December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: more deranged lunatic ravings -- just delete 'em!
by doug＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

erc(a)apple.com said: >Nope. That's not the point, and you know it. The point being (and I'm not >even sure why I'm bothering to explain this to you - you're intelligent) >this case has the potential to affect ALL of us, not just the participants >in the case. True. But the question is, specifically what are you suggesting "all of us" do right now? When I say specifically, I mean for instance not just "find out information about XYZ" like you said before, I mean the "and then what?" part as well. Most of us will probably do our best to learn whatever we can rather than ignoring the situation. But *then* what? What's your suggestion? >Well, scratching my crotch and looking important HAD crossed my mind. :) Besides that, I mean. :-) Doug

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What can we do in the next few days?
by tcmay＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lots of flames lately about "lunatic ravings" and what Cypherpunks can or can't do to help in the next few days. Here's my take on the situation: * Keep current, read all the various groups covering this. * Add articles and comments whenever you have something to say. Your argument might help one of the lawyers make his case. (One of "our" lawyers, one hopes.) Hal Finney's article this morning falls squarely into this category. We may have few lawyers amongst us, but we can contribute comments and background items that the lawyers may find useful. Not much time left before the grand jury convenes on Wednesday, but time to help after that. I agree of course with the sentiment that "Cypherpunks write code," or at least write text on semi-technical topics, and agree with the current focus of our group on stuff like remailers, digital cash, data havens, and the like. The EFF, CPSR, and ACLU are already focussed on issues of legal cases, privacy laws, etc., and are staffed with mostly lawyers and legal-background folks. We fill a niche they cannot fill. * Phil Karn and others have written about DES implementations that are already described, published, etc., both inside and outside the U.S. This may help with the precedent issue, namely, establishing that DES is already widely available (in case this is an important issue). In particular, see the messages a few days back about compiling a list of published DES (and IDEA, too) codings. Add to the list if you can. Cypherpunks can help on this, if they have some experience with DES, IDEA, and the like. Perhaps after the indictment (I'm guessing there'll be one) we can find out from the lawyers if our backgrounds in hacking and crypto can be tapped to help in the defense. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it.

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Cypherbusts, etc.
by Alan E. Mason 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I just heard about the grand jury BS going down around PGP, etc, via the EFF forum on the Well and would like to do whatever I can to support the defense effort (when it comes) etc. I am a writer with some small access to local media and a big interest in the outcome of this test of our 1st amendment rights. I would also like to get on your "mailing list" if you have one. Mail should be sent to vznquest(a)netcom.com Thanks, and keep up the good work! Alan Mason

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(fwd) New Intel Slogan
by erc＠wetware.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Path: khijol!wetware!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!pacbell.com!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!uunet.ca!wildcan!news2.uunet.ca!xenitec!looking!funny-request Message-ID: <S5d6.528(a)clarinet.com> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 19:30:02 EDT Newsgroups: rec.humor.funny Subject: New Intel Slogan From: shah(a)santur.nuo.dec.com (Amitabh Shah) Keywords: topical, smirk, original Approved: funny(a)clarinet.com Lines: 17 [This is original.] In view of the recent burglaries at computer warehouses in the Silicon Valley, where the burglars have stolen Intel's x86 processor chips, Intel has decided to use a new corporate slogan. The idea for this slogan is based on the theft-resistant stickers seen on the windows of cars in NYC. All stores carrying/manufacturing PCs made with Intel's processors, as well as the PCs themselves will now bear a sticker that says: "No Intel Inside". -- Selected by Maddi Hausmann. MAIL your joke (jokes ONLY) to funny(a)clarinet.com. Please! No copyrighted stuff. Also no "mouse balls," dyslexic agnostics, Iraqi driver's ed, Administratium, strings in bar or bell-ringer jokes. -- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc(a)apple.com 510/659-9560 anon-0001(a)khijol.uucp If you want magic, let go of your armor. Magic is so much stronger than steel! -- Richard Bach, "The Bridge Across Forever"

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re: more deranged lunatic ravings ...
by Tiffany Lee Brown 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The recent flood of rantmail between Perry Metzger, E. Carp, etc., started as an interesting and relevant argument but has degenerated to the point of annoyance. The former suggested calming down and writing some code - perhaps he could go off and do just that, rather than wasting his time (and ours) trying to keep folx from encouraging others to engage in personal investigation of an issue which concerns them. If you think writing code's the only thing to do - go do it. If you think getting people riled up about the situation is important - go do it. Yammering at each other ain't gonna make the world a safer and more private place. -magdalen

