December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Overwelmed with Stupidity...
by Gregory Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Shaun Clark <jacquard(a)teleport.com> writes: > > > Ok, ok... Let me say something, but I don't want anyone to > > take this wrong. I'm not trying to be stupid, but I don't > > have half the knowledge you all seem to posses. > and Mike Duvos <mpd(a)netcom.com> replies: >That's ok. Welcome to the list. > then proceeds to pull Mike's leg by telling him TRS-80 is a technical paper by David Sternlight, DES is a synthetic estrogen that shrinks your dick, and GAK is green slime on a kiddie show. In my mind, this is just schoolyard bully-ism at the expense of the "new kid." Really mature, really nurturing of the serious values and issues this list exists to disseminate. Go back to second grade, Mike. I, too, am a relative newcomer to this list, and have not participated very actively because I'm having a hard time gauging the balance between the genuinely useful technical and philosophical issues being discussed (of which there are many) and the childish, irrational ranting and insulting pseudo-intellectual one-upsmanship being bantered about (of which there is far too much). If people like Mike Duvos can't bring themselves to offer any useful information to newcomers who earnestly ask, they could at least refrain from insulting them for the "crime" of not knowing. Shaun, TRS-80 is an early line of microcomputers produced by Radio Shack, DES is a (not very secure) encryption algorithm supported by the Bureau of Standards, and GAK stand for "govenment access to keys," the position that the government should have access to all private keys (in escrow, of course) just in case there is a "legitimate" need to listen in on anybody's private communications. I believe in the values this list was founded to promulgate, and I value it for the open political, technical and philosopical discussions of issues crucial to our time. And, yes, it's great to have fun, too, but does it always have to be mean-spirited fun at someone else's expense? -- Gregory <gregorye(a)microsoft.com> "Opinions expressed herein are entirely my own and not the opinions of my employer." PGP key for <gregorye(a)microsoft.com> is on the keyservers >

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Pie cutting algorithm
by rollo＠artvark.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May said: << ObCrypto Sidebar: The "fair" method for dividing a pie between two people is well-known: "You cut, I choose." This *game theory* result is central to many cryptographic protocols (though it may not always be apparent at first). And the protocol can be extended to 3 parties, and proabably to N. Research is ongoing on this, including Cypherpunk Robin Hanson's work at Caltech. >> I (RS) believe Claude Shannon proposed the following N-person pie-cutting algorithm more than 25 years ago: Persons 1...N are seated around a circular table. A Thing To Be Shared (Call it a "pie") sits in front of P1 (Alice, if you prefer). P1 cuts a slice (a portion satisfactory to her) out of the pie -- the "current slice" -- and offers the whole pie with the current slice to the person P2 (Barbara, if you like) to her left for her consideration. It is possible that P1 is so greedy that she makes the whole pie the current slice. P2 does one of 2 things: A. P2 cuts a smaller slice (a portion satisfactory to her, which becomes the new current slice) out of the old current slice and offers the whole pie with the new current slice to P3. B. P2 passes (being unwilling to settle for a smaller slice of the pie than the current slice), offering the person P3 to her left the whole pie with the current slice for her consideration; P3 does one of 2 things: A. P3 cuts a smaller slice (a portion satisfactory to her, which becomes the new current slice) out of the old current slice and offers the whole pie with the new current slice to P4. B. P3 passes (being unwilling to settle for a smaller slice of the pie than the current slice), offering the person P4 to her left the whole pie with the current slice for her consideration; ... Eventually, someone (Pm, or Morticia) has cut a current slice, and everybody else has passed. At that point Pm gets the piece she cut, leaves the table with it, and (if N > 2) the game proceeds ab initio with N-1 people and the remaining pie. If N = 2 (two people were playing), there's now one person left (Winnie), and she gets the remaining pie. The whole procedure terminates, with everyone satisified, after a finite number of steps. Tim May: as a Licensed Ontologist, do you know who made the wiseassed (but deep) remark "Ontology recapitulates Philology"? or for that matter, "Oncology recapitulates Proctology". Rollo Silver / Amygdala | e-mail: rollo(a)artvark.com 216M N. Pueblo Rd, #107 | Website: http://www.artvark.com/artvark/ Taos, NM 87571 USA | Voice: 505-751-9601; FAX: 505-751-7507

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Re: Fireworks expected, missed at Senate crypto hearing
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:44 AM 7/27/96 -0700, Cerridwyn Llewyellyn wrote: > >>>more about terrorists. And Sen. Slate Gorton (R-Wash) jumped on the >>>committee staff for leaning too far *away* from national security interests >>>in their summary of the legislation. >> >>What does that mean? As opposed to what? (Gorton's my Senator, and I'm >>going to give a little feedback to his local office...) > >(If you have Real-Audio capability, you can listen to the hearings at >www.hotwired.com/wiredside) >Basically he expressed his disappointment at the committee for having a >biased view and having minds that were already made up regarding the issue, >and he said he was beginning to lean towards the bill, but the attitude of >the committee just might make him vote against it. >He's my senator too and believe me he got some feedback! =) I would not trust Slade Gordon as far as I can shoot him with a tree shreader. Gordon was the CO-SPONSOR of the CDA. Exon got all the press, but Gordon was just as responsible. (Maybe the netfolk ought to make that fact well known when he comes up for re-election. Hint! Hint!) Where issues of freedom are involved, I doubt if he is on our side. --- Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises."

