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Re: biological systems and cryptography
by Tim May 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

On Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 04:50 AM, <jya(a)pipeline.com> wrote: > What's the latest news on Adelman's cryptological > soup? Once his DNA crypto was touted as a > substantial breakthrough for crypto, though since > overshadowed by quantum crypto smoke-blowing. > > http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/crypto/1999-q4/0257.html No serious person could have believed that even a swimming pool full of Adleman's DNA would have made a dent in crypto. I know I discussed this shortly after the publicity about Adleman's work hit. Check the archives. I don't think you'll find any of us, or any cryptographers, arguing that it was "substantial breakthrough for crypto." If you do, please post. > > Isn't it a given that crypto is never free of > smoke-blowing -- for unbreakability or weakness? Silly words. > On the Internet and the Intelnet and NSAnet there > are no secure messages, only the illusion. > More silliness. --Tim May "As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later convinces himself." -- David Friedman

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Re: QM, EPR, A/B
by Tyler Durden 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

Actually, Tyler Durden (ie, me) wrote what is attributed to the generic anonymous name of Norman Nescio. Anyway,... >Part of the problem is that the detection equipment is many fermions >looking at single particles. I think QM is easier to understand when >looking at an ion trap. There are lots of photons around for every atom >but the interactions are with fields and the detection is of single >photons (again with massive amounts of equipment, but the atoms don't >interact directly as in EPR or double slit). With all due respect, Pooey Dr Mike. Take a nice, straightforward EPR using two correlated photons produced by KDP-downconversion. How do you exaplain the EPR experiements where pairs of photons are created via KDP downconversion? The two particles are separated at birth and travel through different paths through the apparatus. (And this apparatus can be made aribtrarily large.) If the apparatus does not permit us to determine the path of any single photon, the two photons will have completely coupled measureables (eg, polarization) at the output. The moment will are able to determine the path of ONE of the photons, then the measureable of the other becomes completely de-correlated from the other. This is true on the single photon level, and looked at up close its pretty startling. Now the odd thing (if this isn't odd already), is that we can (and have) perform the change from isolatable to nonisolatable AFTER THE PHOTONS HAVE ENTERED THE APPARATUS. (This was suggested by Wheeler and done around '94 as I remember). In a sense, then, the photons are 'aware' of events happening (relatively speaking) backwards in time. And this is not theoretical. It was predicted via quantum theory and seen in the lab many times. Now obviously we could step back and say that "QM is a useful computational tool. Let's not worry about reality", but that's an intellectual dodge. Classical physics grew up around the desire to understand natural reality, and this "new" fad of ignoring what QM says about reality only arose as a way to move QM forward in the early days. Look, it's not like we say "Don't think of light as an electromagnetic wave. E-M theory is merely a useful computational tool". Likewise just because we are in the odd situation of not knowing what QM says about the universe doesn't mean its not saying anything, or that what its saying is of no interest. With EPR (and, arguably, A-b), we are confronted with obvious "proof" that these particles communicate in ways that are completely different from the models developed prior to 1910 or so. (One of the few intelligent thoughts I've had on the subject is that the particles are still a single quantum object prior to measurement.) With respect to Cypherpunks and cryptography, then, we would be intellectually hypocritical if we thought there was anything inherently more secure about quantum cryptography. But we (I mean, pretty much every working physicist in the world) DO believe this, because this is really the way reality "works". Wavefunction collapse actually "objectively" (if that's the right word in the quantum world) happens and there's no undoing it. It's a basic physical property of the universe. With respect to many worlds, David Deutch, et al have argued that for any single path taken by a particle in a quantum there are innumerable "shadow photons" in the other universes that communicate with the observed photon. We also see just one possible but the complete collection of shadow photons take all possible outcomes. Now while I don't really buy this explanation, I DO buy Deutch's desire to find a picture of the underlying reality (we once spoke on this issue and wildly agreed). I could go on but I've got work to do. No one's actually read this far anyway, have they? -Tyler Durden > >QM is a nice model that works. It is a good mathematical description of >observed phenomena. What else do we need? The idea that a photon >"passes thru" one slit or the other is just a model. What is the slit? >It's really a whole bunch of fermions in a spacial pattern, and when an >electron or photon interacts with that distribution we get the observed >"self interaction" result. The model is self interaction. That may have >nothing to do with reality. > >Patience, persistence, truth, >Dr. mike _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=74… http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmoresp…

