December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:40:34 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: Re: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... > Observe that the level of harm is approximately proportional > to the level of government regulation. Please be so kind as to demonstrate by example why you believe that by de-regulating the food industry, for example, we would recieve better quality foodstuffs? Without regulation why would these companies quit mixing their products and making better systems of quality control so that the cases of E. Coli for example would decrease? Why is it that the number of deaths in this country from salmonella and related food diseases have *decreased* since the industry was regulated in the early 1920's when the problem (people getting sick or dying from adulterated foodstuffs) was at its peak? Just look at the current issues related to non-pasteurized fruit juice prodcts for a current example of the consequences of free-market economics lack of regulation and by extension responsibility and the consequences thereof. > You presuppose that government officials will be more > virtuous than private individuals. This is obviously > unlikely, since they have less reason to fear retribution > than private individuals. It's the private companies fearing retribution from the government, not the end user. Your reasoning is faulty. In an industry that is completely unregulated by anyone other than the consumer and the producer the consumer will be taken advantage of. The reason is that there is no real-world market force that will force compliance. Now some are going to scream that the consumer will, the problem is that the consumer is denied the information about/from the producer they require in order to make the reasoned judgement. The bottem line as to why free-market economies don't work is that it isn't in the producers best interest to have a educated consumer. They might buy somebody elses product or start their own company. Both of those are bad for profits. Free-market mavens forget that producers are just as greedy and corrupt as everyone else, there is no fair competition in an unregulated market given the pshychological make up of human beings. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:59 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote: >> There is a desert which is 1000 miles across. There is a camel who can carry >> 1000 bananas maximum. The camel eats 1 banana per mile travelled. The camel >> has a total of 3000 bananas to begin with. What is the maximum number of >> bananas that the camel can get across to the other side uneaten? > >My camels don't understand/can't eat fractional bananas. Why are bananas quantized in the presense of camels? Is this a quantum-computing thing?

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17 Dec '03

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Re: propose: `cypherpunks license' (Re: Wanted: Twofish source code) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:04:20 +0100 > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: propose: `cypherpunks license' (Re: Wanted: Twofish source code) > If your aim is to maximise crypto deployment, use BSD or some other > relatively free distribution license other than GNU, so that we can > more rapidly write and deploy crypto software to undermine the power > of the state. With the proviso that the original author looses all access to profits from that code, effectively doing the R&D for untold numbers of companies without compensation or even recognition (they can claim it's all theirs at that point because they don't have to release the source). ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Blanc" <blancw(a)cnw.com> > Subject: RE: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd) > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:09:55 -0700 > Free market economices don't "work", simply because they are run by humans, who regularly suffer > psychological breakdowns, envy, and mistakes of judgement, not to mention disreputable marketing > departments. Regulated economies, however, are run by government drones, and are therefore perfect > vehicles which, with unfailing success, make all of their captive customers happy. > Not so, but I appreciate the sense of irony in your comment. > Everyone knows this, as we witness the apparent success of all those regulated economies overseas > which outshine the U.S. by three (maybe four) orders of magnitude. No one over there envies the > U.S. productivity and standard of living, and they never are moved to leave and come live over here, > to give up the benefits which extreme regulation confers upon them, in place of the (admittedly > mixed) free-market fiasco which operates over here, where all things are uncertain and frighteningly > unpredictable. Simply because people see a better place does not imply it is the *best* place. Selecting the lesser of two evils does not magicaly make one a goodness. It's still an evil. > In fact, many people become so disgusted with the monopolies and disfunctional liberty which exists > here, that they regularly expatriate to go live in places like Sweden, Germany, even Canada, where > they have the peace of mind and assurance that State coercion will provide for their every need - > in a most efficient, timely, prompt, and user-friendly manner. > They never have to worry about who has more or less, who is better or worse, or who knows better > than anyone what is best for everyone. It's all been pre-established and exists incontrovertibly in > their national consumer database. It would be nice if you said something other than "I disagree". It would really be nice if you cold describe specific examples and hypothesis, but that obviously is asking too much. Ah well. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Another question about free-markets...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Milton Friedman won the Nobel price in 1976 in economics. One of the questions he asked was: Do corporate executives, provided they stay within the law, have responsibilities in their business activities other than to make as much money for their stockholders as possible? His answer was 'no', they have no responsibility outside of those two considerations (ie the law, stockholders expectations of profit). Now in a free-market, by definition, there is no law. What then is the responsibility of businesses other than the pure unadulterated pursuit of profit? If this includes lying, denying consumers information, etc. what harm is done, they have fulfilled their responsibility to their shareholders (potentialy quite lucratively) and broken no law. Within this environment it follows that a primary strategy for such executives is the elimination of *all* competition. And since there is no law other than the measure of profit all can be justified. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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17 Dec '03

