December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: So, what crypto legislation (if any) is necessary?
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:46 PM 4/8/96 -0400, Black Unicorn wrote: >> Spooner's quote follows: >> >> "Doubtless the most miserable of men, under the most oppressive >> government in the world, if allowed the ballot, would use it, if they >> could see any chance of thereby meliorating their condition. But it >> would not, therefore, be a legitimate inference that the government >> itself, that crushes them, was one which they had voluntarily set up, or >> even consented to." >> >> Lysander Spooner > >I didn't respond to this part originally because I grew tired of typing >"Yadda yadda yadda" everytime Mr. Bell lapsed into another >psycho-political babble session. And the rest of us are tired of seeing those non-responses! >What this has to do with Mr. Bell's position, that citizens as a whole had >grown so discontented in the United States that they were prepared to rebell >actively in large numbers, is unclear. In fact the Spooner quote adds >more to my position than Mr. Bell's: > >"if allowed the ballot, would use it, if they could see any chance of >thereby meliorating their condition." > >Seems that even according to Spooner, the citizens of the U.S. aren't >hopeless yet. Aside from the fact that Lysander Spooner has been dead for a LONG time, and thus has no opinion concerning 1996 America, your "logic" is atrocious. He is saying: "If people think it might help, they might use the ballot." He is _not_ saying: "If people use the ballot, it means they think it might help." Maybe such subtleties of logic are beyond you... >In fact there is ample evidence that citizens who have come to believe >that a sovereign is beyond redemption refuse to participate in the >political process any longer. Iran, Iraq, the former Soviet Union, >Turkey, the Baltic States are all examples. I think that the main reason this observation is hilarious is that one frequent complaint from media types is (and has been, for decades) that there is a nearly steadily-decreasing voter turnout at the polls in the US. It is not my intention to make the same foolish logical error that you did. I won't claim, absolutely, that failure to participate in an election _must_ be evidence that people believe "a sovereign is beyond redemption." But since you've stepped into it, I intend to rub your nose in it as well. To whatever extent you believe your last claim, you should be willing to accept the obvious conclusion that many of the American public don't believe that the government is worth trying to retrieve, and they haven't for years. Which means that, as usual, you've ended up shooting yourself in your own foot. When you said: >>> >Funny, the latest primary has been one of the highest voter turn outs in >>> >quite a while (except in Deleware). Considering those are the law-and-order >>> >types who are most likely to invade personal liberities, I think its a >>> >bit hard to make the case that the temper of the country is anything but >>> >very pro-political process. I pointed out, correctly, that mere participation in the vote doesn't evidence any claim that a person is "very pro-political process." You've done a piss-poor job defending this. And you've forgotten that to whatever extent voter turnout is up with respect to past years, it is only "up" because it has been dramatically down for decades. You need to explain why a citizen, or citizens as a group, should be obligated to tolerate this political situation for decades without doing anything to bypass the political system when they appear to not believe in a reasonable likelihood that it'll fix itself. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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[reputationpunks] Article on Moody's
by s1113645＠tesla.cc.uottawa.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This week's Economist has a nice tidbit on bond rating agencies and antitrust on page 80. A comment on firms that trade mostly on their reps. Is an unsolicited rating by a for-profit agency an act of free speach or an act of defamation?

