December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: CYPHERPUNK considered harmful
by aba＠atlas.ex.ac.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dimitri Vulis <dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com> writes: > Anything posted to the main cypherpunks mailing list and the > spun-off mailing lists (steganogrpahy, remailers, nym servers, etc) > could be posted to the newsgroup by maiking one of the mail2news > gateways a subscriber. Not sure that would be a good idea, then the news group would *be* cypherpunks, and the cypherpunks list would have effectively become a USENET newsgroup (albiet with some mail2news stuff behind). For me part of the fun of cypherpunks is that things get discussed here which don't get discussed anywhere else, things happen here 1st, rc4 leak, that kind of thing, if it's happening crypto wise, it's on cypherpunks. You might lose some of the community feel to it if it was gated straight to a USENET group, I mean at that point the majordomo list server would have become a news2mail gateway. I was thinking more that you would have a separate newsgroup, but perhaps my feelings are more of the elitist stuff Peter was referring to, still I see no need to change a good thing, can't the two co-exist separately, Peter's stated aims didn't co-incide with my perception of the cypherpunks lists goals. ie the list (modulo cpunks write code wars) seems to me to be about people who share the common goal of free crypto for everyone, discussing how to go about this, writing code to help it happen, and analysis of what the government is up to where it infringes on cypherpunk goals. I think Peter's goals sounded more amenable to a forum which was a) easily accessible, and b) had a stated aim of a kind of cypherpunk technology transfer forum. Perhaps I am being eliteist, so shoot me, but I like cypherpunks the list the way it is! For your convenience reading cpunks there are a couple of solutions to the deluge of mail problem: there used to be a nntp server at nntp.hks.net which nntp served cypherpunks as a newsgroup (I haven't used this in a while as it appeared to be down or empty or somthing for a while), there are filters which you can set up to put all cpunks traffic in a separate mbox, and there are a couple of digest forms of cpunks around also. The filter won't help your down load time, the digest (I think Hal offers / was offering an encrypted digest which would also be compressed) and the nntp server might. > > Reckon cypherpunks as a group has enough readers to hmm, push through > > a vote for group creation, if the majority thought it was a useful > > exercise. A group soley for what? cypherpunks technology, social > > No vote is needed to create an alt.group: something like > 'alt.security.cypherpunks' or 'alt.privacy.cypherpunks'. Just post a proposal > to alt.config, post many articles seconding the proposal, let it be discussed > for a week, then issue a newgroup. Me, I quite like the cypherpunk name, I reckon it would be best from a distribution pov to get a big8 group, as you discuss. > To create a newsgroup in the 'big 8' (comp., sci., etc) one needs to > deal with unpleasant control freaks like group-advice, news.groups, > and David Lawrence. It takes up to 6 months. On the other hand, > many sites that have Usenet have comp.* but not alt.*. Their users > would still have to use the mailing lists or find another site. To > create something like comp.security.cypherpunks (I think this would > be the most appropriate place, since there's already c.s.announce, > c.s.misc, and c.s.firewalls), talk to the group-advice cabal. I'll let other people argue about newsgroups names. Adam

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Re: CYPHERPUNK considered harmful.
