At 12:02 AM 10/24/95, Ian Goldberg wrote:

We should be keeping in mind that the goal here is to end up, in one way or another, with a _secure_ way of transacting on the net. To that end, it may be necessary to demonstrate that some current products don't provide that way. We certainly don't want people to be scared away from using one insecure product, only to use another, especially if the latter is less secure than the former. ... Everything would be _so_ much easier to check, though, if these people would stop this "security through obscurity" garbage and publish their protocols, if not their source.

- Ian "Mr. Worf, activate targetting scanners."

I don't wish to beat a dead horse, but my main point is not that we (the list members, and others) should not be scrutinizing and trying to break systems, but that it should be done with less general nastiness. What do I mean by "nastiness"? (And let me first hasten to add that neither Ian Goldberg nor his partner were nasty in their attacks on Netscape.) The problem I see is that people often _personalize_ the attacks, or treat members of companies who show up on the list as _adversaries_. I can't know for sure if the various folks from Netscape, First Virtual, Digicash, Intuit, etc., who hang out on this list feel besieged, but I know I sure would. If everything I said, even with disclaimers that I don't speak officially, were to be torn apart and the ulterior motives speculated upon, I'd either shut up on this list or get off it completely. (Recall that we had Marc Andreessen on this list last December--for whatever reasons, and there are likely several, he left. I recall many attacks on his company. He perhaps figured "What the hell do I need this for?") Legitimate, scientific analysis is commendable. The brute force attack on Netscape was great, and even better was the random seed attack. But many of the attacks are less solid: "How can you people at Digital Datawhack produce such crap? The assumptions you make in the Flogisticon module are disgusting, another example of security through obscenity." (What I think this piling on is likely to accomplish is to push company list subscribers here to just shut up. They see that the more is said by folks from Netscape, as the best current example, the more fireworks and insults ensue. The less that is said the better. This is not a good situation.) I'm not arguing for "niceness," just that some of the edge be taken off the attacks. The "bounties" that are being offered in press releases have the danger of inviting premature announcement of results. And of discouraging companies from actively participating in this list and discussing what might be done to improve security. Just my views. No doubt some will think I'm a shill for some company. --Tim May Views here are not the views of my Internet Service Provider or Government. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."