December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

EU Privacy Directive
by David Watts 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Deadline for EU Data Privacy Law Prompts Worry Among Businesses By JENNIFER L. SCHENKER and JULIE WOLF Special to THE WALL STREET JOURNAL The mounds of data that zap electronically across borders may face some travel restrictions as a European Union law takes effect this week. Three years of talks between the EU and the U.S. have failed to find a compromise on how to protect the privacy of data, and that has businesses and consumer groups worried. The issue arose in 1995, when Citibank Deutschland AG came under attack for a co-branded credit-card program with Deutsche Bahn AG. The program, Germany's data police decided, invaded the privacy of citizens because the sign-up questionnaire was too nosy and the data was processed in the U.S. The bank made headlines by offering to allow Germany's data police to come to the U.S. to inspect its data-processing arrangements. Citibank solved its problems in Germany, but the European Commission reasoned national data regulators couldn't possibly travel to the U.S. to verify the compliance of all of the companies in Europe that send personal data abroad for processing. Instead, the commission passed a law that gave national data regulators wide powers to control what type of data can be processed abroad and let them halt exports of personal data to countries that don't have adequate protection, such as the U.S. EU member states were given three years to institute necessary changes. Intensified Negotiations Businesses panicked at the prospect of having data flows cut off, databases erased and huge fines levied. Negotiations intensified between Europe and the U.S., which planned to ensure data protection mainly through industry self-regulation. Three years later, just days before the deadline, a solution has yet to be found, and Citibank and other multinationals doing business in Europe are back in the headlines again, the targets of privacy advocates who want to inspect transborder data flows. At issue is how U.S. companies operating in Europe can send data back to the U.S. without running afoul of strict new EU legislation on data protection. The issue won't be settled before the legislation goes into effect Oct. 25 although U.S. and EU officials say they are hopeful enough progress has been made to ensure that companies won't see their data flows interrupted on Oct. 26. "The message to business should be don't panic," advised Francis Aldhouse, deputy data-protection registrar at the U.K.'s office of data protection. "Nothing great and dramatic" is going to happen this week when the directive goes into force, he said. Threat of Legal Action But uncertainty abounds, and big companies in Europe are worried they could face legal action from a variety of quarters, including Privacy International, a Washington, D.C.-based watchdog group that plans to increase its activities in Europe. "This is not a deal that can be cut between the White House and Brussels," said Simon Davies, Privacy International's director. "The data-protection directive establishes new constitutional rights in Europe and gives us a mandate to move forward." Between now and Jan. 15, Privacy International will meet with 25 multinational corporations and government agencies it has identified. The group wants to examine data flows through available public records to determine whether these companies are in compliance with the new laws. At the moment all personal data gathered from European clients that is processed outside the EU is suspect. Hong Kong, Quebec and New Zealand are the exceptions because they have received the commission's stamp of approval for providing adequate protection. Only three EU countries are expected to meet the commission's Oct. 25 deadline for implementing the data-protection directive -- Italy, Greece and Finland. "Business can not live with such uncertainty," said Mark Loliver, legal adviser to the European Federation of Direct Marketing. Possible Solutions Solutions on the table include: 1. Setting up safe harbors, a compromise that would allow U.S. companies operating in Europe to ship data back to the U.S. even though the U.S. itself won't get the European Commission's stamp of approval for adequate protection. The U.S. Commerce Department would issue principles on data privacy, and companies agreeing to abide by these would be allowed to transfer data from Europe to the U.S. 2. Drawing up model contracts between companies operating in Europe and those that process data overseas. The foreign companies would have to commit to meeting Europe's data privacy standards. 3. Implementing new software solutions that are designed to allow companies that handle personal information about consumers to meet privacy requirements. Both the U.S. and EU have shifted considerably from their original positions. The commission is no longer insisting that the U.S. adopt national data-protection legislation. And the U.S. now concedes that consumers should be able to complain to an independent group about a company's behavior. The commission will have to get the support of member states for any compromise at two meetings this month, the first of which will be held Monday. Model Contract Meanwhile the International Chamber of Commerce, British Federation of Business and a number of other organizations are jointly working on a model contract that could be drawn up between a company operating in Europe and the company which processes data for it abroad, said Colin Fricker, director of legal affairs at the U.K.'s Direct Marketing Association and a member of the model contract working party of the Confederation of British Industry. Separately, some companies hope to tackle the problem with technological solutions. NCR Inc., a Dayton, Ohio, data-warehousing specialist said that beginning in January it will build in new software features that will allow the auditing of computer databases to ensure compliance with government data privacy regulations. Its clients include financial institutions and retailers. For its part, Privacy International says neither model contracts or technological solutions offer adequate protection. "Companies in the U.S. continue to maintain that industry code of practice and privacy-enhancing technology afford protection and it does not -- it is a very tiny step in the right direction," said Privacy International's Mr. Davies. "The message we want to give the U.S. is why are you following an outdated libertarian philosophy when you know it is going to cost you dearly." _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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"Microsoft is racist"
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/15702.html On the sidewalk in front of the building, a handful of protesters held up a sign saying "Microsoft is racist." The group attacked the company for not donating money to Howard University, which is predominately black.

