December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Black Cryptoanarchy (KKK, monopolies, contract killing)
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:36 PM 9/9/94 -0700, Doug Cutrell wrote: >I am trying to understand the arguments for these points of view... I >consider myself to be extremely "liberal" in my political philosophy, and I >have a lot of respect for the arguments of libertarians. But I am >continually pulled back to the "test case" issue of racist employment >practices. This is the case where the argument is most difficult for me to >buy. Cypherpunks is becoming "horrors" libernet. The only legitimate hook for this issue is the fact that many would oppose crypto anarchy (if they knew it existed) because it makes things like anti-discrimination laws possible. To avoid too much damage to the list, I will try and restrain myself to two observations on the subject of laws against racial discrimination (which libertarians do oppose): 1) Laws are enforced by threat of (or by actual) violence. Supporters of outlawing racial discrimination are in the position of arguing that non-violent social disagreements (the decision by someone not to deal with someone else on *bad* grounds) should be "solved" by sending armed men out to punish the person deciding to refuse to hire -- say -- whites. And of course to kill him if he resists his punishment. I would rather see deadly force limited to situations in which there has at least been a breach of the peace of some kind. 2) I have never met a person (and don't believe that there ever has been a person) who has not discriminated on all of the "prohibited" bases frequently. Has there ever been anyone who selected -- say -- their friends and lovers *purely* using random selection. Never discriminating on the basis of race, creed, color, sex, age, alienage, previous condition of servitude, marital status, sexual or affectional preference, handicap, etc. It would be hard to imagine someone who didn't use these prohibited classifications in their personal sexual lives. I observe little use of RNGs (see -- a cypherpunks technical reference after all) in social intercourse. Since it is legal (and indeed considered OK) to discriminate on all these grounds in our personal lives, libertarians believe that discrimination should at least be legal. Freedom of Choice in *everything*. DCF ************************************************************************* ATMs, Contracting Out, Digital Switching, Downsizing, EDI, Fax, Fedex, Home Workers, Internet, Just In Time, Leasing, Mail Receiving, Phone Cards, Quants, Securitization, Temping, Voice Mail.

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CONTROL FREAKS
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Where do I begin? Jim Choate has now retreated into subjectivism rather than Come on, Jim, you've been arguing that totalitarians can ignore economics. Answer my questions. How long did the "Thousand Year Reich" last? What totalitarian states can you name that have had any legs at all? There are none. I take it you don't take the comparison between the Roman circuses where prisoners and other misfits (ie Christians) were fed to the lions and and the Tutonic cirucses of the 30's and 40's (ie prison or relocation camps) where the criminal and other misfits (ie Jewish) were fed to the masochistic 'system' as comparable? The Warsaw Ghetto was not a form of 'circus' then? No, of course not. The Roman circuses were public spectacles. They were a form of entertainment (like professional sports today). Their propose was to distract the populace, not to eliminate enemies of the state. That's what Crucifixion and other types of execution were for. Often, the participants were pros, free men who did it for gold and glory. Hell, Rome wasn't even a totalitarian state. Where do you get these ideas? The Nazis were another matter, but they still didn't make the cut. Show me your successful totalitarian states. 'They' are the persons with money and influence and have also made it in their best interest to sustain the status quo. Just take a look at the Federal Reserve and how they manage the money in this country. Take a look at the special interest political groups who make it their job to get law-makers to look at it 'their' way. I've looked. I repeat, who are "they"? You know, like some names. They can't be too powerful, since social/cultural/legal non-compliance is a growth industry. God, what the hell are you so afraid of? Just exactly whose reality are we talking about ruling here?... people do not analyze their choices the same way you analyze some physical problem like building a bridge.... But that's the point. Economics *is* like building a bridge. You can't spend money you don't have. You can't create wealth by printing money. There are rules, and no amount of subjectivism or Roadrunner logic will exempt totalitarian states from them. But if you disagree, please prove me wrong by naming the states that have "created their own reality." I bet you can't. When I alluded that "they" weren't spending *my* money you wrote: I can assure you that the folks out there will spend their money if it is clear that they will make more of it in the long run. While it is true that public monies are the easiest to spend because of its anonymity it is not the only resource that is there. Consider under-the-table bribes and such. I give up, I don't have a clue what you're taking about. Do you? If so, please elucidate. Apparently, my comment about *structuring your life* so that you could ignore the control freaks went right over your head at the speed of light. FLAME