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Tim writes: >Indeed, some people here have been calling themselves by various names >("CypherGeek," "Crypto Rebel," etc.) for a long time. Personally, I despise >the terms "geek," "dweeb," and "nerd," and think anyone who calls themselves >by these insults is not "reclaiming and deconstructing the labels of the >oppressor class," as the slogan goes, but is merely insulting themselves. >Blacks who call themselves "niggers," homosexuals who call themselves >"queers," and computer programmers who call themselves "geeks" and "dorks" >are all playing the same game. I fail to see how you can write this, and then claim it's OK to call yourself a 'punk'. >A better approach is for the "conservatives" who want a "more conservative" >name to simply do what I suggested: form a new group and name it what they >like. They wouldn't have to quit this list, they would just be able to >cleanly recruit for their new list. >Seems simple to me. And honest. And less devisive than trying to change the >name of a group with a long history (by modern standards) and with several >well-known achievements. Who is trying to be dishonest, and what are they trying to be dishonest about? I'm really confused by this. Tim, I don't want to take your toy away, or minimize the acheivements of the cypherpunks (among whom I somewhat presumptively include myself). OK. Let's NOT drop the term 'cypherpunk'. However, I do think we need to have available another term for 'people with our interests' if we're going to have maximal effectiveness. What follows is my original followup, written last night. - --------------------------------------------------------------- I've gotten a number of responses to my post 'Cypherpunk considered harmful." It's pretty clear that a lot of people did not really understand what I was getting at. This is my fault. I'll try to clarify. What is the situation on the ground, here in mid September 1995? It's utterly clear that the US and other governments, are dead set against the widespread use of strong, unencumbered crypto. 'They' are using many different (and weak) pretexts to delay or prevent it's incorporation into commercial software. If there is a hidden state agenda, 'our' belief is it is that the state wishes to retain it's current ability to spy unseen on the citizenry, wiretapping with or without warrents, and examine stored information without the cooperation of the owner. The general 'cypherpunk viewpoint', if I may generalize, is diametrically opposite: It's not really a hidden agenda, since frequent rants make it pretty clear. Since we're not a unified command and control system like the state, different cypherpunks have different goals, but I hazard that most would agree with: 'Strong, uencumbered cryptography is an empowerment tool for the electronic age; it strengthens the individual in relation to the state, allowing him (or her) to communicate privately, and store his data as securely as if it resided in his own head. The widespread use of strong cryptography will lead to social changes that we regard as desirable.' If you accept this arguably paranoid vision of our situation, then it's clear that we are in a battle for the hearts and minds of the people: The State wants to convince people that their safety and prosperity lies in trusting Big Brother to watch over and take care of them, and nothing but danger lies outside of BB's line of sight. The cypherpunks take a much more libertarian viewpoint; that the state is already too strong and intrusive, and that cryptography will not only allow us to engage in commerce and protect ourselves against crime, it will also allow us to act outside of improper state control. But time is running out. All the state has to do is convince people that strong unescrowed encryption is needed only by criminals - if you trust the state, there is no reason to object to it being able to listen in - after all, all laws are reasonable, and the state won't listen in without a warrant. 'We' have a harder task. We need to convince people that they need encryption - it will protect us against criminals, snoops, and hackers, and the state's proposals will not do this. It's a much more subtle thesis, without the easy emotional hooks that can be exploited by the state to promote it's position. I don't think we can turn people into libertarians, and then get them to adopt cryptography to protect themselves from the statists. At least, not enough people to count in the short term, and the short term is where we need to focus at the moment. I *do* think we can persuade people that they need cryptography to protect themselves against criminals, and that the governments proposed standards for key length limits and key escrow will make the crypto so weak and insecure that it will cause more crime than it will prevent. That's a critical point - that the individual can, without difficulty, use cryptography to protect him or herself against criminals more effectively than he could by relying on the state. The memes we want to propagate are 1. "I need strong unescrowed cryptography to protect myself against criminals." If we can convince a large portion of the population of this (and we