December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

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17 Dec '03

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The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attila T. Hun wrote: > as for the great fairweather liberal bigot Blanc's passing it off > as tcm's drunken ramblings, I doubt it. war is hell, and > "innocents" get wasted --but, a society at war has no innocents. > blow 'em all away. scorched earth is inadequate; burnt earth is > more effective. if there are no prisoners, there are no > complainers. ............................................................... If we were out in the field, you'd get fragged for calling me that. <g> If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself. In fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different levels: racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to leave out political. Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail" for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs, homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed", the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice that is being threatened by proposed legislation). There are little battles raging on all around us, not only the fight for privacy-by-encryption which you all are aware of. Some cpunks have stated that "society doesn't know or care what is happening". Some of youall don't know the kinds of battles or other people/groups are having, either with government or with some opposing members of this same society. There is a lot of information out in the world competing for attention and resources - on the net, on the intranet, in the TV, in the newspapers, in magazines, in major newsletters, local newspapers, in posting on kiosks ("Get the US out of Nicaragua! " (sure, when I have a few free minutes and a couple of extra bucks")). How can one keep up with/contribute to all of these? So many times, I will happen to read accounts of people who have got into trouble of some kind, or down on their luck (they lost their job and don't have skills, they need a heart transplant, they got jailed by mistake, the car dealership gave them a bum deal), and they decide that society doesn't really know what is happening and complain that it is unsympathetic and lament "when will society wake up and realize that something needs to be done", etc.. Well, jeez, there's only so much time to spend on everybody else's problems. All these people with their problems would like everyone one else to be aware of their plight and sympathetic to their rights and to contribute to their cause, and get disturbed about being "marginalized". As far as I'm concerned, everyone is "marginalized". But people are behaving as expected: the Waco religious group acted as expected, the BATF acted as expected; government employees behave as expected. The cpunks, who know so much about government, in particular the NSA & certain luminaries related to privacy&encryption, should expect that things will go on as they do - even if they bomb D.C. out of existence. And this is because, apparently, people of this type & kind simply haven't evolved enough to expect anything different. Now, crypto was supposed to allow for the possibility of not having to deal with these people directly; it was supposed to usher in the new technological era whereby one could "route around" and generally avoid messing with Government Mongers, from negotiating for the right to breathe on one's own Maintenance Schedule. Well, so much for an anarchic life of Independent Means. I must say, from the posts I've been reading these past several days, I haven't seen very imaginative ideas for dealing with the problems which dull governments create. It is typical of dull governments that when pressed to the wall they resort to desperate, mediocre ways of dealing with problems - like obfuscation, exaggerated charges of evil intent, physical violence; all signs of a limited intellectual capacity for coming to terms with the facts of reality (the problems they face as Protectors of Goodness & Justice (tm) ). I would have expected newer, more creative ("evolved") ideas from scientists, mathematicians, physicists, computer-savvy members. .. Blanc .. Blanc

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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
by TruthMonger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Blanc wrote: > If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself. In > fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different > levels: racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to > leave out political. Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail" > for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs, > homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed", > the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than > ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would > love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the > moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either > stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other > Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health > food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against > something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice > that is being threatened by proposed legislation). Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs. Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the mud and scum of things ... Something always always sings." I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have names, faces, and children. I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict, and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing" their target and discounting their target's humanity. I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate a "body count", I never fail to count the children. Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative thought. Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be forseen before they arise. When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely out of blind reactionism. God bless Blanc. TruthMonger -96

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Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
by TruthMonger #-96 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hallam-Baker, whose posts always seem to read as if they were written by a government disinformant, wrote: > Alan Olsen wrote: > > I think that the Government is trying to make an example of Mr. Bell. I > > think that much of the charges reported in the news are false. > I would not depend on Bell to any extent in any circumstance to > be reliable. That's right. We should not support "wrong" people. So first H-B needs to demean Jim Bell personally. > > 3) The suspected crimes list keeps changing. How many times has the > > "official" story changed? Each time it gets more and more lurid. > > Expanding is the word. Put someone under a microscope and you > are liable to find out quite a bit about them. And we should not support "bad" people, so H-B also needs to criminalize Jim Bell by vague innuendo. > Bell is not the kind of loon to stick one's neck out for. Why risk your own neck supporting a loon? > It may > well be that he did not explicitly advocate murder but he danced > awfully close to that line. Sure, maybe he didn't actually commit a crime, but he pushed the envelope, so he made his own troubles. > Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure > that you are rescuing the right person. It's best to do nothing, because it's not you. It's a loon. It's someone who probably did something illegal, even if it wasn't what he was charged with (because we're all guilty of something). So now H-B has given the individual cypherpunks "reasons" not to support Jim Bell, or to protest his persecution. So what if Jim Bell is a cypherpunk to the core? So what if he is being prosecuted for speaking of things that many of us have spoken about and debated on the list? There are sounds of gunfire coming from our neighbor's house. Let's just close the window and hope that the trouble doesn't come our way. TruthMonger #-96