ALERT: All Cypherpunks who disdain flamish exchanges should tune out now. I'm feeling peevish today and this sort of mindless drivel pisses me off. I have decided, therefore, to amuse myself by fucking with Mr. Choate's head for the remainder of this post. I am afraid [we know that, the question is why you are afraid?] that if you ignore a control freak you build the perfect environ [I'm sure you don't mean "environ," a verb. Perhaps "environment" or "environs" would be more suitable. Sloppy thinking; sloppy language.] for their growth. We are not talking about roses [now you've gotten SOMETHING right] here but rather ideas, a decidedly different animal. [Neither roses nor ideas are animals, Mr. Choate. Can you say mixed metaphor?] Ideas can grow long after the original thinker is gone. [Yes, but what has that got to do with our discussion. Focus, Mr. Choate.] To ignore rather than [to?] confront and expose [them?] is the best way possible [possible is redundundundant, Mr. Choate] to get what you don't want. [Interesting use of the negative in your sentence construction, but you never addressed my thesis, to wit: it is possible to structure your life so that you can ignore would-be controllers. There is no substitute for critical thinking, Mr. Choate.] Love and kisses, S a n d y "Who promises to go back on his medication tomorrow." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Title VII v. Liberty
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 1:40 PM 9/9/94, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >Actually, as I recall these have mostly been marketing studies. For >whatever reason (perhaps the same "oppressed group syndrome" that >tends to make several other minorities work harder) gay men tend to be >higher up on the income scale. No, I can't find a reference in a >second -- but if you insist I'll dig one up. Those knowing my opinions If you happen across one, I'd like to see it, but don't go out of your way >closely enough will know that I loathe fundamentalist christians and >that I'm quite rabbid in attacking discrimination against homosexuals. I have at least a rough sketch of your political views in mind, Perry. I wasn't trying to attack you - I was trying to correct something that is a very common misconception. Just happens to be on a rather charged topic. Assuming it was a marketing survey, this makes a lot more sense. They are going to look places where people selling things have a good chance to sell, which tends not to be the blue collar sections (where due to violence and educational differences, people are also much more likely to be closeted, and results are skewed anyway) Also note that income brackets are, to my experience, extremely variant among gays depending on location, race and (here's the biggest, it seems) sex. >Let me note that Jews and Asians are not protected groups under Title >10 -- there are no affirmative action laws for us, and there *is* >discrimination against them -- sometimes even very violent >discrimination. Somehow, however, they have managed to do just fine in >society. Although I believe this is an apples/oranges situation on a number of grounds (no comments on discussing fruit, please :), I see your point. I still strongly disagree that such legislation isn't nessessary, but that's neither here nor there... >Perry -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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Proposal for an Electronic Commerce Testbed
by Bob Smart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As Tony Rutkowski said recently in Tokyo, the Internet works best when things come from the bottom up. Things that require a lot of sophisticated infrastructure before you can even get started are hard to get off the ground. This tends to be a problem with all security technology and particularly with proposals for electronic commerce. We need a testbed where we can play with the various proposals without having the dangers associated with using real money in an experimental environment. On the other hand we need a large number of people using the experimental software because scalability and usability are two key criteria. This document will describe: 1. The technical requirements for such a testbed. 2. The social engineering necessary to get a large number of Internet users participating in the testbed. Testbed Structure ----------------- Initially there would be only one bank. Multiple banks and inter-bank issues would be brought in later. Protocols should be designed to allow for multiple banks. The intention would be to implement (and thus compare) multiple forms of electronic money: everything from open electronic cheques (and other EDI) to sophisticated double-blinded digital cash schemes. All source for software used in the testbed is openly available. It is not necessarily available for reuse - all that is required for the testbed's purposes is to ensure that there is no security-through- obscurity. The system must support multiple currencies in simultaneous use. The only requirement for a currency is that the mechanism for creating new money is defined and does not allow people to get an arbitrarily large amount of money. [E.g. if it is done by allowing registered people to receive an "income" then people shouldn't be able to register multiple times in different guises without sustaining a real cost for doing so.] I discuss some ideas for how to do this later. A currency market should be set up at an early stage, if only as a fun application. People are encouraged (preferably by real physical prizes) to try to break the electronic commerce protocols. To