December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

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by postmaster＠cnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Reformated: How secure....
by Paul Koning 1695 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(Re Steve O's Privasoft followup) Your reply didn't really answer all the questions that have been raised. You mention a 2 digit key extension, so does that mean the key is 11 digits? If not, how is a key extension different from a key? Given that the program is exportable, why is it any stronger than any other exportable system? Re how you would recognize readable text: if the scramble is good, the output would tend to look like white noise. An invalid decrypt would have the same general look. But a valid one would have the properties of a normal fax, which is long run lengths. So if you do a run length check on the data, you could readily distinguish a valid decrypt from an invalid one. Incidentally, I looked at the sample encrypted document on the web. It has an amazing amount of structure in it, and certainly doesn't look at all like the white noise I expected. That in itself suggests a weakness. (Notice the dashed lines running down the page, 7 of them...) Also, you forgot to address the known plaintext attack. If I have both plaintext and cyphertext, then recognition of the correct decryption is no longer an issue (it's simply a compare). For the system to be valid by modern standards it has to be secure against a known plaintext attack, and preferably against a chosen plaintext attack. (In other words, if I get you to fax an image of my choosing I should still not be able to recover the key.) It doesn't appear that it is secure in that sense. Finally, the property you mention of being able to cope with damaged images doesn't sound at all unique. You would fail to have this property if you use a block cypher with long blocks, a cypher with error propagation (e.g. CBC mode in DES), or any cypher applied to the compressed form of the fax. But any stream cypher or transposition cypher (as I gather you use) applied against the raw bitmap has this property, since any flaws in the encrypted image would simply become noise in the plaintext image. (A black line would become a gray line in a stream cypher; in a transposition cypher it becomes pixel dust on the page.) paul

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Re: MD5 weakness ? [was Re: Netscape Logic Bomb detailed by IETF]
by Nathan Zook 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:42 AM 10/24/95 -0400, Dr. Frederick B. Cohen wrote: >> > [...] uses an MD5 checksum which the members >> > of this list seem to place unlimited trust in (incorrectly in my view, >> > but that would be picking two nits with one keyboard entry). >> >> Can you elaborate with facts on the supposed weakness of MD5 ? > >I didn't say that there were any weaknesses in MD5, all I said was: > "unlimited trust ... (incorrectly in my view...)" > ... >> [btw who talked about 'unlimited' trust ?] > >There has been no limit given by anyone on this list to the level of >trust they place in MD5. Several people have posted (without >contention) that MD5 is sufficiently trustworthy to trust billions of >dollars in commerce to it's being able to prevent a selected plaintext >attack as eluded to above. If you think we should trust it, and you >don't limit your assessment of trust, what other assumption should I >make? If several people proclaim that trust and nobody stands up in >disagreement, tacit agreement is my normal (although not necessarily >justified) assumption. > The dear "Dr." Cohen strikes again: It would appear that "Dr." Cohen continues to assume that this list appeared the moment he first posted, or that we love to type the same symbols over and over. This list places no more trust in MD5 than in IDEA--or RSA, for that matter. But since banks CURRENTLY trust RSA for billions of dollars in transactions (and, I believe with fairly small moduli) this trust is the usual trust of experience. In fact there HAVE been discussions of the security of MD5 on this list--but since they occured before the good "Dr." Cohen arrived, perhaps we should have them again for his sake. But since most of us tire of typing (and reading) endless explainations that we DON'T trust something absolutely, we don't. We also don't spend all of our time correcting slightly overgeneralized statements. And of course there is the small fact that quite a few people here believe that if anyone is foolish enough to place absolute trust in an algorithm, who are we to disabuse them? But if "Dr." Cohen wishes to discuss the weaknesses of MD5, he should focus his attention on his prefered whipping dog--PGP. Some versions of PGP had an insecure implementation of MD5. But of course the "Dr." should know that an insecure implementation is very far from a demonstration that an algorithm is insecure. Nathan Zook --- Now installing Linux 3.0 or something...

