- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

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by edwardk＠msn.com 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

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Re: Hayek was right. Twice.
by jamesd＠echeque.com 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

-- > >We both created stuff we didn't expect to be paid for - these > >emails. On 3 Jul 2002 at 20:49, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > True. But somehow I fail to see how one can scale this sort of > reasoning to entail anything approaching one of the current > TOP10 movies. First, lost of people make plays, music, ballet, etc, without expectation of turning a profit from copyright. Partly it is to impress the chicks, partly to sell idea, and sell stuff. The Powerpuff movie is largely funded by toymakers. Secondly, if everyone had a chip containing all the movies and television shows that were ever made, would it be such a disaster if movie production declined? Most movies, and most music videos are just copycat stuff. In the course of channel surfing I recently saw the latest singer chick, made up like Suzi Quatro, doing a total ripoff of Suzi Quatro's version of "I love rock and roll", using very similar props to Suzi Quatro. Did we really need the extra version? Would it not be better if we had better access to the original (and much better) version. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cViyObtLN5BKiheTPxywftMCkfzYp19VoUGNbStu 2J8LQiLfHEVpAn5S63xnIH6XUNss3bIzaSNfvdCvv

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Re: Hayek was right. Twice.
by R. A. Hettinga 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 12:41 PM +0300 on 7/3/02, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > No. It is the case with the digitized version, but not the work. What is a CD but a copy of a work, Sampo? Record companies sell *records*, right? A copy on my hard drive is *my* copy. I can, in fact, sell you a copy of my copy (I love recursion....), but then the space, occupied by your copy, is *your* copy. It's rival. > Did this thread really start with something taken from LMD? The > list really *has* stooped to an all-time low... :-). I'm not the yokel who started this fight quoting LMD, I'm just the guy who's finishing it... The non-rival, non-excludable thing is standard academic econ-talk, though. I was jerking his chain a bit about quoting a eurosocialist rag, like you seem to be doing. The part about it not being applicable is close to being right, thought. Or at least that even if one applies the non-rival, non-excludable double negative nonsense one still gets the right answer with private transactions involving all digital goods and services. > The point in copyright wars is about incentives to authors vs. the > right to copy privately, not about the ease of copying. Sure, > microtransactions are a possibility. But when the yield does not go > to the one who created the master copy, why should anyone create > anything, anymore? (Or, more realistically, why should people > create at an efficient level?) For me, this is all about Coase's theorem, transaction cost, Coase's observation that you can't have a market without property, and the fact that, of course, if transaction costs were low enough, if we had a working bearer cash economy on the net, for instance, the definition of property would not be a legal one involving "intellectual property", but a physical one, about encrypted bits, protected not with laws, but with strong financial cryptography protocols. Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.5 iQA/AwUBPSL1u8PxH8jf3ohaEQK0JQCgvEOEsTIGXNOzEWgcvsO4eUmzjkAAoPAC 1tHGCoKRd/zJM4vj+6ihuKoL =4uQY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: data mining for moles
by Anonymous 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

Gee, maybe I should head for Cali and set up a linux cluster shop. > The central feature of > the facility was a $1.5 million IBM AS400 > mainframe, the kind once used by banks, > networked with half a dozen terminals and > monitors.

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Re: Hayek was right. Twice.
by Anonymous 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

Mark Popescu wrote: >There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the >market outcome is always efficient". There is more to it than a tautology. Ignoring market failures (such things as public goods and externalities), markets are efficient in the sense that they produce a Pareto optimal outcome. Pareto optimality is a state in which you can't make everyone better off by rearranging who has what; you have to make at least one person worse off if you benefit anyone else. A Pareto nonoptimal state, which is what you get with public goods, is a condition where you could redistribute wealth and resources and make every person happier or at least no less happy. In the case of, say, recorded music as a public good, the market will not produce enough music relative to a Pareto optimal state. Some people would be willing to pay for more music, and this money would be more than enough to pay musicians to produce that music. So there is a redistribution which would make many people happier without making anyone less happy. But this redistribution won't happen, under market conditions. There is no mechanism to force people to pay when everyone can get music for free. And people are not willing to make sufficiently large voluntary contributions to fund the musicians because they know others are going to benefit just as much without paying a dime (the free rider problem). Detailed analysis supports the conclusion that, in general, markets under-provide public goods relative to a Pareto optimal outcome. Therefore it is clear that it is quite meaningful to investigate whether markets produce efficient or non-efficient outcomes in various situations. There is no tautology involved.

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Re: maximize best case, worst case, or average case? (TCPA)
by xganon 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

Ryan Lackey writes: > I consider DRM systems (even the not-secure, not-mandated versions) > evil due to the high likelyhood they will be used as technical > building blocks upon which to deploy mandated, draconian DRM systems. > DRM systems inevitably slide toward being more mandated, and more draconian. > > DRM-capable TCPA-type systems are evil by the same argument, even if > not used for DRM. > > The primary reason they are evil is not the stated goal of DRM systems > (copy protection in various forms), but the ease with which they could > be used to eliminate cypherpunk applications. Do you really think that DRM systems could eliminate cypherpunk applications? Have you thought this through in detail? Please expand on it. How many kinds of software would have to be eliminated for this to be true? What constitute "cypherpunk applications"? In how many forms could they be written and distributed? What kind of world would be necessary for DRM systems to actually be in use for the purpose of eliminating cypherpunk applications?

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Monthly Update from telegraph.co.uk
by telegraph.co.uk 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

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Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
by Marcel Popescu 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

From: "Sampo Syreeni" <decoy(a)iki.fi> > >There's no such thing as "efficient level", except in the tautology "the > >market outcome is always efficient". > > Only if you take as granted a market based on some fixed set of property > rights and other rules of exchange. If you do this, there is no reason to > discuss the issue further and your reply was, to put it bluntly, > superfluous. I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and voluntary exchange". > >We both created stuff we didn't expect to be paid for - these emails. > > True. But somehow I fail to see how one can scale this sort of reasoning > to entail anything approaching one of the current TOP10 movies. Irrelevant. Does Linux scale to your intended target any better? How about a voluntary army in WW2? People do even "grand" things without expecting to be paid (or even worse, expecting to die from it), because they want to. If you want them to produce more, feel free to pay them. Arguments "I don't like that they only produce this much, so YOU should pay them" are at least inane. Mark

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Insight on the News Email Edition
by Insight on the News 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

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Heard From Her Today 29031
by Donny 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

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