facilitate this all communication for the system goes through "virtual" paths which are are on one or more computers. People who register as attackers can take over one or more virtual links and can delete/insert/change packets on those links. Denial of service attacks are not allowed. Nor (obviously) are attacks that don't use the officially sanctioned attack points. While the last sentence seems obvious it needs to be made strongly so we don't get people claiming in court "I broke into their machine because they wanted people to try to break their system". Finally, and this is perhaps the hardest part, we need applications which use the electronic commerce protocols and which a lot of people will want to use. This is hard with only "play" money, but I have a few ideas below. The protocols and the applications will not be tied to particular currencies. Particular servers and users will only accept particular currencies. This might be partly handled by having a currency market but ultimately some currencies may have real value while others don't, and the problem of acquiring the currencies with real value will be no different to our experience of real life. Possible Detail: Creation of Money ---------------------------------- The Internet Society might issue "Internet Dollar" play money to all its (financial) members who are interested, at some steady rate. Then organizations wishing to support the Internet Society while participating in the testbed might provide some services (e.g. by www) and charge with Internet$s. This would encourage people to join the Internet Society to use those services. It will also allow people to provide services which they would provide free except for a fear that they would be overused and thus affect the organizations network link - the play money charge limits possible use. A charity (or group of charities) could provide play money to people making donations. For example a donation of $100 to charity X might get you 100 X$s. Then organizations wishing to support charity X can provide services which are charged for in X$s. All the people involved in these experiments need to be aware that the software is experimental and that people are encouraged to break the protocols and "steal" the play money. So they shouldn't use it for anything serious. However when things stabilize and become trusted it is possible to imagine slightly more serious uses before we get to pure commercial applications. Network providers could experiment with charging algorithms. For example AARNet could issue AARNet units to its customers in proportion to their bill. A certain amount, say 40%, of the international link could be reserved for priority traffic. Users wanting a share of that priority component of the link would participate in an auction that is run every 30 minutes using AARnet units as currency. Possible Detail: Competitions and Gambling ------------------------------------------ I've speculated above on the possibility of people supporting the testbed by providing some useful services while charging play money. We shouldn't depend on that. There is a class of applications which are fun but need (or at least are helped by) money to give the measure of success or failure. These are games, competitions and gambling. I believe that done right they can be sufficiently interesting with play money that people will want to take part: enough people to test the scalability of the various proposals. Some of the games that can be played between individuals on the Internet really need the ability to have a bet to make play really meaningful: poker and backgammon are examples. The question is: will betting with "play" money work or will people play frivolously because the money does not have real value? The key here is that the currency used is reasonably hard to obtain. If you play badly and lose your money you can't play. If you win and get a lot of money you can move into the higher stake games where, presumably, the better and thus more interesting opponents play. I think it could work quite well. Beyond that we can produce a lot of gambling games which we know interest a lot of people and perhaps if they played with play money on the Internet their kids would eat better: casino games, lotteries, numbers games, bingo, poker machines, betting on events like horse races. I have some ideas in this area that can only be done on a computer network. Possible Detail: Getting Things Done ------------------------------------ I think the best way to move this forward would be through the IETF. There would be an ect working group. The rules for taking part in the testbed would be published as informational or experimental RFCs. We would need machines to run the Internet Experimental Bank and the attacker-accessible virtual links. I imagine that many organizations would be keen for the cachet of providing these services provided that the banks protocols didn't require human intervention. I imagine that account numbers will be PGP public keys. Subscribers claiming to be financial members of the Internet Society will receive an initial allocation and steady income of Internet-dollars. Other currencies will be created as required. The particular electronic commerce protocols experimented with may require additional infrastructure. For example accounts can be associated with other keys, for the use with protocols which don't use RSA, by means of appropriate PGP-signed documents. Clearly there is a lot of coding to be done, from hack to cryptographic. I think if we got the support of the IETF then we'd get support from individuals and organizations. The fact that it would add a certain respectability to playing games over the Internet would also help to attract some young and talented contributors. Interest? --------- Without endorsing the particular details above, if you think an Electronic Commerce Testbed is possible and that you would be prepared to contribute to an IETF WG on the subject then let me know. With sufficient interest I will propose the idea to Jeff Schiller (IETF Security Area Director). Bob Smart