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Returned mail: unknown mailer error 2
by Mail Delivery Subsystem 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The original message was received at Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:44:00 +0100 from meriadoc.sophos.com [193.82.145.1] ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- |/home/ian/.mailscript (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: <ian(a)elbereth.sophos.com>) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- /home/ian/.mailscript: syntax error near unexpected token `|/' /home/ian/.mailscript: /home/ian/.mailscript: line 1: `|/usr/bin/filter -vo /home/ian/.elm/filterlog' 554 |/home/ian/.mailscript... unknown mailer error 2 ----- Original message follows ----- From: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 18:05:29 +0100 Apparently-To: ian(a)virusbtn.com Hello

1 0

Re: Sun speaks out - but not to the cypherpunks
by todd＠lgt.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >In article <v02110101acaf51651ef9(a)[204.156.156.4]>, >Todd Glassey <todd(a)lgt.com> wrote: >[ lines marked > > are from fc(a)all.net (Dr. Frederick B. Cohen) ] >> Pardon the flame but I really have just about heard enough of this BS... >[...] >> >> The area where we can (must) build trust is the computing base. >> >> Traditionally, this has been the OS, but in the case of java, it is >> >> the java interpreter (such as netscape 2.0 and hotjava). The browser >> >> is now the TCB (trusted computer base) for all practical purposes... >> > >> >Read: The Java interpreter is supposed to be a TCB. >[...] >> >Who here truly believes that the implementations of Java meet the >> >requirements of a TCB? >[...] >> Dr. Fred, you seem to spend a lot of engery slamming Java and HotJava. >[ ... flame deleted ... ] > > >No, here I think Dr. Cohen's comments are right on the mark. > >The Java interpreter *is* supposed to be a trusted computing base. >Do we have any reason to believe that this trust is well-placed? > >(If you don't agree, go through the Orange Book evaluation criteria, >and pay special attention to the assurance sections...) >- --- >[This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature >means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the >signature and forwarded.] > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.2 >Comment: Gratis auto-signing service > >iQBFAwUBMIwG2CoZzwIn1bdtAQEpowGAgHiyk0tTQk5SO/3TR5EZRMFmUy/TjQmu >NbYIt0R/Tf0g9xWbolm5XN0alu947uJs >=UZH0 >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Sorry abopt the above flame-war I caused. My point was almost benign in and of itself. Yes, the Java concept is sound, No, the currently available implementation has some real architectural considerations that must be addressed in order that we can build a stable and secure platform atop it. My real issue is that there is so much time spent on this list knocking the individual spokes that make up this wheel we call Electronic Commerce, that it is more and more costly to filter out the technology from the background noise. Still because of the value of that technology, I and others are forced to spend precious hours reviewing all that comes across our desks. Bluntly being an active member of several Security and Payment Mechanism working groups I view some 150+ pieces of email a day and sometimes get frustrated by the amount of noise, or the roar in the background, about what are to the largest percentage of us, meaningless dribble... Still there is the occaisional golden nugget that makes it all worth while.. Again My apologies to have stirred up this mess. I will retreat under my desktop from the mele' that seems to be unending. Todd Regards, T. S. Glassey Chief Technologist Looking Glass Technologies todd(a)lgt.com (415) 324-4318 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQB1AwUBMFu5E6gNRnWhagU5AQHI+gL+Mwpcd3lAWd8FF06qcG6rnLhIYveHW71a XC7xh1T0uu8qnYX31yMp17OG28jWpKUbWec1IM9/eXOi+gInA7rKICWczV8zo9Z0 0puxjRRN7yO4KfRb3cPpk+r0p6pDg01Y =bTYb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Crypto's Role in Evil?
by Carl Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:20:41 -0700 I'm late getting to my mail backlog. >From: tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May) >It's clear that cops cannot protect people, only try to catch the perpetrators. I heard a particularly scary quote from Director Freeh last Sunday on NPR's Weekend Edition (I believe that was the show -- segment A-1) in which he declared "our job is to protect the people". If that were the FBI's job, then we'd have to look at it as one does to a loving parent and give it all the authority and respect a child gives a parent. - Carl +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme(a)acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |PGP: E0414C79B5AF36750217BC1A57386478 & 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | | ``Officer, officer, arrest that man! He's whistling a dirty song.'' | +---------------------------------------------- Jean Ellison (aka Mother) -+

