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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
by jamesd＠echeque.com 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

-- James A. Donald: > > Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like > > on demand access to all movies and television shows ever made, > > even if it meant fewer and lower budget movie releases in > > future?", I think most people would go for on demand access to > > everything. On 4 Jul 2002 at 10:40, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > That might well be. But being that you're tapping into something > largely produced under existing copyright law, I fail to see why > this is an argument against continuing the practice of copyright > in some form. A moment ago you were arguing maximum utility (your public good argument) Now you concede utility, and argue rights, but copyright, unlike real property, is merely a conventional right, created by the will and power of the state, not a natural right. If that convention ceases to be convenient and useful, ceases to have utility, we should not continue it. And if you are going to argue from long established conventional rights, copyright has been extended by twenty years every twenty years, so it is not a long established conventional right. Returning to your public good argument. As more and more stuff piles up, the production of new stuff becomes a less and less valuable public good. At the same time, as with any "public good", congress (being in the pocket of state created interest groups) creates greater and greater incentives to produce more and more of this public good. If an anarchic free market underproduces public goods, government subject to interest groups overproduces public goods, a problem that is particularly serious with such dubious public goods as "defense", cultural or racial purity, and so on and so forth. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AuUb5hhEidar6RcqijVgtwYwp/KmvStrc0T7DzHr 2RvexEhEvdWrbHJCBYyEdaMKK39UOJQJRBt9gjbKk

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04 Jul '02

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04 Jul '02

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04 Jul '02

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04 Jul '02

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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
by Gabriel Rocha 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

On Thu, Jul 04, at 01:26AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: | >I can't see a market defined as anything else than "private property and | >voluntary exchange". | | Then you really must be blind. Markets not based on private property or | volition abound. The political process is one of them. Social control is | another. Gift economies, like Open Source, are a third. One might claim | most markets are based on something other than the above mentioned | combination. Property does not always consist of physical goods. Case in point would be the encrypted bits. To use some of your examples, the polical process involves votes, which are the property of the person casting the ballots, likewise, at least in this country, ballots are cast voluntarily. "Gift economics." Who coined that phrase? Don't take credit for it, it is a stupid term. Time and effort are both considered "property" to be used as deemed fit by the person possessing, in this case, the skills to use them on an Open Source (the volunteer kind, since you can't seem to grasp that there are Open Source projects that make money.) | It does indeed. But unlike movies, Linux is a modular project. The kernel | would exist in the absence of the GNU toolset, and vice versa. X would | exist in the absence of UNIX, too. Each of the common desktop applications | could very well have been coded on top of something else than Linux. You're too ignorant to be replied to, I wish I hadn't wasted the time, but I digress. I can't think many things more modular than movies, except perhaps theatre, but movies have even more latitude. Actors can't be switched? Sets can't be constructed out of "nothing" on a computer screen? Movies can't be made with virtually no budget? Get a clue. | Why is it that there's no Buzz for Linux? No decent installer? (Not one of | them survives my hardware...) No workable Unicode support? A stable 64-bit | filesystem? Why is nobody willing to guarantee kernel stability, even when | paid big bucks? 'Cause the project is a gift, and only caters to a single | kind of need: something an individual developer/company really needs and | can afford to develop for him/itself, then losing little by exposing the | code to others. Usefulness thinly spread over a considerable user | community is completely forgotten. As someone who actually helps people with unix problems and who is a unix user, I want to let you know that you fall into the "stupid user" category if you can't get a linux distro to install on your computer. Linux is a new breed of project, if you want it and it really matters to you, the argument goes that you would either do it, (if you're capable, but you clearly aren't) or you pay someone else to do it. (this falls into the heading of "put your money where your mouth is.") Throw in the fact that "usefulness" is an entirely relative term, and you have a really poor argument. | Well, what stupid people they are. I wouldn't go anywhere as far as | gettimg myself killed for the common good. Even paying for software I can | just copy is a stretch. What makes you think most people care enough to Do | the Right Thing? What makes you think relying on Doing the Right Thing is | a good idea? I mean, it's been tried before, and the consequences aren't | worth a second look. Well, here you show your ignorance of economics again. ( on this one point, don't feel too bad, though you are ignorant, you're in a league that is very well populated ) First off, not everyone is motivated by financial gain. "profit" is not necessarily a financial thing, when someone stops and helps you out when you have a flat, the odds are that they are not expecting you to pay them for their help. When someone helps you install linux on your computer, they aren't likely to expect financial remuneration, specially if you go to one of the great many Linux User Groups throughout this country and many others. Often the economic argument made is that people do what is in their best interest. The problem that arises is when people who aren't very bright (hint, hint) assume that that means financial reward of some kind. People are complex creatures, to presume that financial gain is the only motivation for people is a tad naive. | Indeed they are. So are ones assuming that anything not profitable to a | single person couldn't be to a larger number of individuals. Like most | things, private property rights and economic theory based solely on | bilateral trade are a matter of continuous dispute. It's not that I don't | consider them useful (I do; nowadays you could call me, too, a | libertarian), but taking them as granted isn't the way to go, either. Well, libertarians usually, though not always, go along with free markets, which is not what you're advocating. Usually, any economic theory that assumes that anything could have no value to anyone is wrong. Basic relativity (in the subjective sense) states otherwise. Bilateral trade is the only kind of exchange in a free market enviroment. As long as the exchange is made freely and willingly (government regulation produces a bias, always.) it is always bilateral. --Gabe