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Overwelmed with Stupidity...
by Shaun Clark 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ok, ok... Let me say something, but I don't want anyone to take this wrong. I'm not trying to be stupid, but I don't have half the knowledge you all seem to posses. For instance what the heck is a TRS-80, DES, or even GAK? I probabl;y know or have heard but, I'm not picking up on the three letter words. So, if you could help meout maybe I just might be able to start contributing activly to this mailer!

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cypherpunks vs hackers
by Jerome Tan 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

How can we differentiate cypherpunks to hackers? What are their attitudes, psychological thinking, main objective?

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RE: Schelling Points, Rights, and Game Theory--Part II
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: James A. Donald > Some implications of Tim's view is that all our rights are basically a > transitory agreement between individuals. Tim may or may not believe this, but that is not a consequence of his views. The schelling point theory of rights is substantially equivalent in practice to "We hold these truths to be self evident." ............................................................................. Oh. I thought it was "we hold these truths to be too uneconomical for us to deal with". On a side note, I was thinking some time ago about situations in far off places in Europe where some people are mistreating others in the most horrendous ways (like Bosnia where the males are being beaten, the females are being raped). The news services report to us what is happening and so we know all about it, and we may feel the greatest sympathy for them, but yet be unable to render assistance - sufficient assistance - to be of any real help, from lacking the resources necessary to do what would be required. So here is an example where one would be moved, not to impose one's view of what is right or wrong, but to provide relief to those suffering, based on one's sense of injustice, yet likewise calculate that it would not be feasible to take action, reasoning that the cost would be excessive; too burdensome. .. Blanc

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RE: [NOISE IS NOISE] Re: Rand and smoking Re: Flaws of Thinkers (Jefferson, Rand, Nietzsche, Voltaire, etc.) [NOISE E. D.]
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Bill Stewart You fail to understand the precisely reasoned Aristotelian syllogistic logic of Ms. Rand's position (you heretic!): 1) Smoking is a result of fire. 2) Fire is cool. 3) Therefore, smoking is cool. Q.E.D. 4) Logic is cool, and non-logic is non-cool 5) We're cool 6) Therefore, light up that cigarette or be excommunicated! Q.E.D. ..................................................................... I don't remember reading anything about Ayn Rand insisting that her followers smoke, although I've read many of the Objectivist newsletters which were published for some time and read Barbara Branden's biography of her (I must have missed those parts). I do remember somewhat her description of what smoking meant to her and know that it was a very important symbol in her life. If her followers saw fit to emulate her on account of a mere symbol to the detriment of their health, and if this was at Rand's insistence, then I would say that they were demonstrating the principle which Rand also illustrated in her books, that being "the sanction of the victim". Ironic, huh. Sometimes you can identify the things that are far enough away to see, but not the ones that are too close to notice. .. Blanc

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NEW: E-LEX - electronic lexicons
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

For all you dictionary attackers out there... ;-) Cheers, Bob --- begin forwarded text Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 22:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Sean M. Burke" <sburke(a)babel.ling.nwu.edu> Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU> From: "Sean M. Burke" <sburke(a)babel.ling.nwu.edu> Subject: NEW: E-LEX - electronic lexicons To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU> E-LEX on listproc(a)listserv.acns.nwu.edu E-LEX is a new email list for the discussion of the design of dictionaries with electronic interfaces. Topics may include: * the possibilities of hypertext/hypermedia for the electronic interface * adaptation of machine-readable dictionaries to user-friendly human-usable form * issues in conversion and adaptation of paper dictionaries to electronic form The list's new homepage is at http://www.ling.nwu.edu/~sburke/e-lex/ To subscribe to E-LEX, send a message to listproc(a)listserv.acns.nwu.edu containing this line in the message body: subscribe E-LEX Your Name Owner: Sean M. Burke sburke(a)babel.ling.nwu.edu ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

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"Soft Targets" as Schelling Points
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The connection should be clear, but in case it is not: many soft targets are Schelling points for terrorist actions. Putting yourself in the mind of a terrorist or militia crazy or whatever, where would you attack? The Olympics, obviously. (And security officials of course see the same Schelling point, hence the unprecedented security measures and presence.) Given that most Olympic events are well-guarded, etc., what's the next target to look at? Crowded public gatherings, where the "message" can still be delivered and where security measures are problematic. There are tens of thousands of such soft targets/Schelling points in an "open society," and it is unreasonable to expect to defend each one of them. (Costly, too.) And if they are so-defended, the attacker moves to other targets. Keep your head down. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Is Colossus out of date?
by Martin Minow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You may recall recent comments by Attorney General Janet Reno where she notes that exportable encryption cannot be broken in reasonable time by modern supercomputers. With that as background, you may find the following paragraph interesting. It is from the Financial Times article on Colossus. http://jya.com/coloss.txt > [Tony] Sale describes [Colossus] as a large electronic valve > programmable logic calculator. "No lay person would argue > that it is not a computer," he says. Furthermore, because > it wasted no time retrieving a stored program it was almost > as fast as a high-speed modern computer whose nominal > work-rate is 1,000 times quicker. A simulation of Colossus > which Sale ran on a top-of-the-range Pentium PC took twice > as long as the real thing. Martin Minow minow(a)apple.com

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