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Re: constant encryped stream
by Thomas Shaddack 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

> Isn't the obvious way to handle this to include an undeveloped > (latent image) photograph of some obscure object, person, or place on > the film rather than just a blank film ? ? You could then develop it > and check for light damage and evidence of lack of authenticity. I > suspect there are tricks involving calibrated exposures of objects with > known optical power ratios (a kind of hidden grey scale strip) or even > holograms superimposed on normal looking photographs of scenes that > might be rather hard to easily duplicate by developing the latent image > and making either an optical or contact print of it on a similar medium. The hologram trick is very interesting; could cause a lot of problems for the adversary. Now the question remains, how to make a hologram within the resources of a common person, to make the system suitable for wide use, not only for a handful of high-tech geeks with closets full of cutting-edge gears. Also, how to make sure the image got properly exposed, so it couldn't happen that a mistake of the sender couldn't result in a false alarm. (Maybe to develop part (half, stripe...) of the image and then check under the red light, before using?) The issue starts to look more complicated than it seemed on the first glance. We have a resourceful adversary, who will quickly learn the tricks. We need a low-tech technology that will be highly resistant against undetected tampering by the adversary. Does anyone know if this wasn't already being solved during the Wars, or the Cold War? I am pretty sure many embassies had problems with adversaries going through their diplomatic mail.

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happy new year
by danny tang 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

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US Airways E-Savers to Rome and Madrid
by ESavers＠usairways.com 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

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Mail Delivery Problem
by Mail Delivery Subsystem 03 Jan '03

03 Jan '03

Sorry cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM. Your mail to the following recipients could not be delivered because they are not accepting mail with attachments or embedded images: dtgames

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Re: FC: Will this column land me in federal prison under the DMCA?
by Steve Schear 02 Jan '03

02 Jan '03

At 10:52 AM 1/2/2003 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote: >http://news.com.com/2010-1028-978636.html > > Perspective: Will this land me in jail? > By Declan McCullagh > December 23, 2002, 4:00 AM PT > > WASHINGTON--It's not every day that I fret about committing a string > of federal felonies that could land me in prison until sometime in > 2008. It seems that in the interest of having a cute story to write you've boxedourself in the corner so you needn't provide anything really useful to your readers. Why didn't you just anonymously post the passwords in alt.anonymous or send it to John Young and tell your readers a little birdie told me? Sheesh! steve

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QM, Bell's Inequality and Quantum Cryptosystems
by Anonymous 02 Jan '03

02 Jan '03

"Easy, the particles are correlated at birth. *they* know what their orientation is, it is fixed at birth. The math says *we* don't know." No. Bell's inequality tells us that there are no "hidden variables". It's not that we don't know the value of the measureable prior to wavefunction collapse...the specific measureable doesn't exist prior to wavefunction collapse. When Bell formulated the testable inequality circa 1980, and then it was experimentally violated (the inequality, that is, not the theory behind it), it became accepted within physics that (as expected) wavefunction collapse determines (right then and there) the value of observables, forcing the universe to choose, according to the probabilities. (Of course, this was basically understood from QM's beginnings, but prior to John Bell's work we couldn't actually test that this was reality.) (I would argue that this was one of the necessary conceptual pieces needed for people to trust the notion of quantum cryptography.) Taking a measurement (whether acidentally or on purpose) forces the quantum system to "choose" instantaneously. Einstein understood this aspect of Quantum Mechanics so well that he and 'P' and 'R' concocted the EPR gedanken to show that this implies what is effectively "action at a distance"...the different pieces of a quantum system, even far removed, spontaneously 'know' about the other parts. (In fact, I would bet that Einstein's original complaints about QM's action-at-a-distance may have been what prompted the reactionary fad of 'well, QM is merely a useful calculational tool...) But in the end, as strange and unreasonable as this action-at-a-distance may be, it's now regularly seen in the laboratory. (Even wierder are the 'quantum eraser' and other bizarre behaviors). -TD

