December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: "Proprietary" internetworking protocols (was RE: The future will be easy to use )
by Pete Loshin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Oops, sorry about the unfortunate juxtaposition of POTP with the SKIP thread. I didn't mean to imply anything more about POTP than that they were around in Boston in case anyone wanted to talk to them. My comments about "proprietary" internetworking protocols related to discussion of Sun's SKIP, not at all to POTP, whose protocol hasn't been published and won't be published if they don't get their patent. I was simply observing that Perry's comment: "...an internetworking protocol [e.g. SKIP] used by only one vendor gets nowhere." is not necessarily true, and pointed to SSL and NFS as counter-examples. -pl Phill wrote: >Both Netscape and Sun had a product that had a large number of seats. From what I >have seen the POTP have diddly squat in the way of seats. > >Looking at the market today it is clear that there are fewer oppotunities to do that >type of roll out. Netscape and Sun were running just ahead of a market. Today I >don't see how many people will want to abandon PGP for a product that is >indistinguishable from smoke 'n mirrors. > > Phill

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Re: The future will be easy to use
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Jon Lasser writes: >> However, if you have optional linking of ID and name, shippers will only >> ship to keys with such attributes. Because just ID and address, it could >> be a "hit and run" type attack shipped to a safe maildrop. At 03:19 AM 11/30/95 -0500, Futplex wrote: >People who steal credit cards prefer to order goods to be delivered somewhere >they can grab them. Presumably all of us seek a ecash and echeque system somewhat better than a human readable sixteen decimal digit number: Indeed, what I had in mind was 1024 binary bit number -- we should be working to a world in which a self generated secret PGP key performs the functions that a credit card number does today. (Often this is just the front of the rightful owner's >home, while Holly the Homeowner is off at work.) But that's just another >reason to cut down unauthorized credit card charges, not a reason to restrict >what a rightful cardholder can do with the card. I _want_ to be able to have >stuff delivered to arbitrary locations, and I _don't_ want to give that up >just to make it tough on thieves. > >James Donald writes: >> This argument makes no sense at all: I am going to attack my >> enemies by paying people to send books, computers, and stuff >> to them? > >Ordering hardcore porno videos to be sent to, say, somewhere in Tennessee >might work pretty well in our sadly repressed society. > >-Futplex <futplex(a)pseudonym.com> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

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Re: The future will be easy to use
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Rich Salz <rsalz(a)osf.org> > > There is, of course, no way to interpret the semantics of this electronically. At 10:11 AM 11/30/95 EST, Carl Ellison wrote: > Of course not. In the end, a human needs to make the decision based on > ASCII text. For those ascii texts that belong to a small and commonly used set, we can set our computers to automatically follow certain policies, and to bring to our attention "special case" texts that lie outside this set. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

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cypherpunks at ietf
by Bob Bruen, MIT Lab for Nuclear Science 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I thought the following mail might be of interest. It's not my doing. Bob ========================================================================= From: SMTP%"MEYERUSA(a)aol.com" 30-NOV-1995 10:25:39.59 To: BRUEN CC: Subj: Re: DISCUSSION FOR IETF DALLAS Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:49:15 -0500 Sender:ietf-request@IETF.CNRI.Reston.VA.US From: MEYERUSA(a)aol.com Message-ID: <951130084914_120843907(a)mail06.mail.aol.com> To: rgm3(a)is.chrysler.com cc: ietf(a)CNRI.Reston.VA.US, SteveCase(a)aol.com Subject: Re: DISCUSSION FOR IETF DALLAS THE WWW MUST BE CONSUMER FRIENDLY IF IT IS TO SURVIVE. THE AVERAGE CONSUMER THRU A PC, OR A "DEDICATED WEB TERMINAL ON TOP OF THEIR TV SET", MUST BE ABLE TO USE THE WEB IN THE FUTURE TO: 1. SEARCH FOR CONSUMER GOODS; ORDER CONSUMER GOODS. 2. USE THE WEB FOR TELEPHONE COMMUNICATIONS AND E-MAIL 3. DOWNLOAD TIME SHIFT AUDIO & VIDEO 4. DOWLOAD MOVIES, SOFTWARE, AND P.P.V. EVENTS 5. HOOK ON-LINE TO VIDEO & AUDIO THE WWW AND THE ON-LINE SERVICES MUST BE ABLE TO DIAL OUT TO THE CONSUMER ALSO. OUR BIGGEST FUTURE PROBLEM IS THAT WE CAN NOT LET BILL GATES, NOR THE TELEPHONE COMPANIES, NOR THE CABLE TV COMPANIES, NOR THE MADISON AVENUE ADVERTISING AGENCIES GET CONTROL OF THE WWW. OUR CURRENT PROBLEM IS THAT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER CAN NOT COMPLETE AN ACCURATE SEARCH ON THE WEB. COMPANIES MUST BE ABLE TO PROTECT THEIR TRADEMARKS AND SERVICE MARKS, AND TO EMBED EVERY POSSIBLE KEYWORD IN THEIR SITE SO THAT IN THE FUTURE A CONSUMER COULD ENTER AT THE SEARCH LINE: "SHOW ALL DEALERS IN BALTIMORE THAT SELL CHRYSLER MINI-VANS" AND AN ACCURATE SEACH OF THE WEB WILL BE RETURNED. AT THIS POINT SO MANY CYBERPUNKS HAVE EMBEDDED SO MUCH GARBAGE ON THE WEB, THAT YOU CAN NOT COMPLETE AN ACCURATE SEARCH. OUR COMPANY HAS BEEN ASKED BY THE NEW YORK AUTO SHOW TO CREATE THE MOST HIGHTECH VIRTUAL REALITY MOTION SIMULATOR THEATRE FOR THE 1996 NEW YORK AUTO SHOW. DURING OUR RESEARCH, WE ENTERED "NEW YORK AUTO SHOW" IN OUR WEB CRAWLER (AMERICA ON-LINE). YOU COULD NOT BELIEVE ALL OF THE GARBAGE THAT WAS RETURNED FROM OUR SEARCH. ADDITIONALLY FOR EXAMPLE, IF ON AMERICA ON-LINE YOU NEED TO SEND AN E-MAIL TO DONALD TRUMP OR TO AOL'S STEVE CASE, WHEN YOU SEARCH THE AOL MEMBER DATABASE, WHO IS THE REAL DONALD TRUMP OR THE REAL STEVE CASE. IN SUMMARY, WHAT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED AT IETF IN DALLAS NEXT WEEK IS A STANDARD THAT PROTECTS TRADEMARKS AND SERVICE MARKS, AND ALSO A POLICING AGENCY THAT WILL DETERMINE THAT DONALD TRUMP IS AT DONALD TRUMP@, CHRYSLER IS AT CHRYSLERY@ BILL GATES IS AT BILL GATES@, ETC. BUT MORE IMPORTANT, WE NEED TO CLEANUP THE TRASH THAT THE CYBER-PUNKS ARE PLACING ON THE WEB. ED MEYER

