December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > No Netscape on NT or 95/98 is no where near as stable as > on a Linux or Solaris box (the two that I use most). Correct me if I am wrong or if this has changed since they went open-source, but AFAIK Mozilla's Windows and Unix codebases were entirely independent and separately developed, so I'm not sure what conclusions you can draw from that. > Yep, that explains why my NT's have to be rebooted almost daily > because of various issues and my various unix boxes go for weeks Again, let's leave the OS wars off this list. I've had NT machines up for several months and down only for patches and upgrades. But Netscape pissed me off so severely during the version 2.x plethora of releases with their alpha-quality javascript that I've not used it since, so I cannot comment on its current [in]stability. Matt

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > > Lightly? You jest. > > No I don't. I can start a business for as little as $15 to > register a DBA and I don't need licenses or other sorts of > regulatory permissions. And you would be stupid to expose yourself to full liability. Regulation includes much more than licensing and registration. Try hiring a couple employees, paying freelance individuals, setup office space, get yourself a company car and do your fed income taxes. Lightly regulated my ass. If they enforced every word of every code strongly and literally it would be nearly impossible to conduct business. > No we shouldn't. The fact that monopolies can exist in this > lightly regulated economy is ample evidence Bullshit, monopolies exist because of the regulation. > If you seriously think this is a heavily regulated market you > should do more research into such places as Nazi Germany, > Russia, China, etc. Bullshit again, there is a *big* difference between a regulated market (mixed capitalist/socialist economy) and a command economy. So because we don't live in Soviet Russia we should all bend over and take it? > Monopolies are monopolies, claiming that they will be less > abusive in a regulated market than in a free-market just Coercive power takes form via regulation. Without it a bad monopoly is a short-lived one. > You are claiming that if we do away with the food > regulations that McDonalds will be *more* concerned > about their meat being cooked thoroughly then you Liability, liability, liability. Regulation often promotes bad practice as businesses comply with minimum regulation and nothing more instead of thinking for themselves. What is worse is government often shields companies from liability. > If a market monopolizes there is *NO* competition. How do you prevent potential competition? Monopoly means both the absence of existing and potential competition and alternatives. > If the market is one that takes a large investment in > intellectual or capital materials then there > won't be any opportunity to even attempt to start a > competitive venture. A fluid capital market can finance even the largest of ventures if the potential return is there. Different markets have different time schedules, but competition can and will come. Intellectual Property enforcement is an act of government, it is a force monopoly, only just and reasonable IP laws limit it. Notice that, bad laws = bad monopoly, good laws = balanced environment, no laws = no monopoly. The last of which is not necessarily preferable in this case, and is a fundamental difference in laissez-faire Vs anarchy. > Fairness is about the consumer, not the manufacturer. You have an odd definition of fair. You cannot have fair for the benefit of one at the expense of another. > Contractual with who? With whomever is a part of the framework. > > reputation for punishment instead of life and liberty, > > Businesses are neither alive nor do they enjoy liberty. Don't > confuse people with systems and objects. No, do not strip the person from the businesses. A group of people do not lose any of the rights and liberty of a single individual, neither do they gain any. Businesses are people. Commerce is a fundamental right, in order to survive you must be able to create and dispose of that creation. The lack of the *individual's* right to freely and easily pursue any and all business pursuits to any degree is an act of enslavement of the individual to corporate aristocracy and bureaucratic whim. Matt

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17 Dec '03

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Why is the world not perfect?
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anonymous wrote: > Why, if the ignition-controllers of cars are > CPUs, aren't cars theftproof without a > crypto-token? The bastards (a term which collectively includes insurance companies, police, car manufacturers and a host of others) make vast amounts of money on the basis that your car is stolen regularly. Scheduled Disasters are good for business. Whoever it was who had the idea for a Y2K bug is currently minting it.