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Re: Nevada Supreme Court rules suspect must give police ID
by Anonymous 02 Jan '03

02 Jan '03

On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:26:40 -0500, you wrote: > > http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Dec-21-Sat-2002/news/20327620.h… > > > Las Vegas Review Journal > > Saturday, December 21, 2002 > Hiibel refused to identify himself during a May 2000 stop just outside of > Winnemucca because he did not believe he did anything wrong. After Dove > asked him 11 times to produce identification, Hiibel was arrested. The law > requires people to identify themselves to police when ordered to do so. > Hiibel later was convicted in district court of resisting and obstructing a > police officer in carrying out his duties. He appealed that verdict -- and > a fine of $320 -- to the Supreme Court. So if you are sitting on a public park bench in Nevada, with no ID that you can "produce" on your person, and you so inform an officer asking you for ID, are you now guilty of "resisting and obstructing a police officer" in the state of Nevada? Should you wear your ID with a neck chain, when showering, for example, to avoid the possibility of "resisting and hindering", or would it be reasonable to simply wait for your chip implantation? We need to remember that police officers are not here to protect our freedom, rather we are here to protect their safety, and we just have to accept the destruction of the Bill of Rights and other risks, so they can be safer. We must understand that police don't exist to make us safe, rather we exist to make police safe. Do we get a badge or something? Bagpipes playing when they shoot the remaining tatters of the 6th amendment? Home of the surveilled, land of the cowards, God bless America. Please tune into your TV now for the next Homeland Security threat warning. Be afraid.

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Re: biological systems and cryptography
by Michael Cardenas 02 Jan '03

02 Jan '03

On Tue, Dec 31, 2002 at 12:23:51PM -0800, Tim May wrote: > On Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 11:41 AM, Michael Cardenas wrote: > > >How do you all see the future use of biologically based systems > >affecting cryptography in general? > > > >By biologically based systems I mean machine learning, genetic > >algorithms, chips that learn (like Carver Mead's work), neural > >networks, vecor support machines, associative memory, etc. > > Strong crypto is, ipso facto, resistant to all of the above. For the > obvious reason that the specific solution to a cipher is like a Dirac > delta function (a spike) rising above a featureless plain, this in > terms of the usual hill-climbing or landscape-learning models which all > of the above use in one form or another. > People do break cyphers, by finding weaknesses in them. Are you saying that you think that current cyphers are unbreakable? Also, what about using biological systems to create strong cyphers, not to break them? > Cryptanalysis of weak crypto, in terms of mundane things like > passphrase guessing, finding images tagged with stego code, etc., > already in some cases makes use of these tools. Bob Baldwin's > Crytpographer's Workbench used learning algorithms a long time ago. > > Strong math wins out over weak crypto any day, and attempting to brute > force a cipher with even a swimming pool full of Adleman machines will > not work: if a 400-digit number takes, for instance, a million Pentium > 4 years to brute force factor, then how long does a 600-digit number > take? > > (And using larger RSA moduli is of course trivial...) > > Homework: Using the estimates Schneier, Diffie, Hellman, and others > have made for the number of computer operations to break ciphers of > various kinds, describe a reasonable cipher and modulus or key length > which will take more energy than there is in the entire universe to > break. The answer, in terms of how small the key or modulus is, may > surprise you. > It seems that all of these analyses assume that an instruction is a single mathematical operation in a turing machine. What if each operation was something else? I refuse to believe that the human mind is just a turing machine. -- michael cardenas | lead software engineer, lindows.com hyperpoem.net | GNU/Linux software developer people.debian.org/~mbc | encrypted email preferred "It is as hard to see one's self as to look backwards without turning around." - Henry David Thoreau [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

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