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Your New Adobe Customer Number
by Adobe Systems 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Thank you for registering with Adobe Systems, Inc. Your new Online Customer ID is: 2202094119525317 The PIN you entered and confirmed has been encrypted and stored with your registration information. Please remember your Customer ID and PIN for the next time you login as an Adobe Customer on www.adobe.com.

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17 Dec '03

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NEW SECURE INFO MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
by info＠tcii.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Dorkslayers..
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text From: steven.soroka(a)mts.mb.ca X-Lotus-FromDomain: MTS To: coderpunks(a)toad.com Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: Dorkslayers.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-coderpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk You'll notice that toad.com is on the dorkslayers list, (under ip 140.174.2.1).. It'd advisable to find a way to remove it.. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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IP: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT)
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:39:27 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Forwarded: ---------------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:44:43 -0700 From: "A.C." <angie(a)computerhut.net> Subject: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) BELOW IS A SITE WORTH VISITING AND DESERVING OF CAREFUL STUDY, as the US military has made it clear in its numerous documents, that a considerable segment of the US population is suspect, and a sizable number are of the "warrior classes," hence must be contained. Machiavelli, a shrewd military strategist, understood well the strategies for keeping the balance of power and, thus, advised the princes of Renaissance Italy, which at that time were a collection of powerful city-states, always at war with each other. Machiavelli's strategies AND PHILOSOPHIES, have been, still are, the subject of SERIOUS study by US military strategists. "He [the prince or any ruler] must, therefore, never raise his thought from this exercise of war, and in peacetime, he must train himself more than in time of war; this can be done in two ways: one by action, the other by the mind. And as far as actions are concerned, besides keeping his soldiers well disciplined and trained, he must always be out hunting, and must accustom his body to hardships in this manner; and HE MUST ALSO LEARN THE NATURE OF THE TERRAIN, AND KNOW HOW MOUNTAINS SLOPE, HOW VALLEYS OPEN, HOW PLAINS LIE, AND UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF RIVERS AND SWAMPS; [emphasis ac] and he should devote much attention to such activities. ... and a Prince who lacks this ability lacks the most important quality in a leader; because this skill teaches you to find the enemy, choose a campsite, lead troops, organize them for battle, and besiege towns to your own advantage." .... Therefore, a prince must not worry about the reproach of cruelty when it is a matter of keeping his subjects united and loyal; ......." The Prince, by Machiavelli. > >http://earthops.org/sovereign/urban_warfare/ >Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) FM 90-10 Headquarters Department of Army Washington, DC, 15 August 1979 FM 90-10 Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) Table of Contents CHAPTER 1... INTRODUCTION Urbanization Characteristics of Urban Warfare CHAPTER 2... OFFENSE How the Enemy Defends Planning the Attack The Offensive Battle Corps Division Brigade Battalion Task Force CHAPTER 3... DEFENSE How the Enemy Attacks Planning the Defense The Defensive Battle Corps Division Brigade Battalion Task Force CHAPTER 4... COMBAT SUPPORT Field Artillery Engineer Army Aviation Tactical Air Air Defense Military Police Chemical Communications CHAPTER 5... COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT Support Organization Logistical Functions Noncombatants Civil Affairs Operations Refugee Control APPENDIX A... Urban Terrain Analysis APPENDIX B... Weapons Effects And Employment APPENDIX C... How To Select And Prepare Defensive Positions In Built-Up Areas APPENDIX D... Employment Of Obstacles And Mines In Built-Up Areas APPENDIX E... Demolitlons APPENDIX F... Armored Forces In Built-Up Area APPENDIX G... How To Attack And Clear Building APPENDIX H... References And International Agreements **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

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IP: [FP] National ID back on table?