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Re: Definition of "Zero Knowledge" (fwd)
by frc%bwnmr4＠harvard.harvard.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From frc Sun Sep 19 20:22:47 1993 > Subject: Re: Definition of "Zero Knowledge" > To: erc(a)apple.com > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 93 20:22:47 EDT > In-Reply-To: <m0oeGCo-00021LC@khijol>; from "Ed Carp" at Sep 18, 93 9:16 pm > > Thanks for the definition (but I knew that, anyway). Sorru I wasn't clear - > > what I was looking for was examples of how zero-knowledge proof techniques > > could make source code impenetrable. > > Source would be nice, too... ;) > Check out a product called C-Shroud by ??Gimpel Software... > I think it does this.. or at least tries.... > FRC I meant to send this across the list, and not just to erc. Here's it is for everyone else. FRC

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Re: Definition of "Zero Knowledge"
by doug＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

bill(a)twwells.com (T. William Wells) said: >Got a good reference for ZPT? Something that the mathematically >inclined, who wants just the facts, all the facts, and none of >the BS that passes for explanations and which usually obscures >more than it clarifies? In the current context, the best reference that I know of is to the methodology of Goedel's Theorem rather than to ZPT; it has each of the properties that I mentioned except for the ZPT operations, which can be added in a conceptually straightforward way. The most readable in depth treatment of that that I know of is "Goedel's Proof" by Ernest Nagel and James R. Newman, c. 1958 and still in print as a cheap paperback. If someone has good ZPT references that would be interesting too; I've lost the stuff I used to have on that. Doug

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Cryptophone
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Where is the cryptophone project? I haven't seen anything about it for a while. Last I read, a company had a commercial triple-DES product with no public key - has anyone seen this? How is the sound quality? The cryptophone is the best way to drive a stake through the heart of Clipper. Suppose someone writes a crypto program and gives it to some friends. One of the friends uploads it to a BBS. Someone calls up from a foreign country and downloads it from the BBS. Who is at fault? The person who wrote it, for not retaining control over his product? The friend who uploaded it, for placing it where a foreigner could access it? The operator of the BBS, for not screening the file and preventing the foreigner from downloading it? Or the foreigner himself, who is probably out of range of U.S. law in any case? Suppose someone writes a crypto program and makes it generally available to anyone who wants it. It goes out of the country, but there is no way to know who sent it out of the country or how. Can they prosecute the person who wrote it for not maintaining control over it? If they can, this means, among other things, that selling the Norton Utilities to someone without checking to see that they are a citizen is illegal, and that having PKZIP on your BBS is illegal. If the precedent gets established that the person who writes such a program is responsible for keeping it out of the hands of foreigners, that would be a big problem. All crypto would have to be published anonymously, because nobody could risk signing their name to it. This must not happen! The flamewar going on here is counterproductive; they must be laughing down at the fort. --- MikeIngle(a)delphi.com

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Re: reporter seeking interview subjects
by remailer＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:35 AM 9/19/93 -0400, Stanton McCandlish wrote: >> > looking for interesting "case studies" that I can use to horrify >> > my listeners out of their complacency. My most immediate need is >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> Just what I love from the media, using sensationalism to convey a >> preconceived idea instead of looking at the facts and reporting it. >> Does it matter that he is reporting on our side and not the other >> side? > >Why of course it does. No wishing and praying will make the media suddely >become pure and holy. This is a propaganda war, and there's no reason >for both sides not to get in on the act. Otherwise, it's like fighting >guns with slingshots. No horror, no story. Who wants to hear a story about how they're perfectly safe letting the world look at their medical history? If that was true, no one would want to hear about it on the radio.

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Crypto crackdown - this i
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

F >Unless you are judgement proof. Since I have received 4 pieces of E-mail asking for a definition, I will beg the indulgance of the list... Being 'judgement proof' means that even if a civil judgement is obtained against you, it cannot be satisfied. It means that you have no attachable property. The property can be in the name of another person or entity or in another jurisdiction. It is a very relaxing feeling. In the mid '80s for example when Roy Cohn (of the Army-McCarthy Hearings) was dying of AIDS, he had outstanding judgments of almost $1.5 million against him from the IRS and private parties. Meanwhile, he lived in a brownstone on the upper east side of Manhattan, used a house in the Hamptons, and regularly flew Concorde to Europe. The judgements were never executed against him, however because he had no money. He was judgment proof. The houses and other perks were supplied to him by the law firm of which he was an obviously valuble employee. Judgement proofing yourself is a powerfull concept. Duncan Frissell Who has remained judgment proof for years by employing the oldest trick in the book -- transferring all of his assets to the brains of his children (via various educational institutions) where they are immune to siezure. --- WinQwk 2.0b#0