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Re: Does your software?
by pcw＠access.digex.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>My get-only server is available in source form, is 80 lines long and >thus easily understood, has been shown to meet security properties, is >now in the process of being mathematically proven to meet those >properties, and is published in a refereed journal which can be used to >confirm its contents in detail. Hence, I do provide secure distribution >through purely physical means. > Uh, proofs only go so far. There was one Cornell CS professor who was a real devotee of "proving" your programs correct. He even published one of his proofs in a "refereed" journal. Big whoop. It still had an error. Proofs can help identify flaws, but they can never rule out all flaws. That's why their name is so bogus. I wouldn't be surprised if you could prove that the Finger daemon, which is sort of like a really low-level GET-ONLY HTTP server, is also safe. In fact, your math proving ability could probably even prove the pre-Robert Morris finger daemon is safe and secure. If programmers don't think of preventing finger requests longer that 512 bytes then why should the head-in-the-clouds program provers? - Peter >-- >-> See: Info-Sec Heaven at URL http://all.net >Management Analytics - 216-686-0090 - PO Box 1480, Hudson, OH 44236 P.S. "FC" is your log in and "FC is found inscribed in the writings of the Unabomber. Coincidence?

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[NOISE] Re: Hack DigiCash: Payee Anonymity
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ObCrypto: Slim to None, peripheral at best. At 07:55 PM 10/24/95 +0100, some annoying nym wrote: >Now all we need is to do is get some specs on how DigiCash's software works >so that we can code this. I expect that this method will become quite >popular. To withdraw DigiCash, one must come up with $250 to start, sign a >bunch of forms, etc. I suspect that most people would rather change money >in lesser amounts, probably under $50. This opens up a huge market for >Blacknet money exchangers. I would gladly pay Tim's Internet Cash Exchange >a commission to exchange $50 worth of greenbacks for Digicash instead of >dealing with Mark Twain and shelling out $250 to start.. Irrelevant point: To open an account as a consumer, not a merchant, and solely for DigiCash use, only $11 (!) is required. Although I'll agree with the bunch of forms part. Damn, I wish I understood legalese... Dave - ----- David E. Smith, "dsmith(a)midwest.net", PGP ID 0x92732139 http://www.midwest.net/scribers/dsmith/ Sorry, the full signature is on strike pending DigiCash salary negotiations -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMI1uAgwyfvCScyE5AQHvpAP+MrQ0vflUe6q7uyXa0PHlyMttf50StEdX eYsXOlN9wLWH9yF6Wkvx8kXQS9sOE7anMYEk42VvwETq3y1EduP3dYAvSW2h7EG2 X4z0wsUT1l3drcq5ieeakA1nwGmHuQdMgPNaPZ8pvIGluTGobKAvta4Ea0MHy8HY YdvbDA4w0x0= =69WP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Weekly Type-II Remailer List
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Packet Radio - KG5RG(a)WA4IMZ.#SETX.TX.USA.NA WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by mkpgp, a Pine/PGP interface. iQEVAwUBMI0i8qghiWHnUu4JAQFyRgf8CRcpz+KPl84PGWpZGG5X0gdsjheBdV+f Kk3RJzj48tadeeV3AGXy1u+W+S8W+BRjAqu52TGD97i38N9CemltHYn+zU+M7tNN MY/gV7TGBqhOsCs7jOxH9XovyI59DI9rDVft6FIrHLBlSYsM73v6wApXAwEmVhXl WgPMJotkQZOmekMvo4Z2qGJMqMpB5tgzIHqOB+i/Y1w65bG+31KqYiaudr2nGxuX KV09GwGk4993eYIoZIQLCEBAyxI+j5/tymQEk7hc6veaZG4FkuBo5cp6OnFiexTD JrDE8g5Cx/JAGRa5FST9faQb8cjIUqOov8YPrcOcF7/54e+bIUmLcQ== =3CrR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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80 bit security from 40 bit exportable products
by baldwin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Long ago vendors should have put encryption into network layer products, but for a variety of reasons that effort was delayed or discouraged. One effect of this lack is that almost every layer of the network stack is adding its own encryption. For example, the HTTP session layer added S-HTTP and the TCP transport layer added SSL. Soon we will have network layer encryption with IPsec. The vendors for each layer can export a product that uses ciphers with 40 bit keys. A user can then combine multiple products to get more than 40 bits worth of security. For example, a web client might fetch an S-HTTP page over an SSL protected link via a firewall that supports IPsec tunnels. That's three 40 bit keys protecting the data over the internet link (of course, this may not be equivalent to a 120 bit cipher, that depends on the details of the cipher systems and independence of the key setups). Interesting possibilities. --Bob Baldwin

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