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: [FP] National ID back on table? Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:52:36 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Forwarded: --------------- From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds(a)airnet.net> Subject: [FP] National ID back on table? Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 07:05:28 -0500 SCAN THIS NEWS MONDAY OCTOBER 19, 1998 National ID back on table? Weekend maneuvers in Congress may kill moratorium http://www.worldnetdaily.com/exclusiv/981019_national_id_back_o.shtml By David M. Bresnahan Copyright 1998, WorldNetDaily.com Last-minute deals on Capitol Hill may remove a previously negotiated moratorium on the national ID card, and one organization opposed to the card is not surprised or disappointed. The law was already passed by Congress in 1996 and a national ID for all Americans will soon be in use unless changes to the law are made soon. The omnibus appropriations bill contained a ban on the national ID, first exposed in WorldNetDaily, but over the weekend efforts were made to remove that ban. A great many bills were never voted on during the year. With elections just around the corner, politicians want to go home to their districts and brag about something they've done this past year. The omnibus bill contains thousands of pages, including many pet projects intended to win votes. The main purpose of the bill, negotiated last week and scheduled for a vote tomorrow, is to approve the budget and keep government in business. Prior to the negotiations last week, all sides were predicting a shut-down of government over disagreements in the budget. No one in Congress wants to explain to voters why government has come to a grinding halt just before an election, so the passage of the omnibus bill is assured, along with anything else attached to it. "There are so many deals that have been made and are still being made that no one will ever know exactly what's in that thing and what's not until long after the vote is over and the members all go home to campaign," explained a congressional aide who did not wish to be named. The moratorium was first included in the transportation appropriations bill, but Rep. Lamar Smith, R-TX, convinced Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-GA, to remove it before passage, according to House Transportation Committee sources. The ban on the national ID was then included the omnibus bill. However, Smith has continued to make efforts to kill the provision, according to a congressional source who has been working on the ban. "It's very hard to say just what will happen, but I do know that Smith has recruited help from some other members and the Speaker is considering their requests," said the source yesterday. It was Smith who got the national ID ban out of the transportation appropriations bill. "It was reported that Lamar Smith had obtained an agreement from Speaker Gingrich to eliminate this provision from the bill," reported Patrick Poole of the Free Congress Foundation. The ban was back in the bill "after many House members openly complained to the speaker about Lamar Smith's seemingly religious devotion to the national ID idea and the American peoples vehement opposition to being branded and tagged by the U.S. government," explained Poole. Numerous organizations opposed to the concept of a national ID rallied their members to send thousands of letters, faxes, and make phone calls to Congress for the past two weeks. Rep. Smith could not be reached on Sunday night by WorldNetDaily, but he did publish a letter in the Washington Times last Tuesday because of the many calls his office received. "I do not support a national ID card and don't know anyone in Congress who does," said Smith in his letter. He tried to label those voicing opposition as radicals when he added, "There are fringe groups that believe the United Nations is taking over Yellowstone National Park, that Congress is creating a national ID card or that they have been abducted by UFOs." The law to create a national ID card was passed as part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. One section of the act requires all states to make their driver's licenses comply with certain guidelines found in Section 656 (b) of the act, including the use of the Social Security Number on all licences and in all data bases beginning Oct. 1, 2000. The act also calls for digitized biometric information to be a part of each license, or "smart card." The biometric information will include fingerprints, retina scans, DNA prints, and other similar information. Responsibility for the design and implementation of the cards has been given to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the Department of Transportation. That agency has recently published the proposed "Driver's License/SSN/National Identification Document," which contains the guidelines which must be in force by each state -- a federal mandate once campaigned against by many conservative Republicans. "These new national ID regulations violate every notion of federalism, because they force states to comply with regulations issued by the federal government without any constitutional authority to do so," said Poole recently. "Nor are federal agencies empowered to force states to gather detailed information on every person in order to comply with federal mandates. The net result of the DOT's regulations is to establish a national ID system, which has been opposed by almost every non-governmental sector for the past five decades." House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-TX, Rep. Ron Paul, R-TX, and Rep. Bob Barr, R-GA, have been working on repeal legislation, but there was insufficient time to bring it to a vote during this session of Congress. The DOT solicited public comments on their plans for implementation of Section 656 (b) of the act earlier this year. The public comment period has just closed and many thousands of letters in opposition were received, according to a spokesman. Five states also expressed opposition to the plan, and only a "small number" of letters supporting the plan were known to the spokesman, who spoke on condition that his name would not be published. One group that has worked diligently for the repeal of the national ID card was not surprised to learn of plans to remove the ban from the