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Re: WWW User authentication
by stillson＠ashd.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:58 4/9/96 -0400, Jeff Barber wrote: >Brian C. Lane writes: > >> I just finished writing a cgi script to allow users to change their login >> passwords via a webpage. I currently have the webpage being authenticated >> with the basic option (uuencoded plaintext). MD5 would be nicer, but how >> many browsers actually support it? > >AFAIK, none. I don't see how this would be helpful anyway. If you >MD5 the password, I won't be able to snoop the password off the wire, >but I can simply snoop the MD5 hash off the wire instead and since >that's what your authentication check must now be against, what does >this buy you? > > Well, that isn't exactly how digest authentication works. In fact mister barber should figure out what he is talking about before saying anything. But, you can't really use a hash function to send the new password. >> When the user changes their password, the form sends their name, old >> password, and new password with it, in the clear. This is no worse than >> changing your password across a telnet connection, but I'd like it to be >> more secure, but useable by a large number of browsers. >> >> Any advice? > >Well, if you use SSL, it's useable by a "large number of browsers" since >Netscape has such a large share of the browser market. And then all of >the things you're doing w.r.t. authentication are hidden, at least from >casual eavesdroppers and others too if you use more than the 40-bit option. >There's really no other choice to reach a large number of browsers. > > >-- Jeff Once again mister barber is being an idiot. netscape is not a "large number of browsers". He is right that ssl is probably a good way to go. (shttp would be better :) ) You might be able to hack something together with java that did some kind of clever thing, but then you are limited again. CGI just isn't made for sending secure information. As far as digest (MD5) authenitcation goes, I know that the spyglass browser, and most of its derivatives (like m-soft i-net explorer) can use it. I know cause I did a lot of the QA on it. The real problem is finding a server that supports it. I don't know if apache or ncsa do, but they could probably be hacked to do it. If you download a spyglass server, I know it works (I did a lot of the early QA on that too ). But that probably doesn't help too much. You should probaly find something better than the web to do it. Chris ############################################ Chris Stillson Chief Rocket Scientist Resident Web Geek Hip Young Nerd Second Rate graphic designer Unix Guru In other words, Webmaster American Software & Hardware Distributors fluffy(a)ashd.com Check out our web site-> http://www.ashd.com Cause I did it all.... stop the CDA. Check http://www.eff.org ############################################

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Re: Open Systems, Closed Systems, & Killer Apps
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:33 AM 4/9/96 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >I should have known this before since it is implicit in my favorite article >from the Economist "THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING COMPANY" 15 December 1990 > >(http://www.ios.com/~lroth/CLIPS/Bussiz.html) Try http://www.ios.com/~lroth/clips/bussiz.html instead. DCF

