- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

bye.bye
by Bjorn Asman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a "living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe. bye.bye bjorn.asman(a)infodesign.se.org Roerstrandsgatan 7a 41703.Goeteborg Phone +46-(0)31-221056 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, and the geography is Elsewhere -Donna Haraway ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Announcing ZDNet Exclusives!
by announce＠lists.zdnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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bye.bye
by Bjorn Asman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have to agree that Mr. Tim C May have a big point. Even if i didn't like all the things Mr. May wrote so could i read it, and that is the point i think Mr. Sandford missed. That is to have a list that is a "living" list. You have to have all the people giving their chanche to say what tehy like even if they dont are "mentaly healthy".I have one more thing to "say". Namely to say bye.bye. to this list. I have never posted to this list, i have only read it, because i like the freedom in it (free speech and so on), but if i have to change my subscription to unedit-cypherpunks just to "hear" the freedom of speech, i rather just say no and unsubscribe. bye.bye bjorn.asman(a)infodesign.se.org Roerstrandsgatan 7a 41703.Goeteborg Phone +46-(0)31-221056 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The subjects are cyborg, nature is coyote, and the geography is Elsewhere -Donna Haraway ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the >>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the >>tyrant will get them killed. Even if the attempt was successful. >>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more >>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams. > >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no >motive other than financial gain. I would submit that there are those that >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks >acceptable. These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the >rich/powerful In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from "rich and powerful" people can be identified as such. After all, with the appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a single $1000 donation. Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows from where the money came. However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the overall effects. While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly." Government agents come to mind, of course. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Govt & cyberspace
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh wrote: > Steve writes: > >Democracy is not without its significant shortcomings. If you doubt this > >read Tocquevelle. > Or Hayek. Democracy, after all, is majoritarian rule. Living under a > homogenous majority, with its whims and desires as law, would be more > oppressive than living under a benign dictatorship. I wish for once and for all someone would delineate this "democracy" thing from a true, distributed democracy, where every individual is required to participate equally, and no narrow interests can co-opt the vote the way they do in the kind of "democracy" Declan mentions. Wouldn't it be better when people mention a one-word political philosophy such as democracy, that they make the definition more precise by using two or three words instead?

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Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Against Moderation 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Secret Squirrel <nobody(a)squirrel.owl.de> writes: > Against Moderation wrote: > > In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not > > completely trivial. > > Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? Read the rest of my message. I never said it wasn't pussible, it's just a question of how much effort I want to put in (which at this point, being roughly proportionaly to the quality of articles on cypherpunks, is close to zero). Whatever the difficulty or ease of fixing my mail filter, however, the fact that I haven't done it yet should not be counted as a vote in favor of moderation. This is what I am objecting to in John's article. John, if you are seriously interested in input from list members, then I have a proposal that I think is only fair. Why don't you create a new mailing list called cypherpunks-edited, which receives exactly the same filtered content as the current "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" list. Then encourage people to move from cypherpunks to either the -edited or -unedited lists to express their desires for the future of the list. In a another month, compare the subsription lists of the 3 lists. If there are considerably more subscribers to cypherpunks-edited than cypherpunks-unedited, then you can reasonably claim that a lot of list members want to see the list filtered. However, if, as I suspect, the number of people subscribing to the -edited and -unedited lists is statistically insignificant next to the people on the main cypherpunks list, then subscription counts are not a valid metric for judging the desires of list members. Of course, in the mean time I would like to see cypherpunks revert to an unmoderated list, but I'm not going to push my luck. I'd already be happe just to see the creation of a cypherpunks-edited list.

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in > > fact drunk, watch out! > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though. > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-) I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial parties last night. It made the craps table action seem a bit merrier, and the girls were friendlier too.

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RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:15 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >>The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the >>wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the >>tyrant will get them killed. Even if the attempt was successful. >>The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more >>by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams. > >I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no >motive other than financial gain. I would submit that there are those that >have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the >wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks >acceptable. These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the >rich/powerful In practice, we can't hold out much hope that donations to an AP system from "rich and powerful" people can be identified as such. After all, with the appropriate software I could just as easily make 100, $10 donations as a single $1000 donation. Assuming anonymity held, nobody but the donor knows from where the money came. However, fortunately I don't think it would make any difference in the overall effects. While AP would eliminate the taxation which is commonly thought of as the main way a "rich person" loses assets, in practice it would also shut down the well-hidden systems that allow some people to get rich (or, merely live off somebody else) "unfairly." Government agents come to mind, of course. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Steve Boursey writes: > Well EFF itself is a lie--the were very well exposed by Wired Mag. a > while back as being nothing more than a corporate whore. They represent > the interests of owners not consumers--the ACLU has been very open > in their critisism of the EFF in this regard. A large corporation > waves some money in front of their noses and tells them to bend > over you can be sure they'll bend over. It's not clear from where I sit that the EFF is intrinsically evil. A case can be argued for their initial good intentions followed by the subsequent poisoning of this intent by people with lots of money. Of course, -any- organization is as susceptable to infiltration as their weakest member. > Respectable free speech advocates do not associate with EFF. If one is going to advocate free speech, I strongly suggest one learns to deal with one's own greed and one's own need for power first. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet You possess only what will not be lost in a shipwreck.

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Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Jeremiah A Blatz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Just to add my $.02 to the me too pile: It should be noted that the subscription from netbb+internet. cypherpunks(a)andrew.cmu.edu is a mail<->news gateway for Carnegie Mellon University people. It represents maybe 10-50 cypherpunks readers. I used to read cypherpunks from there, but I see some kind soul has subscribed CMU to the unedited list, so I will read that instead. My killfile is just enough censorship for me. On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of the usenet underirables. Waiting for the end of moderation, Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMvgpEskz/YzIV3P5AQHzygL/Ur5YjSD8D8wNn5B74mdHASUqj1Gelwi+ GT3wIITGh1RMnFFEYQLWCyjW9NVJ6RIKJY6t5rLzRiy4gNe0jA8AMNI6E8NuaFV1 J8SDjY0oAo0ixBJHzv0MXui8f4ciS4tD =Lbs9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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