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Re: reporter seeking interview subjects
by stig＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In <93Sep17.230857pdt.14382-4(a)well.sf.ca.us>, Matt Binder wrote... > Hi, my name is Matt Binder. Please help me... > I'm a radio reporter in the SF Bay area working on a series > of pieces about invasions of privacy in the computer age. I'm > looking for interesting "case studies" that I can use to horrify > my listeners out of their complacency. I think it's really important that if you're looking to shock your audience that you also show a glimpse of not only the "light at the end of the tunnel" but also a glimpse of the reasons that people would be better off making a dash for the end of the tunnel than trying to run back to the tunnel's start. Otherwise, you're just fueling the anxieties of countless luddites and techonophobes. > My most immediate need is > to find someone whose medical records were used (perused!) I hardly speak for all of the cypherpunks, of course, but generally we work the "Big Brother" side of the street. There are others who are more on top of this sort of thing. Judyc@well might be a good resource for this sort of thing. Stig ;; __________________________________________________________________________ ;; Stig(a)netcom.com netcom.com:/pub/stig/00-PGP-KEY ;; It's hard to be cutting-edge at your own pace... 32 DF B9 19 AE 28 D1 7A ;; Bullet-proof code cannot stand up to teflon bugs. A3 9D 0B 1A 33 13 4D 7F

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Retry flyer
by jkhastings＠aol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I got some strange mail failure messages from my speech flyer. This attempt won't include any "cc:" to extropians. --------------------------------------------------- "State Evader" comes out of the Green Dragon Tavern BBS (213) 365-1132 pseudonym closet to shamelessly promote his upcoming speeches at the H.L. Mencken Forum and the Libertarian Party of CA Region 62 Los Angeles Westside: ------------------------------------------------------------ State Evader = J. Kent Hastings Assistant Director of the Agorist Institute, "Techtics" columnist for the Tactics of the Movement of the Libertarian Left newsletter, internet cypherpunk, and ham radio operator WA6ZFY. Both speeches will be on the topic: "Cyber Cash: Free Market Money Comes of Age" I will talk about untraceable digital cash, public-key cryptography, spread-spectrum radio, unmanned vehicles, and the latest government actions that threaten everyone's privacy: The Clipper/ Skipjack key escrow agents and the subpoenas served to the Austin Code Works and ViaCrypt for all PGP, RSA export info. -------------------------------------------------------------- Mencken info: (310) 289-3234 (reserve now!) L.P. info: (310) 477-6491 -------------------------- Mencken location: The Old Spaghetti Factory 5939 Sunset Blvd near Hollywood Freeway in L.A. Wednesday September 22, 1993 6:30 Libations, 7:00 Dinner, 8:00 Speaker, 10:00 Adjourn ment First time "virgins" reserved: $3 -------------------------------------------------- L.P. of CA Region 62 L.A. Westside: Chris's Italian Restaurant 10105 Venice Blvd. at Clarington Ave Thursday, September 23, 1993 Cocktails 6:30, Dinner 7:00, Talk 8:30 Not sure if admission is charged. ---------------------------------------------- Kent - <jkhastings(a)aol.com>

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Bidzos on ITAR
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to H. Finney's probing, sterling, and brilliant analysis of ITAR (which I was utterly embarrassed to see buried and sandwiched in sordid flames) J. Bidzos claims that ``The ITAR specifically exempts software from being considered public domain'' and points out that the PKP FTP site in question that H. refers to as `causing a big stink' was *non-anonymous*. I would like to see J. Bidzos' sci.crypt posting reposted here *ASAP* by some bored cypherpunk who would like to ``contribute''! Major cyberspace points await!

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Does this seem illegal?
by an15348＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

* Reply to msg originally in CYPHERPUNKS Uu> From: gg(a)well.sf.ca.us ("George A. Gleason") Uu> ...Thank you, operator. A warm bulge rises in your pants as Uu> you contemplate your next move. Boy are you going to teach her a Uu> lesson! Uu> This special moment brought to you by Sprint TeleMap. Wait. You've done this before, right? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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Re: Definition of "Zero Knowledge"
by doug＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

khijol!erc(a)apple.com (Ed Carp) said: >This reminds me of a science fiction story that I read once, published in >Analog: the smart-ass encrypted the solution of how to produce stable >antimatter, or cold fusion, or something similar, using Godel's Theorem. > >The politicos back on Earth said that it would take them 200 years to >factor the N-size number that was sent back to Earth. :) > >Now, if I could just remember the name of the story and the issue... "The Gold at the Starbow's End", Frederik Pohl, Ballantine Books, 1972. Serialized in Analog in '71 or 72. Great book! You're showing your age. ;-) ( Like I'm not...if anyone on the list wasn't born at that point, I don't wanna hear about it :-) I think this was the first place I ever heard of Go"del numbering. Doug

