- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

native onani
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:24 AM 11/27/98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: > Obviously >neither homosexual nor homophobic, both groups >prefer the chaste option of onani (onanism) to the perceived compromises of >marital consummation. Worse than that, they use a geijing word for masturbation... --If the spice girls mud-wrestled shonen knife, who would win?

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[Fwd: Fw: Court Strikes Down Federal Mandates Again]
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > While I have not found this case decision posted anywhere but in this > usenet posting, I have found some background info: > http://www.rcfp.org/NMU/961216b.html > Local Sovereignty Update > US Court Again Upholds State Sovereignty and Strikes Down Federal = > Mandate > This month we have another case in which the federal courts have = > recognized that the federal government has no authority to impose any = > mandate on state or local government. > Printz v. US ruled that '[t]he Federal Government may neither issue = > directives requiring the States to address particular problems, nor = > command the States' officers, or those of their political subdivisions, = > to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program.' That across = > the board prohibition is simply being applied to various federal = > mandates one after the other.=20 > =20 > CONDON v US, Decided: September 3, 1998 =20 > > =20 > In 1994 Congress passed the Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA), = > which tried to set federal standards governing how and when information = > in driving records could be released. The DPPA said that "Any State = > department of motor vehicles that has a policy or practice of = > substantial noncom- pliance . . . shall be subject to a civil penalty = > imposed by the Attorney General of not more than $5,000 a day."=20 > =20 > South Carolina, joined by several other states, refused to implement the = > Driver's Privacy Protection Act (DPPA), and sued the Federal government = > in US Court demanding that the law be recognized by the federal courts = > as a violation of the Tenth and Eleventh Amendments to the United States = > Constitution. > =20 > The Fourth Circuit Court struck down DPPA ruling that > > > "Under our system of dual sovereignty, "[t]he powers not delegated to = > the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the = > States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." U.S. = > Const. amend. X. Because Congress lacked the authority to enact the DPPA = > under either the Commerce Clause or Section 5 of the Fourteenth = > Amendment, we affirm the judgment of the district court." > > > The Court also stated plainly that: "Congress may not enact any law that = > would direct the functioning of the States' executives or legislatures." = > > > Citing the New York and Printz cases the court said that the Supreme = > Court's ruling with respect to federal mandates "has been a model of = > consistency."=20 > > Some of the more important quotes from the case follow: > > > In New York v. United States, 505 U.S. 144 (1992) the Supreme Court = > held that Congress could not "commandeer[ ] the legislative processes of = > the States by directly compelling them to enact and enforce a federal = > regulatory program." ... In Printz v. US the court held "that Congress = > cannot circumvent that prohibition by conscripting the State's officers = > directly." Id. at 2384. The Court went on to note that '[t]he Federal = > Government may neither issue directives requiring the States to address = > particular problems, nor command the States' officers, or those of their = > political subdivisions, to administer or enforce a federal regulatory = > program.' " > =20 > > "The Supreme Court, in both New York and Printz, has made it perfectly = > clear that the Federal Government may not require State officials to = > administer a federal regulatory program." > > > "Although Congress has regulated the disclosure of personal information = > by some private parties, the Constitution permits Congress to regulate = > the conduct of individuals. In contrast, Congress may not, as a general = > matter, regulate the conduct of the States. See New York, 505 U.S. at = > 166 ("[T]he Framers explicitly chose a Constitution that confers upon = > Congress the power to regulate individuals, not States." (quoted with = > approval in Printz, 117 S. Ct. at 2377)). " > > "The United States also contends that the DPPA was properly enacted = > pursuant to Congress's power under Section 5 of the Four- teenth = > Amendment. In light of the Supreme Court's landmark decision in City of = > Boerne v. Flores, 117 S. Ct. 2157 (1997), we are constrained to = > disagree." > > Congress's power to enact legislation under the Fourteenth Amendment is = > not unlimited, however. See, e.g. , City of Boerne v. Flores, 117 S. Ct. = > 2157, 2171 (1997) (holding that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is = > "a considerable congressional intrusion into the States' traditional = > prerogatives," and that Congress exceeded its power under the Fourteenth = > Amendment in enacting the statute); Gregory v. Ashcroft, 501 U.S. 452, = > 469 (1991) (stating that "the Four- teenth Amendment does not override = > all principles of federalism"); Oregon v. Mitchell, 400 U.S. 112, 128 = > (1970) (noting that "[a]s broad as the congressional enforcement power = > is, it is not unlimited"). For instance, Congress's power "extends only = > to enforc[ing] the provi- sions of the Fourteenth Amendment." City of = > Boerne, 117 S. Ct. at 2164 (emphasis added) (internal quotation marks = > omitted). Of perhaps equal importance, it is only a preventative or = > remedial power, not a substantive power. See id. at 2167. As a result, = > Congress does not possess "the power to determine what constitutes a = > constitutional violation." Id. at 2164.=20 > > > "neither the Supreme Court nor this Court has ever found a = > constitutional right to privacy with respect to the type of information = > found in motor vehicle records. Accordingly, Congress did not have the = > authority under Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment to enact the = > DPPA." ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr. Hettinga Bostoned: >True enough. The water runs off the mountains *into* most of Death Valley, >not *out* of it. The Totos > Todt An experience not to be missed is walking on the boiling water that collects at the lowest hottest point of the US. The encrusted mineral deposits left as the moisture evaporates create a hurricanic wreckcape of razor sharp crystals and suffocating stench in 120-degree+ summer heat -- yourself abarbeque. Not far away is where rocks moonwalk across the flat landscape, leaving astronautic tracks of their movement which has not yet been explained by NASA investigators, all unawares pancaked by their implacable specimens heading home for Jupiter. Then there's the nearby location where earth's gravity is not perpendicular, and all vegetation is angled exactly to fit the cant. When you step into the gavitational field you tip like Pisa's Tower obeying the pull. Some learned idiots say this is due to undergound deposits of metallic ore or a chunk of Mars. (There are several such sites around the US, one the Pentagon Parking Lot East, where the levitators worked the 1969 liftoff). All this perfectly tunes in to crypto channel because it is from Death Valley that our film crew returned today from shooting the Toto Family, not CJ's family but the band of creatures who gypsy under The Toto Mantle (TTM). Yes, they are ghoulish beyond ancestor-vulgar Pacific Rim loathsome, but that is not what cracked up us TransAtlanticists. It was watching the whole crew of TTMs simultaneously, in concert, keening and hair strumming, produce encrypted text, each contributing algorithmicly single alpha numerical digits, plink A, plonk 2, plunk %, in perfect signed PGP, bypassing incluement grammatical plaintext, EZ-guessable PWs and crackerjacktoy keys to issue pure incomprehensibility which could be instantaneously decrypted by an incomprehending viewer barechest-lathered with Death Valley Vapor Rub(DVVR) (TM-TTM). There is this, too. Each TM-TTM rubber descoda was genuine, authentic, narcotic, immimicable, that is certain from the Radiant Glow of Ego ID Superego Transcendence that erases the codebarer barefooting meatslicing mineral deposits, bareback riding walking rocks, bare-ass leaning into the fully exposed future disclosed in the deathseeking porno-crypto-graphy of The Totos > Todt (TT>T).

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Echelon's Origin
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The NSA released during the summer a Top Secret memorandum by Truman in 1952 establishing NSA as the lead COMINT agency for the USG: http://jya.com/nsa102452.htm After the dry description of decisionmaking procedures there are tantalizing pointers to the means NSA is to use to spy on foreign governments' communications, with reference to accommodating allies at NSA facilities -- read it carefully. Also, it's chilling to read that COMINT was so vital that Truman declared it to be free from any constraints placed on all other forms of intelligence. And the DIRNSA was given authority to command any military department or civilian agency for COMINT purposes It would be helpful to learn what superceded this memo for authority to engage in global COMINT. Yes, we accept anonymous contributions for COMINTers. Erich Moechel writes that France has its version of Echelon and wiretapping, and shares its fruits with Germany, in competition with the Echelon-Five. The French have built up an Echelon like wiretapping system of their own, operating from Dordogne (France), French Guayana & Nouvelle Caledonie. Would anyone have more information on this program? And what about other Echelons around the world?