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RE: propose: `cypherpunks license' (Re: Wanted: Twofish source code)
by Brown, R Ken 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My computer alleges that Derek Atkins[SMTP:warlord@MIT.EDU] wrote: > The big issue I see with GPL and Crypto software is that with the > GPL you cannot add any redistribution restrictions. The problem > is that due to the United States export rules, I cannot export > Crypto software, which means I must legally put a restriction on > any Crypto code I write. But, this is a "further restriction" as far > as the GPL is concerned. This, in turn, means I cannot use the > GPL for Crypto software. Surely the way round this is to take the "batteries not included" route? Just use GPLed libraries or standalone modules. Or write your code in such a way that some modules are GPLed and some aren't. Sell your modules & tell people that they will need to get the GPL stuff through "normal channels". Of course, once outside the USA you are safe. Nobody *outside* the US cares much about your export restrictions or absurd ideas about patenting software anyway - although in many European countries, and certainly in UK, we take copyright a lot *more* seriously than you. Copyright is widely seen as a right, something that naturally belongs to the author or artist. In French law they even talk about right of "paternity" in a text (part of "Droit Moral") even if you assign copyright to another person you are still allowed to veto changes in it, your right is seen as inalienable, like the rights you have to your own person - copyright is part of personality, not property. (This has been partly imported into English law as a a right to be identified as the author, which has to be asserted, which you now nearly always do). In France but not in England they also recognise the right to withdraw a work (although for some reason Stanley Kubrick seems to have been able to withdraw the Clockwork Orange film in England, I don't understand how) and the right of access to a work (an artist is allowed access to a painting which has been sold to someone else). These things are seen as part of personality. Just as in the US the law won't allow you to sell yourself permanently to someone else (i.e. no slavery, even voluntary slavery) but only rent yourself out (employment) so in most of Europe you can't really "sell" copyright, only rent it out. But patents are to some extent seen as government interference, as licensed monopoly. They tend to be unpopular with everyone (except lawyers, inventors and pharmecutical companies of course). I suspect there are a lot of people who would have moral problems with breaking someone else's software copyright but wouldn't give a dam about breaking a software patent. An algorithm is an idea, and how can anyone own an idea? (I'm talking morals here, not law - intersecting universes of discourse, but not identical ones :-) Ken Brown (and not his employers who respect patents greatly and would sack me if I broke them at work. After all they own an awful lot of them...)