have truth on our side), we'll be well on our way. 2. "The government's initiatives on encryption, while they may be well-intentioned, are worse than useless, and will endanger me and my loved ones." If we can get this through the public's collective head as well, we'll have won the battle. This goal is where the 'cypherpunk considered harmful' title comes from. I want to propagate these ideas. If I go up to an average person and tell them "The State is working to ensure that it can spy on your every communication, and can't be trusted to follow it's own rules for doing so. Use cryptography to help promote cryptoanarchy!", he will usually dismiss me as a nutcase. If I say "Criminals and hackers can tap your internet communications, defraud your cell phone account, eavesdrop on your calls, impersonate you, steal your credit card numbers, and spy on your business secrets. I can tell you how you can easily prevent this", then he is interested, and wants to know more. Terms like 'cypherpunk' and 'cryptoanarchy' tend to pigeonhole us as nutcases for many people, and are a barrier to getting our ideas across. I'm not saying this pigeonholing is correct - in fact I despise people who judge a book by it's cover, but so many people DO make such snap judgements that we need to take this into account when talking to the general public. For those who have responded, *I* do not have a problem with the term cypherpunk. However, I know that there are many people who do, people we want on our side. I propose that in communicating with the cryptographic laity, we should be emphasizing the anti-crime aspects of crypto, as well as it's enabling impact on commerce and the American software industry. We'll get a lot more converts with this approach than we would by emphasizing the political aspects of cypherpunk, no matter how important we think they are. Think about it. Which future would you rather see: 1. Lots of people demanding strong unescrowed crypto for what you consider rather peripheral and politically unaware reasons, which you have educated them in. 2. Unescrowed crypto banned, with those who promote considered aiders and abeters of the four horsemen, (but boy are they ideologically pure!). Peter Trei I probably won't see any responses till Monday. I'm going for a weekend at a resort on Lake Winnipesaukee. If you need me, I'll be in the hot tub. :-) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMFmmK1QxhKXe9s8VAQE+tgP+NcKdGvBeJpa8AHGr/RhKCHudZP2qmRNP J699UCCvN006ywIjurjuis48VPj26uxBkcRbeuzNxGlKmZqXIkS0vEcFjrrZhBsK V9dLFFGTZ6JG3nK++mleW1wQB/F0azXXvXKJWa6R+Tnj1oo2ADUxGNQMs9IVmgR3 zsyK3fej+IQ= =YqDH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Peter Trei Senior Software Engineer Purveyor Development Team Process Software Corporation http://www.process.com trei(a)process.com

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"alt.cypherpunks" Newsgroup vs. Mailing List?
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Should there be an "alt.cypherpunks" type of newsgroup instead of this mailing list? (Or, to use my punchline at the end: Let the market decide.) At 10:26 AM 9/16/95, aba(a)atlas.ex.ac.uk wrote: >One thing I have been thinking would be nice would be a USENET >newsgroup, as mailing lists are a step away from easy access which >some people never make. It makes it less easy to browse and see what >it's about, interacting with majordomo software might seem very >intuitive to most members, but not all will be so comfortable signing >up their mailbox (which they possibly pay for per K), and may indeed >lack the expertise required to do the job. There are serveral >archives of cpunks, but these don't tend to be as well known as >newsgroups. More people might come across cypherpunks ideas, and the >technology for remailers, disk encryptors, discussions of nym servers, >steganorgraphy, IPSEC, etc if they were in a newsgroup, perhaps even >within the comp, soc, or sci hierarchies. It would be easy to create "alt.cypherpunks." I've been expecting to see it happen for the last 3 years. It could still happen. In fact, there's been talk of doing it (sorry for the passive "there has been talk," but I'll let the folks talking about doing it do the talking about it here). "Alt" groups are easy to create. (Newcomers to the list might like to know that one of our founding memmbers, John Gilmore, created the "alt.*" option some years back, with "alt.drugs" I think it was.) However, how many _newsgroups_ do any of you know of that have anywhere near the sense of cohesion and "community" that our mailing list has? Newsgroups encourage wider exposure to ideas, but also make "hit-and-run" disruptions more likely. The speed bump of having to figure out how to subscribe to a mailing list, and the expectation that one will remain "in the community" for a while, moderates flamish behavior and encourages people to try to learn. Newsgroups encourage very wide browsing, which has some advantages. But also a lack of persistent contributors and a lack of community. Mailing lists _tend_ to have much tighter feedback loops, where most messages are read by most members, or at least are glanced at. Newsgroups have a different character, and topics get repeated even more