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Background on Singapore net-censorship
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Michael, here's the message I was forwarded. Thanks to Joon-Nie for corrections to the articles I included, mainly from the NYT/WP and the Reuters/AP wire. -Declan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 03:57:22 EDT From: Lau Joon-Nie <joonlau(a)pacific.net.sg> Subject: [Fwd: Re: International Net-Censorship Efforts Update] Spotted this in a newsgroup, but I would caution readers against wholesale reliance on its contents without some official verification as not all of it may be entirely correct (at least the Singapore bits weren't - which I have amended). rgds, joon-nie =========BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE========= In soc.culture.singapore, "Declan B. McCullagh" <declan+(a)CMU.EDU> wrote: >I've just doubled the number of international net-censorship efforts >that I track on my web page: <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~declan/zambia/>. >Included are new updates reporting on Germany, France, Australia, >Singapore, Canada, and China, among others. Please send me reports on >countries I've missed! >-Declan >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OTHER INTERNATIONAL NET-CENSOR EFFORTS > By Declan McCullagh > declan(a)well.com > http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~declan/zambia/ > > France, China, Germany, Singapore, Jordan, the U.S., and many other > countries are moving towards tighter control of the Internet. France > and Germany want to see an international agreement of information > controls emerge. Recently China required all of its estimated 40,000 > Internet users to register at the local police station. This > international crackdown marks a turning point in the development of > the Net. > > Germany > > Germany cuts off access to holocaust revisionist web site (1/96) > German Internet update, new laws planned (3/29/96) > Los Angeles Times on German vs. U.S. netcensorship (3/13/96) > German minister predicts collapse of governments (3/12/96) > Germany's CompuServe net-censorship (12/31/95) > > France > > French government bans controversial book (1/96) > French Jewish students sue ISPs for revisionist materials (3/14/96) > French Jewish students sue ISPs for revisionist materials (3/15/96) > France calls for "global Internet rules" (2/3/96) > > Europe > > Swiss statement on voice over Internet (3/16/96) > Sweden proposes CDA-type law to control Internet (4/3/96) > Italian net-censorship necessary, says Simon Wiesenthal Ctr (1/11/96) > Turkey cracks down on Internet (2/18/96) > Belgium bans non-escrowed encryption (1/10/96) > > Asia and Pacific Rim > > Singapore leader condemns Net (3/7/96) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This phrase is at best vague. My guess is that he's referring to the news conference on 5 Mar 96 given by S'pore's Information and the Arts Minister Brig-Gen George Yeo where it was announced that S'pore would be implementing a regulatory framework to inter alia, block off objectionable sites, deem all content providers (except those "acting in personal capacity" - yet to be defined) as licensed, and requiring certain types of content providers (those publishing religious, political or racial content/discussions on websites, and certain online newspapers, in particular those already selling hardcopy versions in S'pore) to register themselves with the S'pore Broadcasting Authority. BG Yeo did not in any way "condemn" the internet. On the contrary, if my memory serves me correctly, he said S'pore was going full steam ahead with providing people with access eg. through schools, and that there were already an estimated 100,000 internet users in S'pore. For full text of the news release, see: http://www.antcrc.utas.edu.au/~kwe_chia/sef/SBA.html > Indonesia attacks Net (3/11/96) > Malaysia complains about uncensored Net, censors it (3/11/96) Again, this is not entirely accurate. If I recall correctly, Malaysian Information Minister said some censorship was necessary and agreed with S'pore that ASEAN should work tog to come up with some standards. A day or two later, M'sian Prime Minister Mahathir said something to the effect that censorship was not possible and that education was the key. No active measures by M'sia as far as I'm aware of. Perhaps TM Tan can enlighten us. :) > Singapore censors political, religious net.info (3/6/96) This was in relation to the news conference on 5 Mar 96 mentioned above on the *planned* regulatory framework. Details and legislation have yet to be tabled in Parliament so none of the proposals mentioned in the release have been carried out as yet although S'pore IASPs have, for several months now, been blocking off access to some 40-50 "objectionable sites" (read: pornographic) from a list given to them by the authorities. Framework details are expected within the next 2 months. Meanwhile a S'pore netter has submitted on 30/3/96 a petition supported by 40 signatories to the authorities against inter alia, regulation of political, religious, racial expression of ideas, and suggesting that govt ministries set up PR depts to counter such ideas if need be. > China > > China cracks down on Internet, "state security" cited (1/24/96) > China's anti-cyberporn efforts (2/4/96) > New York Times on China's net.crackdown (2/5/96) > China's history of Net-regulation, cyberporn concerns (1/1/96) > China requires Internet users to register with police (2/16/96) > U.S. State Dept criticizes China's net.censorship (3/8/96) > China applauds German net.censorship (1/11/96) > > Australia > > Australia considers net.legislation (2/13/96) > New South Wales tries net-censorship (4/3/96) > Australians upset by German Zundelcensorship (4/7/96) > > Canada > > Letter to Canadian minister (3/19/96) > Canada needs to regulate Net, says Simon Wiesenthal Ctr (2/20/96) > > Middle East > > Persian Gulf States reluctant to move online (4/6/96) > Jordan installs Internet screening facility (1/8/96) > Saudi Arabian government says no unrestricted Net access (1/10/96) >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- =========END FORWARDED MESSAGE========= *---------------------------* Lau Joon-Nie joonlau(a)pacific.net.sg "Even God has a Geiger-complex" - Dr Aaron Shut, Chicago Hope - *---------------------------*