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I thought of an initialy regulated industry!...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, In regards the discussion about regulation and industry. I can think of only one industry that was regulated before the very first company opened their doors for business....nuclear power plants. Personaly, 3 Mile Island in a un-regulated industry scares the hell out of me...and I support nuclear power. Look at the fiasco of Chernobyl in a control market. I'd like to hear from any free market mavens who might want to use the nuclear industry as an example of how things could be so much better with no regulation regarding construction, operation, or waste disposal. "Hey Sammy, just through those spent pellets in with the trash, those stupid trash people don't know nothing...." ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:49:10 -0700 > > No Netscape on NT or 95/98 is no where near as stable as > > on a Linux or Solaris box (the two that I use most). > > Correct me if I am wrong or if this has changed since they went > open-source, but AFAIK Mozilla's Windows and Unix codebases were > entirely independent and separately developed, so I'm not sure what > conclusions you can draw from that. I'd say the obvious one, the Unix code tree is more stable than the MS tree. > Again, let's leave the OS wars off this list. I've had NT machines up > for several months and down only for patches and upgrades. As I have, but at nowhere near the load level that Unixes can support. To get even near-mark performance requires larger hard drives, faster processors, and way more ram (2x or more in many cases). ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 00:30:14 -0700 > And you would be stupid to expose yourself to full liability. No, being a single proprietorship isn't stupid. It may not be something you like but it isn't stupid. I will agree that depending on the size and type of business it isn't always the best way, but then being a multi-national incorporation isn't the best way to do local contract work for SOHO's (for example) either. > Regulation includes much more than licensing and registration. Try > hiring a couple employees, As long as it's only two I don't have to worry about federal regulations and such, they only kick in when I hire 3 or more. > paying freelance individuals, Hand them their 1099's and they're out the door. I just pay them whatever I agreed (gross before taxes) and the 1099 is *their* promise to deal with the taxes. > setup office space, Sign a lease and wallah. > get yourself a company car All I need for that is a DBA, can even open bank accounts and get credit cards in the company name with nothing but a DL and that DBA. > and do your fed income taxes. As a single proprietorship I do my taxes the same old way I always did them except I must include the SE documents which only add a few pages. If I do the contract work via 1099's (which says that the contractor is responsbile for the taxes on that income) all I have to show is the gross amount paid to that contract person. > If they enforced every word of every code strongly and > literally it would be nearly impossible to conduct business. No, it wouldn't. For example I do contract work for small office - home office companies (generaly 10 or less employees total). I write software, install software, train, repair hardware, do upgrades, etc. and there are literaly NO regulations at any level on those activities outside those imposed by 1099's for sub-contractors (who work their own hours and must provide their own tools) and the contract I and the customer agree to. If I buy something for a customer I pass the receipt along to them and get reimbursed for my time (on a seperate receipt) and the exact amount for the items purchased (I am acting as their agent and not a reseller) so I don't even need a tax number technicaly (since I don't pay state sales tax on labor costs and am not selling them the items purchased). All I need is a $15 DBA and a bunch of blank 1099's. Why do cities and states require licenses on such things as air conditioning or auto mechanics? Because for years there were no licenses required and anybody could do it. After enough decades of scam artists, poorly run business who cost customers money because they went out of business without doing the work, or they did sub-standard (as defined by the practitioners of that activity) work. I challenge you to find an example where a state or federal regulation was imposed before the industry matured. > Bullshit, monopolies exist because of the regulation. No, monopolies exist because people are greedy and want to own everything. History is full of examples where industries were unregulated (ever read Upton Sinclair?) and abused the employees and the market and as a result regulation was imposed. It's interesting that free-market mavens never seem to mention that the vast majority of monopoly examples occured *before* industry regulation was imposed. Even in the Microsoft case, it's only now that they've grown so big and become so porous about information that the government has stepped in and begun asking "has the industry matured to the point where continued non-regulation is a detriment because it allows hording of industry resources?" Even if we were to de-regulate the clothing industry for example it is highly unlikely that child labor and sweat shops would become less prevalent. Of course I'd like to see your evidence to the contrary. "Those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it" Santyana > Bullshit again, there is a *big* difference between a regulated market > (mixed capitalist/socialist economy) and a command economy. So because > we don't live in Soviet Russia we should all bend over and take it? A regulated market is something that has regulation imposed from the outside (ie besides the supplier and consumer). There are certainly different kinds of regulated economies just like there are different kinds of mammals. But to say that Zebra's aren't mammals because they don't look like an Aardvark is a dis-serivice. You, and every other free-market maven, have yet to demonstrate with historical example that free-market works. > Coercive power takes form via regulation. Without it a bad monopoly is a > short-lived one. Tell that to the rail-roads of the mid to late 1800's, the meat packing industry of the late 1800's and early 1900's. The sweat houses of the garment industry since the early 1800's, etc. No sir, history doesn't support your proposition at all. > Liability, liability, liability. Regulation often promotes bad practice > as businesses comply with minimum regulation and nothing more instead of > thinking for themselves. What is worse is government often shields > companies from liability. See above examples. Hell, take a look at the wet pet food market now for a perfect example of why non-regulation is a bad thing and why liability and other such buzz words don't work in the real world. And you were wondering why your little toodles was loosing her hair, was always excited and aggitated and has the health of a pet 3-4 years older than the chronological age... Bottem line, in a free market (no regulation other than consumer and supplier) there are no controlling mechanisms and no recourse for the consumer because they have nothing to demonstrate even an implied warranty or liability of manufacturer (read software licenses to see how this can be side stepped easily, hint: imagine a software license on the side of a can of beans.). ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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