often. Interestingly, several crypto folks I know have said they have stopped seriously using the "sci.crypt" and "talk.politics.crypto" newsgroups and are concentrating on smaller mailing lists of co-workers and committee members(task forces, working groups, etc.). In some sense, the Cypherpunks list is somewhere in-between a full newsgroup and a small working mailing list. I could go on, but I ask instead that readers do their own investigation. First, are there any newsgroups out there that have the atmosphere we have? (I'm not saying there aren't any, and finding some examples to look at might be instructive...) Second, would the benefits of wider exposure, as "alt.cypherpunks," more than balance out the negative effects mentioned above? Third, is "news reading" software really that much better than "mail reading" software? For me, for example, I use Eudora Pro and can filter all messages by words in the thread name, by author, by mailing list name, etc. And _saving_ messages is the default, unlike newsgroups, where I must explicitly save an article to a file. So, for me, I have a very large "Cypherpunks archives," whereas I don't have a large "talk.polititics.crypto" archive (partly because of the lack of community there....). This brings up a final point, with more than 10,000 newsgroups, including nearly a dozen devoted to crypto, PGP, security, and anonymity, aren't there already enough? A likely effect of "alt.cypherpunks" is this: Subject: Re: ITARs Worked for Less than One Day Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 00:18:38 GMT From: david(a)sternlight.com (David Sternlight) Organization: DSI/USCRPAC Newsgroups: sci.crypt, alt.security.pgp, talk.politics.crypto, alt.cypherpunks That is, "alt.cypherpunks" just gets added to the cc: list of a lot of posts. But, if anyone wants it, create it. Then people can vote with their feet. Both the list and the newsgroup can co-exist, and if the newsgroup "wins," the list can be dropped. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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[Howard Winter: PGP 2.6 available on magazine cover]
by nobody＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An interesting comentary on the effectiveness of ITAR... Zeke - ------- Forwarded Message Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,connect.audit From: hdrw(a)ibmpcug.co.uk (Howard Winter) Subject: PGP 2.6 available on magazine cover X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this article are those of the author alone and may not represent the views of the IBM PC User Group. Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 23:22:23 GMT Message-ID: <CuwrLD.M6v(a)ibmpcug.co.uk> In case anyone's interested, the magazine PC Answers (issue 7, Sept 94) here in England has a copy of PGP 2.6 on a cover disk, along with the Windows front end: PGP WinFront from Ross Barclay. This appears to be the 'plain' version, no suffix. If it wasn't supposed to be exported from the USA, it's leaked in a big way! According to the RSA and MIT licences included, it's available for any non-commercial use. Looks like I'll start using PGP in earnest. Has anyone any advice on how to get my public key 'trusted', since I don't know anyone else who already has a trusted key? Similarly, how do I know when to trust keys I receive, given that I have no keys yet that I 'trust'? Cheers, - -- Howard Winter hdrw(a)ibmpcug.Co.UK CIS: 100111,1420 0W21' 51N43' - ------- End of Forwarded Message -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLlrM2xVg/9j67wWxAQGA9AP/fEruPVpNMdjP0SV54o7uD5YqJXplXsjE JZpCBQ/2EJn3ZQfvf0Ow3aSfSX1QyoDKCIeKj6Tj55pz96wFOUXa4REByNLimN/V Ob7MIql9fGcM8vC2iG0PZhtbii8iNr+Wk9QBSIMx26EDUrqR36gz/e5nqrf3tlxw 9FRwNj7PgSw= =EKt9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Explaining Zero Knowledge to your children
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:10 AM 9/15/95, hallam(a)w3.org wrote: >The cave analogy sucks. > >The way I tried to explain Zero Knowledge is this: > > >Imagine that you have a duplicator device which you want to sell, you don't >want to explain why it works to the buyer however since then they would >just make their own (patents have been abolished by this time). You also don't >want the buyer to be able to prove to anyone else that you have a duplicator. > >So what you do is you play the "what hand is it in game" and you do this >with a >10$ bill provided by the buyer and who records its serial number. You hold the >original article in one hand and the duplicate in the other. The buyer choses >one hand, you show the article in that hand. The buyer knows you had a 50:50 >chance of a lucky guess so you do it again, each time the probability of >getting >it right by a lucky guess halves. After 10 tries or so it is virtually certain >that you were not faking. > > >Any better ideas... Clever, but I think it's missing an important element of zero knowledge interactive proof systems. For example, why not simply open _both_ hands? By opening both hands one shows immediately that one has a duplicator, but does not show how the duplicator works. The same results are obtained with perfect certainty in _one_ round that the ZKIPS approach takes N rounds (as N