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Re: Black Cryptoanarchy (KKK, monopolies, contract killing)
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Looks like someone was listening to the discussion of fake mail that took place here earlier... Hint to the sender of this - think about how to get rid of the underscored line. After that, think *content*. At 2:01 PM 9/9/94, kkk(a)asc.bu.edu wrote: >Return-Path: <owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com> [deletia] >Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:01:12 -0400 >From: kkk(a)asc.bu.edu >Message-Id: <199409092101.RAA14180(a)BU.EDU> >Subject: Black Cryptoanarchy (KKK, monopolies, contract killing) >Apparently-To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com >Precedence: bulk >Content-Length: 1876 -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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RE: E.C.T.
by David K. Merriman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The ECT proposal sounds pretty good, and I'd like to toss in my nickle's worth.... What to do about the non-Unix (and Unix variants) world? Granted that the majority of the net is "unix" based, there are still a *lot* of folks that run MSDOS, Windows, Amigas, Ataris, and god-knows-what-else. If they can't 'play', that would seem to put a semi-serious limitation on the testbed. What hooks are going to be available to let the other kids play? (I count myself in there - I run Windows) There was recently a not-so-brief thread about what to call the electronic "cash" - why not just go with that old Sci-Fi standby of "credits" (abbreviated C| ? Or the copyright symbol?)? It's not specific to any country/currency, and fairly accurately describes the nature of the medium. Are the creditbanks going to be available on a 24-hour basis, with the attendant load/reliability questions? If not, what to do about overdrafts, or refusals-of-service because a creditbank is 'down'? How to deal with getting account balances (if appropriate)? Do we handle the transactions as cash (each "bill" serial numbered and sealed)) or checks (available in virtually any "denomination" - with the related check-based concerns)? If it's going to be in "denominational" form, how are these "bills" going to be identified? This is related to the unix/MSDOS/Atari/Amiga/??? question - discrete monetary denominations should at least have filenames that are usable by all participants (regrettably, that means the MSDOS limitation of 8.3 - *sigh*). If checks, what format do they take (I'll assume they'll still meet the minimum filename limitations of MSDOS)? How are the credits actually transferred (ie, how would I send C|35 to Tim May :-) - attachment, inclusion (uuencoded? MIME?), or ???? Would I be correct that these credits would only be available in integer units? Please understand - I'm not trying to throw cold water on the idea, or pretend I'm playing "devil's advocate", or anything of the sort. I like the idea of implementing a testbed for e-money, and would like to contribute whatever I can: I've followed the e-money discussions as theory, but my 'real world' job is as an engineering tech - the one who tries to get from the design/theory stage to real implementation. You "engineers" get to work out the gory details of what's the best "design"; us "technicians" have to work out the details of how to implement your designs - and provide feedback when something doesn't "look right", or ask questions when there's a _perceived_ problem with the implementation. The design/implementation process generally works best when the engineer can tell the technician what he's trying to do, and the technician gets to provide feedback by asking dumb questions about why and how and what-happens-if :-) Finally, I think it would be better if the foundation for the ECT were in place before trying to spread the gospel, so to speak. I know that's kind of obvious, but if we had the creditbanks in place, the creditnotes or creditchecks available, and the tools (MS-Windows CreditWriter? Atari CreditPurse?) to allow unix/DOS/Atari/Amiga users to actually use the system, more folks would be willing to at least give it a *try*. It's the old bird-in-the-hand vs two-in-the-bush deal....... One thing did occur to me after reading the ECT proposal: it would seem to be ideal for mailing lists and moderated newsgroups. Someone wanting to post an article/message pays (say) C|10 for the privelege; if others like it, they send the author C|1. Flamers don't make much (if any) money, and good stuff increases wealth. Leaves folks free to write whatever they want, but not for free (translation: you've *really* got to want to say it before you'll pay for it). Kinda brings new meaning to the phrase "putting in my .02 worth" :-) Dave Merriman - Playing "Straight Man" to the Cypherpunks Comedy Troupe :-) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Finger merriman(a)metronet.com for PGP/RIPEM public keys and fingerprints. Unencrypted Email may be ignored without notice to sender. PGP preferred. Remember: It is not enough to _obey_ Big Brother; you must also learn to *love* Big Brother.