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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
by Mikko Särelä 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

On Thu, 4 Jul 2002, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or the > special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution chain. Try > guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without making a loss. Luckily movie industry will not be hit by the free distribution as bad as music industry. This is because a major portion of their money comes from people going to cinema to see the movies. They don't do that because they don't have a copy at home, but because they wish to see it in a big screen with awsome sound effects. And that is something we just don't have yet in every house - and something that will be a big investment for a long time. And digitilizing will reduce movie makers costs for transferring the movies to the theaters as well, giving them another edge there. That allows one to go for a global premiers and gather enough payers in the first week to pay for the movie. Now music industry has concentrated in bringing music to peoples homes, and they will be in trouble when people start getting all their music from internet for free. There are nice ways of getting around this as well, as some have pointed around - market will provide... -- Mikko "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all And in the Darkness bind them."

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Re: Markets (was Re: Hayek was right. Twice.)
by jamesd＠echeque.com 04 Jul '02

04 Jul '02

-- On 4 Jul 2002 at 1:26, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > But try constructing an Independence Day without Will Smith. Or > the special effects. Or the soundtrack. Or the distribution > chain. Try guaranteeing that it arrives on schedule without > making a loss. I think you will not be able to accomplish that > with a volunteer effort. Try doing that tens of thousands of > times a year (that's for all of what is currently covered by IP) > and you're bound to fail. Unlike with Linux, the individual > parts of most larger projects involving IP are of no use without > the surrounding whole. Unlike Linux, many IP products aren't > modular, reusable or decomposable, and so they can only exist if > you can find a single source of financing for the whole project. > In the case of modular projects, you can rely on overlapping > interests to fill in the voids, but most projects aren't like > that. Especially if all that the creator gets is the > ever-diminishing value of a single copy. Increasingly the locations of big blockbuster movies exist inside a computer, so a substantial reduction in finance would reduce, rather than end the genre. Again, If you offered the average guy the deal "Would you like on demand access to all movies and television shows ever made, even if it meant fewer and lower budget movie releases in future?", I think most people would go for on demand access to everything. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gWZBRbSRNDjGq8+KjaoqOPxgT5lZ2F9LX2ocm0bc 2zgr4eTiKCozbQHScUv6yEqK35dT0WvEzOV/Rd8Fp

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03 Jul '02

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by edwardk＠msn.com 03 Jul '02

03 Jul '02

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