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INFO-RUSS: "Post-Soviet Science and Technology" class (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: >From INFO-RUSS-request(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu Thu Oct 1 21:43:40 1998 Message-Id: <9810012329.AA25272(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu> Errors-To: INFO-RUSS-request(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu Sender: INFO-RUSS-request(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:19:28 -0700 To: info-russ(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu From: "Andrei G. Chakhovskoi" <chakhovs(a)ece.ucdavis.edu> Subject: INFO-RUSS: "Post-Soviet Science and Technology" class --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is INFO-RUSS broadcast (1200+ subscribers). Home page, information, and archives: http://psi.ece.jhu.edu/~kaplan/IRUSS/inforuss.html To post, or to subscribe/unsubscribe, mail to info-russ(a)smarty.ece.jhu.edu INFO-RUSS assumes no responsibility for the information/views of its users. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear INFO-RUSS netters: I am teaching a class on "Post-Soviet Science and Technology" at the University of California at Davis. If you can share any information, personal experience, or if you can point to an information source relevant to the subject - please respond to the message below. This year, I begin teaching a class which talks about a recent history and up-to-date changes in science, technology and ecology in Russia and the republics of the former USSR. This class is more like an "experimental" effort to take a look at the current situation in scientific and technology field in former USSR. Being involved for many years in high-tech research in Russian Academy of Sciences as well as in several defense R&D institutions in Moscow and the vicinity, I am naturally interested to learn what is happening there now. Although I am working at UC Davis since 1992, I am still involved in a number of collaborative projects with my former Russian and Ukranian co-workers. I was sharing my thoughts about the situation in Soviet science and technology with my colleagues at UC Davis and Sandia NL, as well as with scientists at various forums and conferences; and I found that there is actually a big interest to this issue. Sometimes a spontaneous discussion has originated from these conversations, leading to an invitation to give a talk about the subject. People were interested to hear about current challenges and difficulties faced by Russian scientists as well as about intellectual and technological potential accumulated in Russia and former USSR countries. And always the audience was interested to hear more information and details than could be delivered in one single talk. After a few talks I decided to expand the effort and I approached the Teaching Resources Center at UC Davis with a proposal to originate an interdepartmental seminar on this subject. The idea was welcomed, and the seminar got approved for the Fall of 1998. Currently, this is one-quarter (8 weeks) seminar for a small group of students (15 people) from different specialities. Most of them are freshman who do not have chosen a major speciality yet. Depending the success of this seminar it may eventually grow into a bigger course. The exact title of this seminar is "The Effects of the Changing Economy on Technology and Ecology in Russia and New Independent Countries". The term "Changing Economy" here is not just economy but also implies "State and Political System". Although I will try to concentrate on science and technology more than on politics and economy, I afraid that it will be impossible to ignore political and economical issues, especially due to the recent crisis in Russia. Because of the nature of this seminar and the subject studied, there is no solid curriculum or a single book which can be used throughout the quarter. The students need to collect the most recent information from the Internet and periodicals and they are encouraged to study and compare different opinions obtained from various communication sources. I do have a growing collection of WEB-links and press documents relevant to the subject, but this collection is far from being complete. I will appreciate it if you can point to the WEB-links, to newsgroups which discuss relevant issues, or to documents which can be downloaded and used for this class. I will especially appreciate it if you have materials like photos, brief videos, documents, magazines, newspapers which you can loan or share for this seminar. If it involves copying expenses I can make copies of the materials and return the originals, or I can provide a reimbursement for copying/mailing expenses. All the materials will be used for educational purpose only, the source or the author of the material will be identified with a proper reference and acknowledgement. A very important part of this seminar is related to a personal experience shared by people who are working or used to work in this field. I will appreciate any documents of a personal matter - memories, stories which can be shared with the