OPIRbv66xAAUR tCdQYXVsIEJyYWRsZXkgPHBhdWxAZmF0bWFucy5kZW1vbi5jby51az6JAJUDBRAy NwfvNkCBjDT0xHEBATQPA/9TORmN/UjNecj03q4anpvdyCLiez5sKuNbnYK50RiP Jj4QpWWvST3smyQ0A86DrZY/re056MXwQmARESx0rFZxdnD0oORICl5r8dJLIy3b j8rbA5olXwZwKz73/X5s13v/pvHYX4cIsbVK8NHXqh5llSKt6TBAuGgkIGF29z5k C4kAlQMFEDI3B9mdtf/umVkv7QEBcRYD/1FBteLqsUmr81euxqqnnrpLlyHb58B/ 9sdATuua4uSjX46hXDZ264YozspNrzSB4NEdrmXOWVX3fiE0ga6XkSSkIeF23V90 En37Z0BdbFzgF00FRYTFyTq8eezQrdg/+rBPUsZUmG5wpq3e12FKHQsX01i+1mB2 YmqqwCV5e95eiQCVAgUQMh8uSb5OPIRbv66xAQEqJwP/fxQyiCasjFcbDpsFfsYp put5cCC/9pOx6X3DlbKShPMpUOS+A9HsTEmJQN8Iawv1nSwPdtc2cR/GhW6ilVjW LSloGdMVLabm9pGpZZMkRaZlXFUkOv7VhfgsUiL+vIDryBCAwUZCzQiWycjt/cPi mUqFH41Z7NkyO8ZFdi5GGX0= =CMZA -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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RE: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
by jbugden＠smtplink.alis.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: > Crypto Anarchy means getting rid of deadwood the old-fashioned way. dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote: >Starting with the lying old fart himself. You shouldn't be so hard on Tim. I tried giving up farting years ago but I found I gained a lot of weight. It's also become more socially acceptable as evidenced by the new farting section in many English pubs. They even have a special section for me on some international flights. And unlike smoking, you *can* do it in the toilet. Besides, it can't be worse than smoking. Unless, perhaps, you do both at the same time... Cheers, James

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Re: 56 kbps modems
by Remo Pini 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Mon Sep 16 15:59:53 1996 I think I have to throw in some words here, too: 1. BAUD is one distingushable signal form. 2. BPS is bits per second 3. NO transmission over a standard phoneline can have more than 3100 baud, because the frequency of anything transmitted over that line is band limited to 300hz - 3400hz. (If you have ISDN it's not relevant anyway, since you are fixed with 8000hz or 64000 bps->in europe :), 56000 bps in usa) 4. Most modern transmission schemes work with multiple bits per baud. I.e. you transmit 10 bits in one baud if you have a 31000 bps modem. the only limitation in transmission speed is the amount of binary values you can pack into one baud. that on the other hand is limited by the S/N (signal to noise) ratio of your line. If you have a noise of 0.9%, you can't use more than 100 steps or you have ambiguous signals. since people talk about 56000 bps modems (we tried 34000 modems here and they couldn't produce more than 28800 on a very good connection) that would mean, that you have to transmit 18 bits = 262144 (!) distinguishable signal forms per baud. Comments? Remo Pini - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp(a)rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMj1dWhFhy5sz+bTpAQHmVAgAqRHydyZdElXlwMSgdKB6hg1fDBCMfhia JoI5W8n0JLcKe9HYN/H0DPqFHHDIATEhlN3b3OIhYCw52cNJ/e3b9Nbp5RQo+sDX zAogz5wZiDV7EA/gL589lNQZ9VKHlgTYBLzu1tqyJ5cD2KhWEUjvXyN4lYuxcEQT NIaiNPeYXrC0BeoLa/AE8mCrtu+7nhxy5HlSjDiu3lEYaVygKIPQHM3+Ljzq0jkq bmbqJbTyZshos+5gxHyXLsbL8rkpST53YT4Z3clL6PCv1ntNGXtb/loWgIDallYJ bHgfh/bAS5Utg7fpzuVNS8AJV8L2VLirScBd4Bq5RAXZxnoTVVQxOw== =9JSI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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List of reliable remailers
by Raph Levien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail(a)miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"c2"} = "<remail(a)c2.org> eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = "<anon(a)anon.penet.fi> penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = "<remailer(a)flame.alias.net> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer(a)replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = "<cpunk(a)remail.ecafe.org> cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = "<amnesia(a)chardos.connix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias(a)alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod(a)nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = "<mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"nemesis"} = "<remailer(a)meaning.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer(a)remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = "<remailer(a)vegas.gateway.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack(a)holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = "<ncognito(a)rigel.cyberpass.net> mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer(a)dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer(a)cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock(a)c2.org> cpunk pgp hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = '<config(a)nym.alias.net> newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer(a)huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix(a)squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman(a)jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord"; $remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias(a)alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp'; $remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman(a)athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash ksub latent cut ek mix reord"; catalyst(a)netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth(a)ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura(a)replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the cyber nymserver. The nym.alias.net server will be listed soon. See http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/n.a.n.html for details. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. Hopefully, this is fixed by now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 16 Sep 96 6:48:06 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- exon remailer(a)remailer.nl.com *#**##*#***# 1:16 100.00% jam remailer(a)cypherpunks.ca *****++***** 17:07 99.99% squirrel mix(a)squirrel.owl.de -+++---++++ 2:04:26 99.98% mix mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com +++++++++--+ 1:01:22 99.98% lead mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu + -++*++++++ 41:18 99.84% amnesia amnesia(a)chardos.connix.com ----------- 3:38:09 99.82% dustbin dustman(a)athensnet.com -+ ++----+ 1:24:30 99.74% cyber alias(a)alias.cyberpass.net * **+ ++*+ * 33:26 99.37% extropia remail(a)miron.vip.best.com ------.--.- 13:13:34 99.13% haystack haystack(a)holy.cow.net *###-#*##### 3:35 98.87% middle middleman(a)jpunix.com -- - --+ 2:53:19 98.74% replay remailer(a)replay.com ****+* ***** 4:45 98.13% winsock winsock(a)c2.org --- -+--++ 1:20:34 97.83% balls remailer(a)huge.cajones.com ******** * 5:06 88.34% nemesis remailer(a)meaning.com * 24:33 4.73% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien