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Re: Netscape gives in to key escrow
by Ravi Pandya 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If you're looking for an alternative Web browser for Windows, we just made ours available for free at www.netmanage.com. It's fast and reliable, and supports HTML 3.0, inline video, software distribution, VRML (NT version), Real Audio, TrueSpeech, etc. Ravi **** Home of Chameleon TCP/IP Applications for Windows and **** **** ECCO Personal & Group Information Manager for Windows **** Ravi Pandya Director of ECCO Engineering NetManage Inc 2340 130th Avenue NE Bellevue, WA 98005 206 867 3722 voice 206 885 0127 fax ravip(a)netmanage.com

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RE: "Proprietary" internetworking protocols (was RE: The future will be easy to use )
by Pete Loshin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Perry wrote: >Pete Loshin writes: >> I was simply observing that Perry's comment: >> >> "...an internetworking protocol [e.g. SKIP] used by only >> one vendor gets nowhere." >> >> is not necessarily true, and pointed to SSL and NFS as >> counter-examples. > >I disagree. > >First of all, NFS was not competing with other widely available >standards. Neither was SSL, for that matter. But it seems like every vendor who's written an S-HTTP browser/server is adding SSL for version 1.1. >Second of all, other vendors are committed to developing the other >standard. > >What good will it be to run SKIP when your Cisco router wants to talk >to you with something else? None, of course, just as rsh doesn't help me connect to a telnet server. My comment wasn't on the wisdom of SKIP, but rather on the specific statement Perry made about single vendors being able to drive certain protocols on their own (e.g., SSL and others). More interesting from the historical view (but lacking in crypto significance so I'll refrain from further posting on the topic) is the question of what other protocols have been put forth by single vendors and gained major market share. -pl