students. Also, I would like to invite interested parties to join a discussion as invited speakers. I would like to invite somebody who was involved in joint research/development projects between USA and Russia, who is working in the field related to technology transfer and international scientific collaboration, or who just has an experience working in high-tech field in Russia to share his/her experience and feelings. If anybody is living not very far from Davis, CA or traveling in Northern California in October/November - I would be extremely delighted if you find it possible to give a talk at this seminar. We meet each Tuesday between October 6 and November 24. Unfortunately, due to the size of the seminar the budget for this quarter is quite limited so I will not be able to offer you a generous honorarium, or fly you from New York or Boston, but at least I can reimburse you for the travel from San Francisco Bay area / Silicon Valley (about $ 50). Please e-mail me at chakhovs(a)ece.ucdavis.edu Thanks and best regards, Dr. Andrei G. Chakhovskoi Lecturer / Research Scientist University of California at Davis Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering

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MEDIA RELEASE: Data Fellows and TSP to Cooperate
by Marita N�sman-Repo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Press Release For immediate release Data Fellows Strengthens Its Position as Leading Data Security Vendor in Europe TSP and Its Worldwide Partner Network Joins Data Fellows Helsinki, Finland, October 2, 1998 - Data Fellows, the developer of the ground-breaking F-Secure Anti-Virus and Cryptography product family, and the Dutch company TSP - The Security Provider have signed a cooperation and distribution agreement. TSP, whose owners were behind ThunderByte anti-virus toolkit, currently has over 40 distributors and 12 million ThunderByte users world-wide. TSP specializes in security consultancy and marketing of information security products. According to the announced cooperation agreement, TSP will concentrate on selling Data Fellows products in the Netherlands, and its international operations and distribution network will be taken over by Data Fellows and its partners. "The addition of TSP to our list of partners will be yet another step toward our goal of being among the top data security providers in the world." says Risto Siilasmaa, President and CEO of Data Fellows. "Together with Data Fellows complete line of data security products, TSPs network of distributors around the world is going to make a valuable contribution to our existing world wide partner network that already covers over 80 countries." Says Harald Zeeman of TSP, "The anti-virus market structures are changing. The customers today demand overall data security solutions instead of point applications. Therefore it is important for a small company like ours to form alliances and thereby to remain viable. The future belongs to those who have the broadest expertise and service to its customers. "With this alliance we are able to serve our existing customer base by offering them migration not only to the award-winning F-Secure Anti-Virus product range but above all to the F-Secure Workstation Suite which Data Fellows recently announced." TSP was founded in 1998 after Norman Data Defense Systems B.V. took over the development of the ThunderByte scanning engine. About Data Fellows Data Fellows is one of the worlds leading developers of data security products. The Company develops, markets and supports anti-virus, data security and cryptography software products for corporate computer networks. It has offices in San Jose, California, and Espoo, Finland, with corporate partners, VARs and other distributors in over 80 countries around the world. All F-Secure products are integrated into the CounterSign management architecture, which provides a three-tier, scaleable, policy-based management infrastructure to minimize the costs of security management. F-Secure Workstation Suite consists of malicious code detection and removal, unobtrusive file and network encryption, and personal firewall functionality, all integrated into a policy-based management architecture. F-Secure Anti-Virus, with multiple scanning engines (including F-PROT and AVP), is the most comprehensive, real-time virus scanning and protection system for all Windows platforms. F-Secure VPN+ provides a software-based, IPSEC-compliant Virtual Private Network solution for large corporate networks as well as remote and small office networks. F-Secure FileCrypto is the first and only product to integrate strong real-time encryption directly into the Windows file system. F-Secure SSH provides secure remote login, terminal, and other connections over unsecured networks. It is the most widely used secure remote administration tool. F-Secure NameSurfer is the solution for remote Internet and Intranet DNS administration. Its easy-to-use WWW user interface automates and simplifies DNS administration. The Company has customers in more than 100 countries, including many of the worlds largest industrial corporations and best-known telecommunications companies, major