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Re: Does this seem illegal to you?
by doug＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

mgream(a)acacia.itd.uts.edu.au (Matthew Gream) said: >Although, it must be said that CDROM whitepages are available, and i'm >ignorant of what limitations have been built into them to stop people >(i.e. corporations) turning them into reverse directories. In the U.S., you can buy CD-ROM white pages for the entire US for $99, and the same database reverse-directoried for another $99. (Approximately; this is from memory from a magazine ad I saw 4 days ago.) Such things have been available on paper for a long time, but this media and these prices will doubtless have social repercussions. As before, people can make a point of having their address not listed in any such directory, forward or reverse, if they're careful enough. However, the need to do so probably increases as reverse indexing becomes so vastly more available. Doug

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Message to the net (fwd)
by Jeremy R. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This is a message a friend of mine wanted me to post on the 'Net. I figured the Cypherpunk list would be one of the best places to start. Jeremy Smith ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 20 Sep 93 02:02:13 EDT From: Ole Grunbaum, 75320,672 To: Jeremy Smith, >INTERNET:jersmit@eis.calstate.edu Date: , 22:47 Subject: I am a Danish journalist, stationed in the US, writing for a daily newspaper in Copenhagen, mostly about technology, but also gennerally about culture. I am particularly interested in the political and ethical questions that computers and networks pose, pa rticularly in regards to government and large corporations. I have covered a lot of hacker cases, and right now I am interested in the Kevin Poulsen, alias Dark Dante, case. I am looking for people who know Kevin. I can not understand why he has been 30 mo nths now in custody without a court case. If anyone can help me, and are willing to talk to me, please write to my compuserve account, 75320,672 or internet: ogrunba(a)eis.calstate.edu - my name is Ole Grunbaum, and my newspaper is Politiken.

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meaningless rumor
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From a high-level source in contact with an *extremely* high level source: Rumor: Moby Crypto was targeted because G. Ward intended to include PGP on distribution disks. The investigation is primarily PGP oriented, and G. Ward is just a bystander who got caught up. PRZ & PGP is the essential target. Notes (1) phrasing of the subpoenas definitely confirms this -- PGP is mentioned in both. (2) can we find any Usenet postings where G. Ward announced intent to distribute PGP with Moby Crypto to help confirm this? (3) Current Underground Digest just came out -- it (contrarily) hypes the Moby Crypto `attack' as foremost, and *mislabels* PRZ's comments as `reaction to Moby Crypto attack' -- in fact, there is no indication that he knew of Moby Crypto when he wrote those.

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Re: meaningless rumor
by smb＠research.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From a high-level source in contact with an *extremely* high level source: Rumor: Moby Crypto was targeted because G. Ward intended to include PGP on distribution disks. The investigation is primarily PGP oriented, and G. Ward is just a bystander who got caught up. PRZ & PGP is the essential target. Notes (1) phrasing of the subpoenas definitely confirms this -- PGP is mentioned in both. (2) can we find any Usenet postings where G. Ward announced intent to distribute PGP with Moby Crypto to help confirm this? Ward posted a note that (in essence) asked for help in evading the ITARs. (Well, I suppose it could have been someone forging a posting...). He went so far as to offer to provide mailing labels to someone abroad who would redistribute Moby Crypto, though from a country where that would be legal -- but never said how the first copy would get to the trans- shipment point. Some reasons were given why this sequence was going to be technically legal -- but if you were a U.S. attorney investigating the export of cryptographic software, it's the sort of thing that almost has to be investigated. Face it -- if Ward *wanted* to generate a test case, he couldn't have done a much better job; a private note to the authorities could have been ``misfiled'', but an announcement to tens of thousands of readers around the world? C'mon -- they may or may not be stupid, and they may or may not be paranoid, but their entire raison d'etre is to wield power, and Grady just slapped that authority in the face. Spitting at your local traffic cop would have been a lot safer. As for PKP -- *somehow*, it wandered out of the U.S. Probably, someone in power decided that that finally needed investigating in detail, to see if a law was broken. And Sternlight is right -- if they decide to indict, they may throw in charges of importing IDEA, though I doubt that they'd indict just on those grounds; in an era of key escrow, they'd certainly like a court to rule they had the power to exclude subversive foreign crypto.... --Steve Bellovin