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RE: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
by jbugden＠smtplink.alis.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: >"Saving for a rainy day," whether saving, investing, getting an education (while others are out partying), preparing, etc., all takes effort and commitment. If those who save and prepare are then told they have to pay high taxes to support those who partied....well, the predictable effect [...] is _more_ people in agony. When you tell people that a compassionate society will meet their basic needs, a predictable fraction of them will choose not to work hard and prepare themselves. Two questions, two observations: Do you have health insurance? Do you have life insurance? I have commented on your line of reasoning before and and it still seems to me that an important part of the discussion is missed. Specifically, that anyone can "save for a rainy day" and still not be able to provide for events that can always happen: Heart attack, stroke, car accident, pinched nerve that leaves you in excruciating pain and unable to work for several years. I don't think that a reasonable person would argue that medical insurance should be outlawed because everyone should take care of their own needs. A social safety net is simply a form of health and life insurance. Statistical arbitrage if you will. By spreading the risk you minimize the cost. Yes, some people will take advantage of the system. But like a virus, a robust system should be able to withstand this form of attack. I'm reminded of a Bloom County cartoon with Opus, Steve Dallas and Bill the cat sitting on a park bench as a jogger runs past. he derides the trio saying, "I jog three miles and work out every day, eat only healthy foods, and have regular medical checkups. I'll live twice as long as you lazy slobs." In the next panel the jogger is hit by lightning as the trio on the bench look on in shock. The last panel: "Here's to no guarantees!" and "Pass the ding dongs." Prend soin, James [Bible excerpt awaiting review as a motivation for human decency.] The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [excerpted from Luke 12:16-20, King James Version]

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Re: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
by Rick Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Asgaard wrote: : .... But suppose the population problem could : be fixed. Then, with technology escalating towards singularity, : machines doing almost all labor, there could certainly exist a : system where the 'dumb' and 'lazy' could be fed and housed properly : without anybody complaining. I'm always fascinated when people trot out this notion of technology giving us a maintenance free world that provides all our needs. Like Rifkin's "End of Work." I'm sorry but I just don't see how the problems of food and shelter are solved simply because we've automated the production of bank statements. All the really effective automation has involved symbolic activities, not the basic stuff of life, like food and shelter. : P.S. Mac Donalds could easily be replaced by a bot. Very unlikely. Despite the incredible degree of mechanization that happens in food production, *most* of it requires people in the loop. Part of it is health concerns -- you're far more likely to poison a significant portion of the population if you don't keep active human involvement in food production. But there's also a lot having to do with the structure of the work. You *can't* send a robot tractor into the fields and expect it to treat your corn right. And milking machines, well .... I did a lot with fault tolerance and industrial robotics in a previous life. Robots work fine in highly structured environments. Their value decreases dramatically as you remove structure. In unstructured environments they're either useless or just plain dangerous. Even the so called "industrialized" farms are wildly unstructured compared to a factory floor. And there's little reason to assume that 'biological units' (plants and animals produced for food) in a fully structured factory-like setting will yield all the products necessary for an adequate food supply. It seems that whenever we develop a "complete" model of what people need to survive and subject a few people to it, we discover that something fatal has been left out. : But to force people into menial service jobs just to literally : survive is not to my taste. No, give them minimal shelter for : nothing and from there on let the market anarcho-capitalistic : struggle begin, for obtaining a higher than minimum material : standard or reputational standing. I suspect that the Real World will always require a large portion of the available labor pool to do work that supports the production of food and shelter. The support has gotten pretty indirect in modern industrialized countries, I admit. Rick. smith(a)sctc.com

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RE: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:18 PM 9/16/96, jbugden(a)smtplink.alis.ca wrote: >I don't think that a reasonable person would argue that medical insurance >should >be outlawed because everyone should take care of their own needs. A social >safety net is simply a form of health and life insurance. Statistical arbitrage >if you will. By spreading the risk you minimize the cost. Yes, some people will >take advantage of the system. But like a virus, a robust system should be able >to withstand this form of attack. I have never argued against insurance! People who wish to buy insurance are welcome to, obviously. As to the "social safety net," things are far, far beyond a simple safety net. When 14-year-old pregnant inner city girls are given money to set up their own households (cf. Charles Murray's "Losing Ground"), this is not a "safety net," this is subsidized breeding. And so on. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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