omnibus bill. "I won't be terribly disappointed if the one-year moratorium is removed from the appropriations bill. In fact, if left in, the moratorium may actually serve to provide an unwelcomed delay in this issue being addressed by Congress and the DOT," said Scott McDonald leader of "Fight the Fingerprint." McDonald says his group will use the situation to educate more people regardless of which way the bill ends up. He is concerned that national debate on the national ID will be delayed by the ban and would lessen the chances to get the law repealed. McDonald wants the debate to begin now. "Time is on the side of the proponents of the national ID. Opposition to any issue tends to wane as time passes. The American people have already firmly stated their strong opposition to the DOT's proposed standardized driver's license proposal. Now it's time for the DOT to act on behalf of the people they serve. The DOT should go back to Congress with a report stating that the American people do not want a national ID which the 1996 immigration law would establish via standardized driver's licenses," explained McDonald on Sunday. McDonald's group is opposed to the use of Social Security numbers from being used as past of driver's licences and in centralized government databases tied to driver's licenses and other government documents. His group is also opposed to the use of fingerprints on such records. In the event there is a moratorium on the implementation of the National ID, McDonald predicts there will be a good chance the DOT will design a compromise which will keep Social Security numbers off licences but keep the number on license applications and in universal data bases to keep track of individuals. Without a moratorium, a report must be provided by DOT detailing the responses they received from the public on the issue. McDonald wants Congress to see that report as soon as possible. "Without the temporary reprieve, the DOT is required by law to respond to all public comments which have been filed with the agency, and to publish their responses in the Federal Register," said McDonald. "I am anxious to see their responses. If the moratorium goes into effect, the DOT may be able to avoid this mandatory requirement. The American people deserve to be know what the DOT's official position is in response to the objections raised by those individuals and groups who took the time to object." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can call the capitol toll free at........1-800-378-1844 Lamar Smith..................................1-202-225-4236 Speaker Gingrich.............................1-202-225-0600 ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: <fingerprint(a)networkusa.org> ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to <majordomo(a)efga.org> and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

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IP: Brave New World of Implants
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: Brave New World of Implants Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:42:06 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Source: Jewish World Review / Oct. 19,1998 / 29 Tishrei, 5759 http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0798/mothernature.html Can we 'fool Mother Nature'? Do we want to? By David S. Oderberg IMAGINE THAT YOU have been fitted with a tiny electronic device, measuring nearly an inch long and a third of an inch wide. This device receives and emits radio waves in the presence of transceivers in 'intelligent' buildings fitted to recognize the unique signal emanating from the tiny 'smart' chip in your body. This chip, implanted just under the skin on your arm, has immense advantages. With it you can open and close doors, pass through security channels set up to recognize your identity, operate machines such as computers and faxes, and generally negotiate your technological world with greater ease and convenience than at present. You can even use your chip to carry out daily commerce. Swipe your arm over a scanner and you can make payments, have your account debited automatically, check you bank balance. In short, you can do everything which currently requires you to lug around a walletful of credit cards. One small catch, though: because of this chip, your whereabouts are known to others at every minute of every day. You can be tracked like a car or airplane. Orwellian nightmare? Delusional apocalyptic fantasy? One would have thought so, until it emerged in the British press a short while ago that Kevin Warwick, professor of cybernetics at the University of Reading -- my own university, as a matter of fact -- has decided to try out such a scenario on himself. Seeing himself as a latter day Edward Jenner -- the pioneering scientist who tried out the smallpox vaccine on his own body -- Prof. Warwick has entered the hallowed halls of self-experimentation by having just such a silicon chip injected under the skin near his elbow. He is, as far as anyone knows, the first person to do so. The results of his experiment are not yet known. He has to take antibiotics against the risk of infection, and is a little concerned his body will reject the alien device. Speaking of the doctor who agreed to implant the chip, Prof. Warwick says: "If it all goes wrong and my arm explodes, which I have been warned could happen, my wife will probably sue...". The good professor is, nevertheless, sanguine about the possible side effects. For he sees himself as a crusader at the cutting edge of cybertechnology. Already famous for his little machines -- looking a bit like cockroaches on wheels -- which, he glows, behave for all the world as though they have intelligence (something I and others doubted when we saw them in action), Prof. Warwick is thrusting forward in the attempt to fulfil the prophecy of his own recent best-seller, March of the Machines. "It is possible," he says, "for machines to become more intelligent than humans in the reasonably near future. Machines will then become the dominant life form on earth." Is this a tragedy? No, he adds blithely: "We are just an animal, not much better or worse than the other animals. We have our uses [sic], because we are different. We are slightly more intelligent than the other animals." The professor looks forward to the day when machines rule our lives. The fact that his microchip