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Re: [Rant!] Death by praise Re: Netscape gives in to key escrow
by KJC＠cityscape.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Jay Holovacs wrote: > >> On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Timothy C. May wrote: >> > Can Netscape continue to prosper? This latest issue won't kill it, >> >> I suspect this will unfortunately help. Stockholders are interested in >> profits, not principles. Co-oping with the feds will help Netscape get to >> the commercial market sooner, and most customers, sadly don't give a damn >> about privacy (or don't understand). > ><Rant mode on> >Clipper and family are vampires; shine some light on them and they're dead. >Witness the public ridicule of the FBI 1% scheme. Compare that to the near >mainstream silence about DT. The last round of Clipper was wonderful, for >a while in '94 we had Time sounding like Brock Meeks. > >If Jim Clark really does mean this nonsense then I hope he does a Dorothy >Denning and takes his show on the road (sorry Jeff). This is simply >easy fodder for journalists without a story, totally black and white >cheap shot at the gov. While people don't give a damn about their privacy, >they sure do get mad when they're shown how easy it is to take away. >They *hate* hearing the $ cost. > >Maybe some of the people on this list with higher profiles than myself should >start defending Clipper and GAK as loudly and stupidly as possible. I've >grown dead tired of trying to get anyone around me interested in pgp, >remailers and whatnot. Reverse psycho sounds a lot easier: > >"Noted counterterrorism expert Timothy May was quoted on Connie Chung Live >last night as saying "Clipper, GAK and CTHULHU666 are a hundred billion >dollar investment in your national security. Only through complete wiretapping >will we save our nation's children from violent cigarette smokers, tax >cheaters, unlicensed pit-bull owners, Tax 'n Spend Liberals, murderous Nation >of Islam Dope Pushers, audiophiles, christians, fat people, OJ and >jaywalkers on the infohighway." -USA Today" > >(Apologies. You may now killfile me with a clear conscience.) > >If you can't beat 'em, subvert 'em. > > > As a _very_ low profile member of this list I thought a futile gesture was needed at this point: *I agree with you* I've been trying to interest the BBC in the U.K. in pgp, clipper et al for ages - I give up!.- BTW- after 'Britland' MPs posted hear a while back I thought _maybe_ we'd hear more.Will the last one to leave Grate Britain please switch out the lights! kc ------------------------------------------------------ Fingerprint:OF 3B IE 6A 8D 14 EC 9B 75 9B FB A2 E8 35 FE Finger: .plan + public key -> af91(a)ftp.cityscape.co.uk http://www.gold.net/users/af91/kjc.htm "...and now...five in a row by Whitney Houston" ------------------------------------------------------

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List of reliable remailers
by anonymous-remailer＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Raph Levien wrote: > Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: > (robo syrinx c2) > (flame hacktic replay) > (alumni portal) Anything more specific on the above info? robo, syrinx, c2 all running on c2.org alumni, portal run by Hal Finney hacktic, replay run on xs4all / by Alex de Joode? ok so far, but flame is xs4all/de Joode as well? flame used to be: Slovenian Anonymous Remailer <remailer(a)flame.sinet.org> Does the fact that it is now listed along with hacktic and replay now imply that it is no longer / never was in Slovenia? The reason for asking is that jurisdictions are interesting properties for remailers. The more jurisdictions available the better the legal morass can be created by remailing through 101 different jurisdictions. Speaking of which, these new additions: ford <remailer(a)bi-node.zerberus.de> ecafe <cpunk(a)remail.ecafe.org> are welcome aditions both being in Europe (Germany, and UK respectively) Any other European/Australasian cypherpunks care to add a remailer in their jurisdiction? Alice de 'nonymous ... [just giving the acquired nym a work out, and I wanted to ask the Q anyway, so I thought I may as well flesh this Nym out, and give it a better rep than the impostor who refuses to sign posts :-) Again, anything that isn't signed isn't from me.] ...just another one of those... P.S. This post is in the public domain. C. S. U. M. O. C. L. U. N. E. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBML3jzIbu8OQjKS7RAQFIQQP/ShGx18pfAT0TZcsAaY0T/LRuaXkE+C+k 9lL6mXo/FY1bHDXFUsNkb4wjJx6RujyMRWL6eI7T/ph531CY2wYaBzVdMXHjPy8m kCMSZai08WlLJboe06tlZCGHvpDEqGPATZd1VZoulFSD1F9Ughhidspvp9/jqIR8 q/cZbGkWSrY= =vvNf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: The future will be easy to use
by attila 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, P. Rajaram wrote: > On Nov 29, 10:25pm, attila wrote: > > Subject: Re: The future will be easy to use > > OK, I have not seen it (like I said, I will get it) or read ipsec. > > > > However, despite the group ego, Sun _does_ listen and Sun does wish to > > be the leader. If the rest of ipsec group has a specific list, maybe it > > needs to presented higher up the pole. > > There are different groups within Sun. > The people pushing SKIP don't talk much with the group building IPv6. > that's a given. NIBM (not invented by ME) syndrome. That is what needs to stop. however, Sun has been playing the game recently of introducing an early product, then coming on with a more standard product. that does not change the fact the twogroups need to talk, and someone needs to coordiante resources. Nothing wrong if SKIP shakes out a few details as they implement, but then it needs to go to the standards.

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[NOISE] Re: cypherpunks at ietf
by Frank Stuart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

[...] >THE WWW MUST BE CONSUMER FRIENDLY IF IT IS TO SURVIVE. > >THE AVERAGE CONSUMER THRU A PC, OR A "DEDICATED WEB TERMINAL ON TOP OF THEIR >TV SET", MUST BE ABLE TO USE THE WEB IN THE FUTURE TO: > > 1. SEARCH FOR CONSUMER GOODS; ORDER CONSUMER GOODS. > 2. USE THE WEB FOR TELEPHONE COMMUNICATIONS AND E-MAIL > 3. DOWNLOAD TIME SHIFT AUDIO & VIDEO > 4. DOWLOAD MOVIES, SOFTWARE, AND P.P.V. EVENTS > 5. HOOK ON-LINE TO VIDEO & AUDIO 6. View text in lower case. :> [...] | (Douglas) Hofstadter's Law: Frank Stuart | It always takes longer than you expect, even fstuart(a)vetmed.auburn.edu | when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

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