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Re: Enforcing the CDA improperly may pervert Internet architecture
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:44 PM 4/9/96 -0500, Mike McNally wrote: >Scott Brickner wrote: >> Given your position, io.com is only accessible to adults in the world >> of the CDA advocates. Just upgrade your IP software to refuse >> connections from minors. > >It's not "my" IP software. I pay io for an account. What you're saying >is that every ISP would have to decide whether to be completely G-rated >or else open to anybody. Then they go on about how every school in the country needs to be connected to the net... I am wondering where they got the idea that the net is someplece they want their children to be. They don't let them play in distant parks inhabited by scary old men and drunks, yet they want them to play on the "information Superhighway". The CDA types seem to view the net the same way that they view TV in the classrooms. They expect it to be as easy to control as well. Get them all staring at the box and they will quiet down and do as they are told. What these people do not seem to understand is what is going to happen when their kids are exposed to the diverse opinions present on the net. Forget the porno... What are the parents who believe in Creationism going to do when little Johnny runs into a good skeptical site debunking all that crap? What are they going to do when the little liberal kids are exposed to the works of conservitives? Or Biblical Inerentists kidlets are exposed to the debunkings of that faith? Or Dorthy Denning's kids (if she has any) get exposed to the writings of the subversive known as Tim May? The CDA proponents want the ideas presented to their kids be controled ones. The existance of freedom on the net is a threat to that control. Porno is used as the (net)scapegoat, but there are far more threatening ideas out there to that kind of mindset. They just know that if they tell you their true goals, then people will not go along with them. If you want to know their real fears, read the stuff they write for the "faithful". It is far more revealing. ("Remember: It is not a conspiracy if you can subscribe to their newsletter.") >Sigh. That's probably what the CDA crowd wants. It's hard not to become >consumed by hatred. When reading Lovecraft, i always wondered what could be written down that would drive men mad. Lovecraft always described it as some cosmic horror. The cosmic is too far removed for most people to understand. I have always thought that instead, it described how the world worked and the driving motivations behind it, with the firm understanding that there was not a damn thing you could do to stop it. The understanding that the world is driven by the forces of ignorance and stupidity is enough to drive you to the brink. The Necronomicon was not written by the Mad Arab, it was written by Scott Adams. --- | Remember: Life is not always champagne. Sometimes it is REAL pain. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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Re: So, what crypto legislation (if any) is necessary?
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Black Unicorn wrote: > >I didn't respond to this part originally because I grew tired of typing > >"Yadda yadda yadda" everytime Mr. Bell lapsed into another > >psycho-political babble session. To which Jim Bell wrote: > And the rest of us are tired of seeing those non-responses! Exactly for whom is Bell speaking? Jimbo, please let us know who has given you a limited powers of attorney to be their mouthpiece. It's sad when someone (correctly) deems their opinions too weak to stand without (dare I say it?) pseudo- spoofing by reference. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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onyma
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May) writes: >Not meant to be snide, even if sounded that way. I just get confused by >your various nyms The term `nym' is erroneus: The Greek words are an-onym, pseud-onym, syn-onym, hom-onym pp, derived from `onyma', name.

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Scientologists may subpoena anonymous remailer records
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I thought that most or all of the cypherpunk anonymous remailers don't keep records. Not even on backup tapes. The whole idea is that there aren't logs. But maybe they have found some remailers that are non-cypherpunk. And I haven't verified the truth of what's in the msg below. If anyone hears anything, please let me (or eff(a)eff.org) know. John Gilmore Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:27:02 -0700 To: fight-censorship+(a)andrew.cmu.edu, eric(a)remailer.net, farber(a)cis.upenn.edu (Dave Farber) From: jwarren(a)well.com (Jim Warren) Subject: (fwd fyi - NOT verified!!) very urgent news Seems like it's just a tad overbroad, if true. Another example of, "all the 'justice' that one can buy"? --jim >Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: shelley thomson <sthomson(a)netcom.com> >Subject: very urgent news >To: jwarren(a)well.com > >Hello, Jim Warren: > > The church of scientology plans to subpoena the records of every >anonymous remailer in the USA. > > I publish a news/black humor magazine on the net called **Biased >Journalism**. As a journalist I have covered the collision between the >church of scientology and the net. My last three issues have focused on >legal action by the church against Grady Ward and Keith Henson. > > Today I had a note from Grady Ward, whose deposition was finished >today. He said that they asked him a lot of questions about me, and >warned me that they may issue a subpoena for me and a demand for my >email. > > The church presumably intends to claim that I am not a real >journalist because I only publish on the net. I need to prepare a legal >defense, and needless to say, can't afford a lawyer. If you can direct >me to any resources, I would appreciate it very much. > > On the basis of events today, Ward believes the church will >issue subpoenas for the records of every anonymous remailer in the USA. > > If these records are delivered to the church, our First Amendment >rights go with them. > > Shelley Thomson > > publisher, **Biased Journalism** > 800-731-0717 voice message

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Re: So, what crypto legislation (if any) is necessary?
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:08 PM 4/9/96 -0700, Bill Frantz wrote: >At 3:21 PM 4/9/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >>And the rest of us are tired of seeing those non-responses! > >I wish to state that Jim Bell does not speak for me. Tell me, what is the most exciting, interesting, and imaginative usage of "Yadda Yadda Yadda" that _you_ remember, Bill?

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