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Key Recovery / The True Story
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

When Key Recovery and Key Escrow schemes become a fact of life, there will be abuse and fraud of the nature that some on the cypherpunks list have expressed concern about. The grandmother who is arrested for plugging a parking meter will have her computer confiscated so the authorities can search for evidence that her plugging of the meter was pre-planned. Some $20,000/year clerk is going to dip into someone else's funds to support their drug habit. And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this or that government policy. The fact of the matter is, the government is perfectly happy with the citizens' vocal opposition to these possibilities because it provides a convenient smokescreen for the greater import of Key Escrow. They will occasionally pop a Jim Bell, or a "pornographer" to justify their "need" for Key Escrow, but they will let nature take its course until their capacity to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time, is an accepted fact of life. The real reasons for the push for Key Recovery and Key Escrow are centered on global concerns. World power is acquired and maintained by acquiring and manipulating information and opinion. Countries and companies are helped to rise and fall from prominence. One is supported, another is sabotaged. One politician has his sins covered and another has them exposed. The rich and the powerful have always ruled, no matter what form the government of the day takes. It has always been so. When the government disinformation specialists incite the citizens to fight over pennies, it is to distract them while the rulers steal their dollars. The chaos of the citizen is the friend of the government, so they work to promote a chaos that will meet their needs. They allow us to have our Saviors, but if our J.F.K.'s and our Martin Luther Kings get too powerful, then they are removed. The allow us to have our victories, but there is always a 'rider' attached that takes away yet another of our rights and freedoms. While we fight battles, the government fights wars. Anyone who believes that the attack on Jim Bell is not aimed at the CypherPunks is a fool. While we fight battles, the government fights wars. TruthMonger

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Re: Spam IS Free Speech
by Mark Grant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) > ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally > damaging way. It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged return address at $$$$(a)unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal action against them without spending vast amounts of money? Mark P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows, see details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.

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Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: > The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much > is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not > required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent > parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say > nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are > involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.) The noncooperation of the Ramseys does not reflect on their guilt or innocence, but on the fact that they have an excellent lawyer. People who have average lawyers, or even good ones, have a much greater chance of being convicted of a crime that they did not commit. When the police interview you, they have information or evidence that you and your lawyer aren't aware of. Their job is to get you to make statements that can be used against you in the future if you are charged with a crime. They attempt to lead you into making an innocent statement such as, "I eat eggs sometimes." and the next thing you know you are in court with a prosecutor repeating it and pointing at you accusingly. The fact of the matter is that guilt or innocence is no longer decided on real evidence, for the most part. *Circumstantial* evidence rules the roost, and it has been perverted to become a battle of which lawyer can spin the most convincing tale around indefinite evidence. So you go to jail because you drive a red truck, smoke camels and own a pair of brown socks (despite the fact that all of the witnesses described someone who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier). How is this crypto relevant? It is yet another symptom of why we are losing our privacy and our freedom. The Ramseys should live in a world where they can put trust in their government and tell them everything that might remotely help find their child's murderer, instead of unjustly ending up on the chopping block themselves. Cypherpunks should live in a world where they can share their logs with the government to help them catch a child murderer and know that their cooperation will not be used to abuse themself or others who use the remailers. What about the cooperation of Jim Bell's friends. The newspapers report that his friends say they talked about this or that in a joking manner (or somesuch innocuous way), but you can bet your bottom dollar that this is not mentioned on the application for an arrest warrant. When the police interview you and ask you if you plan to kill the president, answer, "Yes. When pigs fly." Which part of your statement will they neglect to mention when they file the charges against you? (Take a wild guess on this one.) If you have joined in the discussion of the AP Bot, then I hope that you saved *all* of your posts, because the government will be introducing the ones where you described a possible implementation but not the posts where you described the system as unfeasible and unrealistic. If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't have been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and perverted to support Bell's persecution. TruthMonger