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Re: What can we do in the next few days? (fwd)
by paul＠poboy.b17c.ingr.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> I wrote Grady Ward under separate cover about Bruce Schneier's > upcoming book, published by John Wiley & Sons.. Last I heard, its > title was "Practical Cryptography," and it's scheduled to hit the > streets around November 1st. > The book includes source code for DES, RSA, DH, IDEA, and several > others (Snefru and Lucifer?). IMHO its most salient feature is the > inclusion of that source code _on a floppy._ > This should probably be added to the reference list; I've emailed > Bruce to get the ISBN number and will post it when he responds. > Illegitimus nil carborundum, > -Paul -- Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG | "Change the world for a better tomorrow. But perobich(a)ingr.com | watch your ass today." - aaron(a)halcyon.com Intergraph Federal Systems | Be a cryptography user- ask me how.

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Re: meaningless rumor
by smb＠research.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Assuming that whoevever implemented PGP did not himself import the cipher, but based the implementation on the EUROCRYPT '90 paper that was 'imported' by Springer-Verlag, I don't understand what the basis would be for such a charge. Now an indictment against Springer for shipping the proceedings (which contained C source code for IDEA) into the US - that would be interesting... As you say, ``assuming''. The Feds can afford to lose that count because of the facts of this case; they can't afford to lose on a point of law. I don't know what the facts are, or what they can prove about them. They may not, either, at this point, pending the results of the grand jury probe.

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Re: KEY ESCROW PROCEDURES
by cme＠ellisun.sw.stratus.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: Mike Godwin <mnemonic(a)eff.org> >Message-Id: <199309181851.AA05084(a)eff.org> >Subject: Re: KEY ESCROW PROCEDURES >Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 14:51:57 -0400 (EDT) > >Carl writes: > >> Meanwhile, where is the proof that the key being requested corresponds to >> a person on whom a wiretap has been ordered? > >The authorized key request will normally occur after law-enforcement >officials have snagged the chip serial number from the LEAF >(law-enforcement field) of the signal they captured with an authorized >wiretap. Mike, that's the theory but there is no proof that the signal was captured with an authorized wiretap. For that, the key registration agents have to trust the law enforcement agency. If the LE agency can be trusted, there's no need for the key registration agencies. Part of the reason for encryption of communications is to guard against illegal actions by law enforcement agencies. - Carl

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Re: meaningless rumor
by an5877＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Assuming that whoevever implemented PGP did not himself import the cipher, but > based the implementation on the EUROCRYPT '90 paper that was 'imported' > by Springer-Verlag, According to idea.c in the PGP sources: * Algorithm developed by Xuejia Lai and James L. Massey, of ETH Zurich. * This implementation modified and derived from original C code * developed by Xuejia Lai. Of course, idea.c and PGP as a whole have been substantially improved by an international community; importing their warez may be as much of an "offense" as importing IDEA. (Certainly the prosecution of these actions is equal in absurdity.) DEADBEAT <na5877(a)anon.penet.fi> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3 iQBFAgUBLJ26yfFZTpBW/B35AQEOlQF/WiYCKSLEDU9XDL57YIHGIRxaBae3vIiA BkTK/sLzZKsVPM87Ol2qGRa4n5kttHfU =MCTV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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Newsgroup...
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In article <Pine.3.05.9309192343.A161-9100000-9100000@netcom3> cvoid(a)netcom.com writes: > So, is there a specific reason why someone hasn't created an > <alt.cypherpunks> newsgroup? It seems appropriate, as most of the current > mass amounts of traffic are dedicated to paranoia and bickering... Erm... because this is the only place left we can have a sensible discussion without Sternlight bringing any argument down to the level of the absurd? G -- Personal mail to gtoal(a)gtoal.com (I read it in the evenings) Business mail to gtoal(a)an-teallach.com (Be careful with the spelling!) Faxes to An Teallach Limited: +44 31 662 4678 Voice: +44 31 668 1550 x212

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Encrypted logins?
by Forrest Aldrich 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is there a way to set up an encrypted login session, whereby the calling program would need a 'key' in order to decrypt the connection to even see the 'login: ' prompt? I thought I saw something like this for the ham-radio enthusiasts. It uses plain-DES to do the work. But this would require that your calling program be some type of comm prog with the decryption/encryption abilities within. I understand that some gov logins use this type of scheme.

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