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Black Cryptoanarchy (KKK, monopolies, contract killings)
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msg by doug(a)OpenMind.com (Doug Cutrell) on Fri, 9 Sep 12:36 PM: Your critique has elicited some of the best responses I've seen here. There is still, indeed, the task of proving that cryptoanarchy is not itself a play for power by those who write and master its cryptographic code. But better to test that in the public arena rather remain hidden and protected like the state secrecy of governmental cryptography. The state will probably fiercely oppose it, not least by stigmatizing cryptoanarchy and impugning its motives by exaggeration and distortion. (It is worth recalling that classical black anarchy, the secret, lethal version as distinguished from open black flag type, is used by despots to justify their ruthless measures. Black anarchists, as agents of despots, mingle with avowed flag-wavers to spy and provoke acts that lead to repressive crackdowns. Black anarchists never announce themselves as such but may freely admit to being "anarchistic" as a wild-eyed subterfuge. Inept provocations sometimes reveal them but the most able are never detected.) I may be helpful to read one writer's view of how cryptoanarchy may be lumped with and targeted like other stigmatized groups whose attributes it may claim: Quotes are from: "Stigma, Notes on the Management of Spoiled Identity", Erving Goffman, Simon and Schuster, 1963. pp. 143-45: DEVIATIONS AND DEVIANCE One such deviation is important here, the kind presented by individuals who are seen as declining voluntarily and openly to accept the social place accorded them, and who act irregularly and somewhat rebelliously in connection with our basic institutions -- the family, the age-grade system, the stereotyped role-division between the sexes, legitimate full-time employment involving maintenance of a single governmentally ratified personal identity, and segregation by class and race. These are the "disaffiliates." Those who take this stand on their own and by themselves might be called eccentrics or "characters." Those whose activity is collective and focused within some building or place (and often upon a special activity) may be called cultists. Those who come together into a sub-community or milieu may be called "social deviants", and their corporate life a deviant community. They constitute a special type, but only one type, of deviator. If there is to be a field of inquiry called "deviance," it is social deviants as here defined that would presumably constitute its core. Prostitutes, drug addicts, delinquents, criminals, jazz musicians, bohemians, gypsies, carnival workers, hobos, winos, show people, full time gamblers, beach dwellers, homosexuals, and the urban unrepentant poor -- these would be included. These are the folk who are considered to be engaged in some kind of collective denial of the social order. They are perceived as failing to use available opportunity for advancement in the various approved runways of society; they show open disrespect for their betters; they lack piety; they represent failures in the motivational schemes of society. Once the core of social deviancy is established, one can proceed to peripheral instances: community-based political radicals who not only vote in a divergent way but spend more time with those of their own kind than is politically necessary; the traveling rich who are not geared into the executive's work week, and spend their time drifting from one summering place to another; expatriates, employed or not, who routinely wander at least a few steps from the PX and the American Express; the ethnic assimilation backsliders who are reared in the two worlds of the parent society and the society of their parents, and resolutely turn away from the conventional routes of mobility open to them, overlaying their public school socialization with what many normals will see as a grotesque costume of religious orthodoxy; the metropolitan unmarried and merely married who disavail themselves of an opportunity to raise a family, and instead support a vague society that is in rebellion, albeit mild and short-lived, against the family system In almost all of these cases, some show of disaffiliation is made, as is also true of eccentrics and cultists, providing in this way a thin line that can be drawn between all of them and deviators on the other side, namely, the quietly disaffiliated--hobbyists who become so devoted to their avocation that only a husk remains for civil attachments, as in the case of some ardent stamp collectors, club tennis players, and sports car buffs. Social deviants, as