international airlines, European governments, post offices and defense forces, and several of the worlds largest banks. The Company was named one of the Top 100 Technology companies in the world by Red Herring magazine in its September 1998 issue. Other commendations include Hot Product of the Year 1997 (Data Communications Magazine); Best Anti-Virus product (SVM Magazine, May 1997); Editors Choice (SECURE Computing Magazine); and the 1996 European Information Technology Prize. For more information, please contact: USA: Data Fellows Inc. Mr. Petri Laakkonen, President Tel. +1 408 938 6700, fax +1 408 938 6701 E-mail: Petri.Laakkonen(a)DataFellows.com Europe: Data Fellows Oy Mr. Jari Holmborg, VP, Sales and Marketing PL 24 FIN-02231 ESPOO Tel. +358 9 859 900, fax. +358 9 8599 0599 E-mail: Jari.Holmborg(a)DataFellows.com or visit our web site at http://www.DataFellows.com -- Marita.Nasman-Repo(a)DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com

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Increase Your Paycheck Next Week
by HyperReal-Anon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hello, asshole: I'd just like to suggest that you fuck yourself with a large metal hook in all bodily cavities. As you are bleeding out, pour 12M nitric acid in your wounds and feel the burn. If you are still conscious, superglue your little finger in a centrifuge and turn it on at maximum speed. If you are still conscious, stick your head into a liquid nitrogen bath. All your coworkers should repeat this procedure. As an alternative, you can tie any coworkers you have up and bathe them in concentrated nitric acid while you shower them in NH4OH. Place your penis in liquid nitrogen and then attempt to jack off. Finally, drink a concentrated hydrochloric acid solution followed by concentrated sodium hydroxide solution. In the unlikely event that you are able to do so, scream 'I AM THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE!' over and over again while dancing until you pass out. I wave to Interpol. Hey Louis! What's shaking? 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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:59 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote: >> There is a desert which is 1000 miles across. There is a camel who can carry >> 1000 bananas maximum. The camel eats 1 banana per mile travelled. The camel >> has a total of 3000 bananas to begin with. What is the maximum number of >> bananas that the camel can get across to the other side uneaten? > >My camels don't understand/can't eat fractional bananas. Why are bananas quantized in the presense of camels? Is this a quantum-computing thing?

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > > When I talk of a free market I mean Laissez Faire Capitalism, > > not Anarcho-Capitalism. > > What's the specific difference? I cannot claim to be an expert on anarcho-capitalism, but the fundamental difference is Laissez Faire Capitalists believes in limited government. The primary role of government being the abolition of coercive force, the protection of intellectual property, and running or overseeing of what can absolutely be justified as a natural monopoly (e.g. military defense, sewer, local roads, etc). Anarcho-capitalism on the other hand believes in no government (anarchy) and that social institutions and co-ops will assume any functions that a government would have had. Some believe that people and organizations will independently prevent force will others believe in a competitive free market for force and protection. In either case there is no government interference in free trade (except LF would prohibit Assassination Politics (AP) and similar). > In what way are the resulting markets different from > either the producers or consumers view? Views on intellectual property and the obvious marketplace changes due to an IP or lack of IP framework would be the major difference IMHO. I cannot currently justify no intellectual property rights taken to an extreme, and then you have the contradiction of force within the framework of commerce. > Explain further what you mean by abolition of force is a > prerequisite please. Basically no person (or entity) can use force (or its derivatives) against another person (or entity). Your long history of criminal law, except stripped of all victimless crimes. > And what specificaly do you mean by proper role of government? "What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense. Each of us has a natural right--from God--to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend -- even by force -- his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right -- its reason for existing, its lawfulness -- is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force -- for the same reason -- cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups. Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say that force has been given to us to destroy the equal rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights of others, does it not logically follow that the same principle also applies to the common force that is nothing more than the organized combination of the individual forces? If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than this: The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all." from _The Law_, by Frederick Bastiat Matt