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AW: Good book on stegano?
by Hartmut Korth 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Von: Chevreau Sylvain Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Mai 1997 02:37 An: stegano-l Betreff: RE: Good book on stegano? Hi everybody, hi Deepa, 1) Maybe the tutorial/review is being written in some university or company, e.g. for the planed 2nd Int. Workshop on Information Hiding or other publications or internally. Who knows? Because there have been several seperate publications and first compilations in various media in '96 and I haven't yet found any technical paper about steganography published in 1997. Has anybody? My feeling is everybody is reviewing right now! 2) Actually there are already at least 2 BOOKS dedicated to steganography: - "Disappearing cryptography" by Peter Wayner (pcw(a)access.digex.net) the review of which can be found in the CIPHER newsletter #19 (or was it 18?) & #20. [How to get first contact with Cipher, "Newsletter of the IEEE Computer Society's TC on Security and Privacy" : BACK ISSUES: There is an archive that includes each copy distributed so far, in ascii, in files you can download at URL http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/cipher-archive.html There is also an anonymous FTP server that contains the same files. To access the archive via anonymous FTP: 1. ftp www.itd.nrl.navy.mil 2. At prompt for ID, enter "anonymous" 3. At prompt for password, enter your actual, full e-mail address 4. Once you are logged in, change to the Cipher Directory: cd pub/cipher 5. Now you can request any of the files containing Cipher issues in ascii. Issues are named in the form: EI#N.9612 where N is the number of the issue desired and 9612 captures the year and month it appeared. ] - "Information Hiding", edited by Ross Anderson, Springer Verlag Proceedings of the 1st International Workshop held in Cambridge, U.K., in May/June 96 Infos at URL http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14 (see section 'Privacy and Freedom issues'). 3) To answer your question anyway, I would advise you to take a look at this nice page I've discovered recently (NEW: it's 1 month old!) : http://www-nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~hartung/watermarkinglinks.html Thanks to Frank Hartung by the way. Here you will find easily several links to past BIBLIOGRAPHIES for past years, and also have on overview of what's the hell is happening !!! Good readings, Sylvain Sylvain Chevreau ChevreauS(a)tce-rdf.fr for now, ChevreauS(a)thmulti.com from June on.

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New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
by decius＠ninja.techwood.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at > CardTech/SecurTech '97) their chip that can perform fingerprint > recognition/authorization. They plan on selling them for $300 each > (same cost as this face recognition system Gregory's mentioned). The > article doesn't say when they will be available. > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=BU41045.DTL& > directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/05/22 I am mailing this to cypherpunks and BCCing the original list because it is not nearly as open. I am putting on my cypherpunk hat here, and although this is not a general discussion list I think this warrants comment. (I would also like to see what the cypherpunks have to say.) Eric Hughes said that "Cryptography is about economics." When I am designing a system, I weigh the cost of securing the system verses the expected loss that will be incurred if the system is not secure. The cellular phone industry decided that it would cost them more to secure their system than it would to swallow the losses. They were wrong, but I will not digress into that. The point here is clear. Security is an economic choice. It is a business decision. Furthermore, if I decide to secure a system, I need only use enough security such that the cost to break that security is equal to the value of that which is being secured. Any additional security is a waste of money. When I am breaking a system I will always attack the weakest link (unless I am doing this for intellectual challenge but that is not really the point here). This is obvious. Lets take a look at a sample Biometric security system: Fingerprints are used to replace the pin codes on an ATM. I am being very general here, but there are four main peices to this system. The banking network itself, which is DES encrypted, the ATM, the biometric system and the human being. Note the contrast with a non-biometric system, which consists of the network, the ATM, and a pin code. Biometrics pull the human into the equation. Cracking DES would cost more than a million dollars. I can't put a value on cracking the ATM, but they are designed to be difficult to open up and most are in places where they are very visible, so the cost is very high. I have not seen anyone present a method for attacking a biometric security device. If you assume that you will have to develop one you are again talking about millions. How about "cracking" the human... How much does a good sturdy knife cost? Less than $20. If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen. Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering people. I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.* This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance inherent in biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a large database of people's names, social security numbers, and face prints; I could set up a closed circuit camera system in my store which would provide me with the name, home address, credit, and other information about every person who enters my business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be going nutz over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store for some Pepto... -- */^\* Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja */^\* Decius(a)ninja.techwood.org "If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm

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Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure >that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents >also have the right not to be threatened with murder. Threats are illogical. --Sarin

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