gets large). Granted, this fails the " don't want the buyer to be able to prove to anyone else that you have a duplicator" test, but I don't think that is central to ZKIPS. I think a more important test is "don't show others how to make matter duplicators." Matter duplicators are "self-demonstrating" without revealing how they work, so they don't fit the model of (or create a need for) software-based ZKIPS. For example, in the Hamiltonian cycle example, the Prover demonstrates to the Skeptic either the set of nodes, with the nodes labelled, or a Hamiltonian cycle, with the nodes unlabelled. If he shows _both_ the set of nodes _and_ a Hamiltonian cycle, then he's given the Skeptic the whole shebang. In Phill's example, he's just taught the Skeptic "how to make a matter duplicator." But I applaud the creation of new and simpler examples, and maybe I'm wrong and Phill's example captures the essence of zero knowledge interactive proofs. I'll think about it some more. Comments? --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Arnold Bowker and John Joslin vs. Privacy
by hroller Mixmaster 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Case Could End Anonymity of Computer Network Users" by Brian Bergstein (Associated Press) Anonymity and freedom of speech in cyberspace are being challenged by a Caribbean resort owner in a court case that could dramatically restrict the rights of computer network users. The resort owner and scuba instructor claim that they were defamed on a computer bulletin board by an anonymous user, and they asked a judge this week to force America Online to reveal the name of the subscriber so they can sue the person for libel. If Arnold Bowker and John Joslin are successful in obtaining the name, it could have serious implications for millions of people who use the Internet to think, write and debate in a world where they are identified by their ideas, not their names. Technology experts fear a morass of court cases that would hold computer users accountable for what they say anonymously. "What this case brings up is the specter of millions of libel suits every time there's a disagreement on the Internet," said Daniel Weitzner of the Center for Democracy and Technology in Washington. "I think it's a critical issue." Several calls seeking comment from officials at America Online were not immediately returned Friday. Abraham Haddad, chairman of the computer science department at Northwestern University, said the anonymity of cyberspace should be maintained as long as it was not being used to commit a crime. "There's really a need to protect people's privacy as long as no laws have been broken," Haddad said.

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Anon Mail Sources of Remailers Keys
by nobody＠kaiwan.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Can someone post again the source for the various cypherpunks remailers public keys? I assume they are all in one file somewhere (likely on berkeley.edu) thats ftp'able.

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alt.cypherpunks
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi all, My vote is to let the folks on usenet sink in their own quagmire of ignorance about what we do. This list is no secret. If somebody wants to get into the 'game' let them bloody well subscribe. Ta ta. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com

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Re: (Noise) X-Files anarchist
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:56 PM 9/16/95, Dar Scott wrote: >I hardly watch TV ...blah, blah..., but I saw X-files last night. A very >minor character was a cryptohacker who--to his surprise--brute-forced a >military key for some files. He was described as an anarchist. > >To _my_ surprise, this anarchist was not associated with violence or >lunatic ravings. He was shown as reading a book entitled something like >Survey of Modern Conspiracy Theories. I see this as an improvement in the >stereotype of computer-associated anarchists. And this I see as a good >thing, since I think there is a lot that could be learned from anarchists. Vince Foster was technical advisor to "The X-Files." The NSA had him killed at Fort Darcy because he was getting too close to the Bilderbergers and their control of the secret UFO technology first given to the Nazis and then transferred to Winnemucca, Nevada as part of Operation Paperclip. The pilot who flew Bush in an SR-71 to negotiate with the Iranians to delay the release of the hostages and so defeat Carter in 1980 is also the author of "Nomenclature of a Conspiracy Cabal," one of the books shown in that episode. President Clinton, at the Underground White House near Edwards Air Force Base, OKed the hit on Foster, even though "The X-Files" was one of his favorite shows. The Greys must be appeased. --Klaus! von Future Prime, who actually has several dozen books on these and similar subjects

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Re: SPAM bait
by koontz＠MasPar.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

To: janet.dove(a)ledip.py Subject: Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 315+ Popular USA Tit

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