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Brown, R Ken 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Petro[SMTP:petro@playboy.com] wrote: > Sent: 01 October 1998 21:23 > >>I'm afraid sir, that your ingonorance is showing. Pick up any college >>(hell, high school) ecomonics textbook. Certain types of businesses are >>inheritly advantagious to monopolies. The electric company is the classic > >>example- their is no cost effective way for an electric company to > supply > >>power to a given area unless it is a monopoly. Certain types of > businesses > >>are suited to certain types of competition, and, unregulated, monopolies > >>are exactly what you get. This was exactly the situation that occured > at > >>the turn of the century and it happened because regulation was > >>non-existant! Your statement is wonderfully trite but I see no evidence > to > >>support it. > > I'd suggest you go back to school and think a bit.In most places >the "Electric Company" is a goverment sponsored and deligated monopoly. >Competition is prohibited by REGULATION. This also occurs with Gas, Water, >Telephone, especially Non-commercial, cable, and in some places Garbage >disposal. Nonsense. Most of those businesses became monopolies - or local monopolies - in the relatively unregulated 1880-1914 period. In some of them - like rail or oil in the USA - governments introduced regulation to *force* competition. In UK over the last 30 years government has used a thing called the "Monopolies and Mergers Commission" to investigate & (very occasionally) break up monopolies or cartels. Government introduced regulation to stop BT selling some products in order to allow competion to grow. Recently government has forcibly broken up gas supply monopolies in this country. I don't believe there are that many natural monopolies Where there *are* natural monopolies it is because the entry cost is higher than any likely profit. Obvious case is water. It would cost you a hell of a lot to guarantee water supply to my street in London without using the existing infrastructure. Probably hundreds of millions of pounds. I pay less than a hundred pounds a year for my water. Natural monopoly. What happens much more often is that one company becomes dominant and then uses money to undersell rivals. Or even buy them up. Maybe even pay more for them It seems to be a common personality characteristic of people who run big companies that they want to run even bigger ones. The worst enemy of small business is big business. Now, if you wanted to say that in most countries big business and government had their hands in each others pockets I'd agree with you. But sometimes governments realise that monopolies are bad - or the voters tell them that monopolies are bad - and they introduce regulation to enforce competition. Some other problems - in some businesses (like oil) the capital investment required is so large that although there is no natural monopoly the players ahve to be big. It might even be that there are some business (long-distance airlcraft?) where the natural number of players in the world market is 1 - there just aren't enough customers to justify 2 companies making the investment (which is maybe why European governments stepped in to create Airbus). Garbage (what we call rubbish over here) collection is different again. It's not at all a nutural monopoly and there is nothing stopping anyone offering to do it as a business. But it is a natural for social ownership, not private ownership. The trouble with rubbish is that I want my *neighbour's* rubbish to be collected as well as my own. I can pay for mine, but what if he can't pay for his? (Like what if he is an unemployable alcoholic, with severe Tourette's syndrome who stands on street corners for sometimes 24 hours at a stretch, singing old soul and gospel songs, yelling and screaming at anyone who comes close, and drinking can after can of cheap beer to calm himself down enough so he can get some sleep?). I don't want his rubbish on my street. The easiest way to arrange that is for the majority who want rubbish collection to band together to pay for it for everybody. And the easiest way to arrange that is through tax and local government. Same applies to education - I might be able to pay for my daughter to go to school but we want everybody else's kids to go to school as well because my life is better if they do. So we pay for it through tax. If I don't watch out this will turn into a list of the 6 reasons why, even though private business is nearly always more efficient, *some* enterprises need to be publically owned. Ken Brown (usual disclaimer - nothing to do with my employers) > -- > petro(a)playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy. > petro(a)bounty.org-----for everthing else. They wouldn't like that. > They REALLY > Economic speech IS political speech. wouldn't like that. >

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