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No Subject
by Rod Logic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Capitalism and Monopolies (was RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > Only after the early 1890's when the situation got so bad > they had to do something. Prior to that there was no federal > intervention in railroad operations per se Completely false. Traffic to/from the West coast did not warrant the capital investment in transcontinental railway, so the government make *exclusive* lands grants to specific railroads to extend the railways to the West coast (100M acres between 1863-7) . Those subsidies created the monopolies, the source of coercive power over Western farmers. Protest against this arbitrary power was blamed on the market instead of the government subsidies, and resulted in the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887, and the Sherman Act of 1890. I should have stated government "distortions" instead of "regulation." That includes subsidies. > And every drop of mineral rights in this country is owned > by oil companies or the US government as a result of the > conflicts that took place from the late 1800's to the > early 1900's. The placement (ownership) of these rights, their value, restrictions and enforcement are the result of a free market? No, government intervention. > Actualy the local and state regulators did that back in the > late 50's and early 60's the federals had no hand in it. Did anyone ever state monopolies result from federal regulations? Government distortion/intervention, that can come at any level. Acts of force or coercion can create a monopolistic situation, free trade cannot. > Bullshit math. The interactions are nowhere near as simple as > you state. The big company has the resources to outlast the > smaller company in any industry that can monopolize (an issue > you seem to miss, not all industries can monopolize) So what is the discriminating factor(s) distinguishing industries that can and cannot be monopolized? Don't forget capital markets; a free fluid capital market can and will support a smaller competitor if potential long term profits will support it. I will qualify that we do not have a very free capital market, it currently favors larger businesses. The answer is to deregulate the capital market. Even with our heavily regulated capital markets this works often. > Examples please where a small firm dukes it out (sic) on > equal terms with a larger one... Equality is about freedom of action, not status or result. Amazon vs Barnes & Noble, Yahoo vs NBC, Red Hat vs Microsoft, etc. I see the egalitarian perversion of "equality" polluting arguments against free market capitalism. Equal states and "game" like fairness and handicapping is not ideal, Freedom is ideal. > > In one of those nordic countries, I think Finland, the phone > > system was never made a public enterprise or state regulated > > monopoly, but most other things were. > > Then how does it operate? Who owns the switches and wires? > Either it's a public utility or it's some sort of private > enterprise (though it may by under contract to the government). However buys and installs the switches and wires. There is no artificial barriers such as right-of-way restrictions, exclusive franchise, utilities commission, or nationalization. There are many competing telecom companies, all the way to local loop. > > There is no "natural monopoly" that is not somewhere a > > A 'natural' monoploy, to my mind, is a company that operates > in an industry that can be saturated. That's a perverted definition of 'natural' monopoly. A 'natural' monopoly involves something where all or none must benefit (e.g. military defense) or something based on a severely scarce resource (e.g. real estate to your house). Market saturation is a natural effect of free competition, the number of firms it takes is irrelevant, and competition is not barred by artificial restraint, only profit. If a firm abuses its position competition can and will capitalize on the opportunity. A coercive monopoly is one that is immune to market constraints (supply and demand) -- that requires artificial barriers. > The VCR industry is a great example of a 'natural' monopoly. You must be joking. I could enter the video recording/playback equipment market tomorrow with sufficient capitalization and turn good profits in 5 years. I didn't say VCR because that is terribly myopic, the market demand is the function not the technology. Technology and innovation is a natural destabilizer to monopoly positions. Matt

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