defined, flaunt their refusal to accept their place and are temporarily tolerated in this gestural rebellion, providing it is restricted within the ecological boundaries of their community. Like ethnic and racial ghettos, these communities constitute a haven of self-defense and a place where the individual deviator can openly take the line that he is at least as good as anyone else. But in addition, social deviants often feel that they are not merely equal to but better than normals, and that the life they lead is better than that lived by the persons they would otherwise be. Social deviants also provide models of being for restless normals, obtaining not only sympathy but also recruits. (Cultists acquire converts too, of course, but the focus is on programs of action not styles of life.) The wise can become fellow-travelers. p. 25: STIGMA AND SOCIAL IDENTlTY Often those with a particular stigma sponsor a publication of some kind [list cypherpunks?] which gives voice to shared feelings, consolidating and stabilizing for the reader his sense of the realness of "his" group and his attachment to it. Here the ideology of the members is formulated -- their complaints, their aspirations, their politics. The names of well-known friends and enemies of the "group" are cited, along with information to confirm the goodness or the badness of these people. Success stories are printed, tales of heroes of assimilation who have penetrated new areas of normal acceptance. Atrocity tales are recorded, recent and historic, of extreme mistreatment by normals. Exemplary moral tales are provided in biographical and autobiographical form illustrating a desirable code of conduct for the stigmatized. The publication also serves as a forum for presenting some division of opinion as to how the situation of the stigmatized person ought best to be handled. Should the individual's failing require special equipment [crypto?], it is here advertised and reviewed. The readership of these publications provides a market for books and pamphlets which present a similar line. It is important to stress that, in America at least, no matter how small and how badly off a particular stigmatized category is, the viewpoint of its members is likely to be given public presentation of some kind. It can thus be said that Americans who are stigmatized tend to live in a literarily-defined world, however uncultured they might be. If they don't read books on the situation of persons like themselves, they at least read magazines and see movies; and where they don't do these, then they listen to local, vocal associates. An intellectually worked-up version of their point of view is thus available to most stigmatized persons End quotes

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Re: Title VII v. Liberty
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:30 PM 9/9/94, Joe Turner wrote: >I just get really frustrated when I hear about <insert group here> is being >discriminated against. More often then not its just used as a justification >for government funding, an excuse for a light prision sentence, or to gather >a few liberal votes at the polling place. I have never felt that whinning >about discrimination or making excuses will get you anywhere. Oh, Christ. -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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Lame security software
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In showing a co-worker why a lot of the cryptographic software out there is really bad to use, I found one of the worst examples I've ever run across, and I'm in a sharing mood today. For those Mac users out there, get ahold of Norton Partition, which ships with Norton Utilities 2.0. I was demoing the only way it should be counted on for anything, and then not much, by setting up a non-automounting DES encrypted soft partition. I chose the password 'cheesetoast', and explained why this was a bad choice, etc. Well, upon mounting the disk to demo something else, I misstyped 'cheeseto " (that last character is a space), and whad do you know, it mounted. I suspect it checks a hash of the first eight characters, tossing the rest, but don't have time to check and see if that is the case. Happy ending - My coworker then asked "What is that PGP think again?" -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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Copulating Camels and Digital Cash
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This week's Economist has one (or rather two) of the subject items on the cover and an article on the other inside. Also one on "Doing Business on the Net." DCF

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