December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

NYC MEETING
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NYC area C'punks, For those of you considering attending the meeting this Saturday, I forgot to mention two things. The Stantons have cats, and smoking is permitted in designated areas only (*outside* their apartment). You gotta problem with that? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by Amanda Walker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> In the main, corporations persuade and governments force. I don't see so much of a difference. There is very little difference in the nature and methods of governments vs. corporations. A government can usefully be viewed as a corporation engaged in the business of public services. It's simply a geographical monopoly, as are many public utilities. Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation

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NYT Libertarian News
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Good and bad news in today's NYT on a controversial new libertarian (I think) community. Here's the good news, or maybe bad, quote: Kamiah, Idaho -- Ever since Lewis and Clark sloshed their way through this valley 100 years ago, some people have viewed the Pacific Northwest as a refuge for the kind of behavior that might get a person run out of town in other parts of the country. . . . now comes retired Lieut. Col. James (Bo) Gritz, a Vietnam-era Green Beret and onetime Populist Party candidate for President, with what is likely to be the first community ever built around fear and hatred of the Federal Government. Mr. Gritz, who discovered Idaho during the Presidential campaign, says he is a patriot who has become disgusted with the "cesspool" of public schools, the "grip of the international bankers" on the nation's currency, and "an encroaching, ravenous, predator Government," which wants to disarm the citizenry and force people to carry health cards. . . . in an advertisement for his paramilitary programs, he says, "You will learn what weapon and ammunition type is best in times of grave peril; how to carry, draw, hold and efficiently engage multiple targets. It is this kind of language that has many people worried that their hamlet will become the next Waco. "The tyrants who ordered the assault on Waco should be tried and executed as traitors," Mr. Gritz wrote in a recent issue of his newsletter. . . . Mr. Gritz said, "I want a community where if the F.B.I. looks at us, they'll end up saying it's more trouble than it's worth." End quote. The bad news, or maybe good, is that the Times then goes on to ridicule Mr. Gritz and his cohorts. Anyone want this by e-mail? John

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Re: your mail
by nobody＠jpunix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Black Unicorn <unicorn(a)access.digex.net> wrote: > Anonymous scripsit > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > > That being said let it be known that I consider the following as a > > > "Cypherpunk victory." > > > > > > 1. Complete freedom of technology, particularly encryption technology, > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > regulated only by market forces. This implies the lack of import/export > > > restrictions, and a complete absence of projects designed to limit > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > technology, or to standardize it for nefarious ends like Clipper. > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > I think you overgeneralize. No limits on toxic waste incinerators, > >low-mileage automobiles, unsafe medical devices, genetically tampered food, > >or nuclear reactors? "Market forces" in such cases positively encourage > >dangerous technology (e.g. incinerators are superficially cheap) or are > >markedby their inability to distinguish the good from the crap (e.g. medical > >devices). > > It is you who have overgeneralized. No limits on technology certainly > does not mean allowing low tech and poor incinerators to continue operating. > The fact that low mileage cars still drive is a result of poor markets > than anything else (baring colletables). How would you argue that some > low mileage cars are the result of a no limitations on technology policy? A lack of mileage standards, which are regulations on technology, can be expected to result in technology that doesn't meet the standard. > Unsafe medical devices? I would say this is a problem with testing > technology, not a lack of limitation on technological advance. If medical devices are sold without ANY limitation, e.g. the requirement that they be safe and effective, the result is unsafe equipment. Improved testing technology isn't useful if there's no requirement to use it. And "the market" is composed of people who have neither the expertise to test the equipment before they consent to its use, nor (in the case of someone's who's bleeding or in labor) the time. > Genetically tampered food? Why is this dangerous? Have any evidence? > Most of the livestock/crops you eat today have been altered in one way > or another, be it selective breeding, low tech botanical splicing, or > genetic/hormonal therapy. You see this as a regression? In some cases, yes, I see problems in biotech. For example, hormones used in cattle in high doses are known to cause tumors in women in low doses. Whether people would choose to eat horemone-treated meat is debatable; I had thought that the right to make the choice was taken by cypherpunks as an article of faith. Without regulation on the technology, even an innocuous labeling requirement, the right to choose is taken away because consumers can't detect the difference between hormone-treated beef and organic beef. > You never make the distinction between regulation designed to promote and > regulation designed to deter technological advance. Technological advance is a means to an end. Regulations should properly be about insuring the public welfare. While we might reasonably disagree about what that welfare is, clearly technological anarchy doesn't promote it. > Market > forces are lathargic, sometimes they need a boost. I propose this boost > be accomplished with motivators like tax breaks, market assisters and > privatization. Either the market works or it doesn't. You can't decry all government regulation and then call for handouts to businessmen. > When Germany wanted to promote environmentally sound > packaging and manufacture, they started a program called Gruun Punkt (The > Green Point) They allow manufactures to place the green point sticker on > their products provided they meet XYZ specifications. Actually, I think this is a great way to proceed. ======================================================================= Crim Tideson Privacy is its own justification. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpKieKvOblMnt4MdAQH72wP+NiE1e/wGy5t2XZla3gRXLRRGpCFeEX5J YtcKLqbym/pV9XRLBuEGIETnrsmJoOrWN+PDlzW02HXRmiad+Wbf1jp/QjPwXkQm 0ysSrrTIkZMsjIlY5ffxzwR8LzQZMhAMliFmFjhE8rAz/fLAqY1N+kT7NLiPyP54 TPOVSSyEhKU= =1dU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by David K. Merriman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>"Be very afraid, the Flavor Savor(tm) tomatoes are going to kill us >all!" > Um, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes? :-) Dave Merriman - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Finger merriman(a)metronet.com for PGP/RIPEM public keys and fingerprints. Unencrypted Email may be ignored without notice to sender. PGP preferred. Remember: It is not enough to _obey_ Big Brother; you must also learn to *love* Big Brother.