enables him to be traced is no great worry. His secretary finds it a boon: "It was often hard to find Prof. Warwick...but since the implant we always know where he is." And so would your employer if you were similarly implanted. You would be monitored every time you clocked in and out of work, or left the workplace. Prof. Warwick surmises the chip could carry all sorts of information, such as medical records, past convictions, financial data. "It is quite possible for an implant to replace an Access or Visa card. There is very little danger in losing an implant or having it stolen," he said. But it seems Prof. Warwick is alive to the dangers of the microchip implant: "I know all this smacks of Big Brother," he comments. Where the technology will ultimately go "I really don't know and would not like to envisage." By now, you may well be feeling a little spooked. This is not surprising. Nor should the experiment itself be such a shock. After all, on October 11th 1993, The Washington Times reported on the "high-tech national tattoo" made by Hughes Aircraft Company --- an implantable transponder which the company called "an ingenious, safe, inexpensive, foolproof and permanent method of ... identification using radio waves." In 1994, in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, it was reported that a local humane society offered pet owners, for $25, to inject their dogs or cats with a microchip, to prevent their being lost or stolen. A Dr. Carl Sanders, electronics engineer and inventor of the Intelligent Manned Interface biochip, told the Monetary Economic Review that satellites could be used to track people fitted with the IMI chip: "We used this with military personnel in the Iraq war where they were actually tracked using this particular type of device." Whether soldiers have actually 'volunteered' to be surgically implanted with the chip, as opposed to carrying it on their clothing, is not made clear by Dr. Sanders. But what we do know is that proponents of this technology envisage first using it on animals (now widespread, particularly dogs, cats and cattle), then prisoners (more effective than electronic ankle tags), then children (e.g., newborn babies, so as to prevent their being switched or lost) and elderly people suffering from Alzheimer's disease (to prevent their wandering and getting lost). After that, who knows? The potential for the chips to replace credit cards and cash is huge, and will tempt financial institutions in turn to tempt their customers to 'try out' the chip with no obligation to carry it permanently, and monetary rewards for those who persevere. Supporters of the injectible microchip say it is just the logical extension of a technology that already allows the heavy monitoring of people through pagers, cellular phones, 'smart' cards, and cars fitted with Global Positioning System transponders. On the other hand, could it not be said that the advent of the chip implant is the final outrage which demonstrates the inherent unacceptability of its technological ancestors? We are, it seems, fast approaching a world that even George Orwell was not able to envisage. Had the microchip implant been known in his day there can be no doubt it would have replaced the 'telescreen' in his dystopian novel 1984. The fact that the corporations and individuals promoting its use are not being bombarded daily with protests from millions of outraged citizens is itself cause for wonder. How, particularly in countries such as the USA and Britain in which civil liberties are so prized, is it possible for so much propaganda to reach the mass media with barely a hint of contrary opinion? Prof. Warwick has gained enormous publicity, and is flooded with calls from journalists wanting to know how his little experiment is going. Until, however, a sufficient number of citizens make known their implacable opposition to the totalitarian trend of a technology which threatens to reduce most humans to the status of cattle, the likes of Prof. Warwick will go about their evil work unperturbed. JWR contributor Dr. David S. Oderberg is Lecturer in Philosophy at the University of Reading, England, and a freelance journalist. ©1998, David S. Oderberg ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

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My citizenship renunciation made difficult
by Vincent Cate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My Barbados Embassy/Consulate contact Steve Steger (246) 228 4338 called me up and told me that the state department has not approved my renunciation - they say one of the forms the Barbados guys had me fill out is old. For those just tuning in, I renounced my citizenship to be free of US laws on cryptography. While I was at the Consulate they had me fill out a 1st set of forms, then said those were obsolete (a few years back) and after waiting around for hours they had me fill out a 2nd set of forms that they said was the current version. I filled out and signed everything they gave me. They then had an interview with several witnesses. They took my US passport and gave me copies of the 2nd version of all the forms with my signatures and theirs on them. Now Steve says that I am supposed to travel down to Barbados again using up my time and my money because of their error to do a 3rd version of their forms. Both the time and the money make this a hardship. They won't mail me this 3rd version of the forms and they won't pay for my trip (let alone time). It seems to me that since I told the New York times that I renounced my US citizenship, and they told the world, that it should be a done deal. Also, spending a day in the Consulate signing everything they gave me should be enough to do it. And why is a form saying basically "I renounce my citizenship" that worked awhile back not effective today? But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong. The people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects. Free means free to leave. Any advice? -- Vince ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vincent Cate Offshore Information Services Vince(a)Offshore.com.ai http://www.offshore.com.ai/ Anguilla, BWI http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You have to take life as it happens, but you should try to make it happen the way you want to take it. - German Proverb

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