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ANNOUNCE: SF Bay Area Physical Meeting 8 Oct 94
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: SF Bay Area Physical Cypherpunks Meeting When: Saturday, 8 Oct 94 12:00 noon - 6:00 p.m. Where: Silicon Graphics, Mt. View (directions below) (Provisional) Theme: Intellectual "Property" Mark Hosler of Negativland will be our (provisional) guest. He's told me he's planning on showing, but I've not been able to confirm with him in the last few days. For those of you who don't know what Negativland is, they're a music group who got into a fracas with Island Records and their own label SST over a recording Negativland did entitled "U2". Mark/Negativland have a new book coming out called _Fair Use_, which is a complete history of the whole affair with both commentary and a complete set of primary source documents. Our theme, therefore, will be intellectual property, information distribution, sampling, etc., with, of course, applications to cryptography. We will also, as always, welcome and expect topics and presentations from the attendees. If you've got something you want to present, you've got the time here. If you've got something you want to discuss, you can have the floor to lead a discussion of it. All are welcome, whether or not you've ever been to a cypherpunks meeting before or not. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- DIRECTIONS: Silicon Graphics, Inc. Building 5 (SGI Cafeteria) 2025 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA >From 101 take Shoreline East. This is towards Shoreline Amphitheatre. It's also "logical east", and points more north that east. (That is, it's east with respect to 101 North, which points west near the exit.) If you're coming in on 101 South, you'll cross over the bridge. Continue on Shoreline and go past a whole bunch of other SGI buildings. Turn right onto Steirlin Court at the big red metal sculpture. There will be even more SGI buildings surrounding you--take note of the building numbers. Go almost to the end of this street. Building 5 is on the right.

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IRC Encryption
by prig0011＠gold.tc.umn.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There was a thread a while back about encrypted conversations on channel #freedom on irc. I came across the software I believe they are using. Its a package called Circ, and it is available from archives of comp.sources.misc volume 38 issue 10. It is interesting in that it uses RSA for key exchange, and triple DES for the encryption. The Circ package includes an earlier implementation "socks" which is a stand alone encrypted irc client. I think this is what they use on #freedom. This is an interesting tool for a couple of reasons. irc can be as anonymous as you want to make it. There are ways of hiding what site you're coming from, your real username, you can change your nick often as you want, and it's got a high enough usage that you can lose yourself in a crowd. It supports background file transfers. You can create a channel and lock it to uninvited people. It is supported pretty much net-wide, if you can telnet, you can irc. Interesting stuff, and I'll be playing more with it in the near future. BTW: my nick is cryptical on irc. :)

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REMAIL: Chaos remailer statistics
by Chael Hall 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Chaos remailer statistics from 12:38am 08/24/94 through 11:59pm 10/05/94: Total Messages msgs per day Percent ------- ------- ------- To/From CA domain: 46 1.1 1.69 To/From COM domain: 818 19.2 30.00 To/From EDU domain: 2130 50.1 78.11 To/From GOV domain: 3 0.1 0.11 To/From ORG domain: 326 7.7 11.95 To/From US domain: 381 9.0 13.97 Forbidden (includes anXX(a)anon.penet.fi) 8 0.2 0.29 Total messages processed: 2727 64.1 Note that the percentages will not add up to 100% because anything that crosses over, for example, the EDU to ORG line will show up in both categories. Average messages per month would be in the area of 1923. If you find this useful, let me know. I will put it into a script and have it auto-posted... Maybe. Chael -- Chael Hall, nowhere(a)chaos.bsu.edu

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Re: He's dead Jim (Chomsky)
by nobody＠cass156.ucsd.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

First and foremost I would like to publicly apologize to Mr. James A. Donald... re-reading my intial post to this thread, I feel that I was out of line in some places. As is the current topic of the MEME thread, I would like to stress that one should attack the message and *not* the messenger. Mr. Donald (*not* McDonald) is neither a fascist, nor Hitler, nor anything else than however he chooses to define himself. His views, however, *are* open to interpretation. As it stands, I respect Mr. Donald's views (and for the most part, I agree with him...on other things ;) ). The second and last point I would like to make is that quotes to *back up* an argument are more than helpful, and would save much bandwidth. If Mr. Donald would like to continue his part in this thread, either publicly or privately, I am more than willing to discuss Chomsky (or anything for that matter), as long as I have something tangible to discuss. The same applies to anyone else who wishes to discuss Chomsky.... Like many of us, I get over 500 pieces of email a day--and I try to read every bit of it; I think one piece of footnoted or otherwise appended email is worth 20 pieces of the Hitler-calling type. Mi taku oyasin... _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ It's dangerous to be right _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ when the government is _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ wrong. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ --Voltaire _/

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Re: crypto game idea
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim McCoy writes: > > Jim Miller writes: > > > > Crypto-Magic: The Gathering > [making an online version of the game using crypto tools...] > > > > Don't worry, someone is already working on it... :) > I'd be very impressed if you guys pulled this off. Not to imply I think it can't be done, just that it would be a pretty complex system and success would be impressive. Can you describe a little of how you're handling the cards? How do you keep players from forging cards? How does a player transfer ownership of a card to another player? What's your mechanism for preventing "double-trading"? Are card trades anonymous, or fully identified? How do you keep somebody from drawing an individual card from their deck more than once? How do you prevent somebody from stacking their deck, without revealing the contents of the deck? Does the software evaluate the effects of the cards (encapsulating the rules of the game), or does the software just provide the tools for handling digital trading cards? Cool stuff. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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