December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: write up AP for FC++
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

More than a month later, James A. Donald responded: >I see no point in explaining our ideas so thoroughly and repeatedly >that even cops and politicians start to understand them. ......................................................... I dont' think where you publish your idea makes as much difference as in how you present it, based on what attitude and inclinations you reveal about your motives for the future. If you are having an abstract discussion which explores the ramifications of what a new technology makes possible - not only for the good, but for the bad - it is surely distinguishable from a discussion on who exactly you dislike and how precisely you are going to hurt them badly with your new, advanced weapon-tools. One type of discussion could reveal your perspective and the scope of your ability to follow ideas to their logical conclusions. A different discussion, conversely, could reveal your psychological problems and the malfunctioning of a disturbed imagination. Anyone who studies ideas seriously will want to explain their discoveries to colleagues; it's almost a given that this is so. I wasn't suggesting to Tim that he reiterate himself to clueless public authorities for the purpose of elevating their understanding (although it is a fact that Tim very often has explained, again and again, the same ideas which he has posted in the past, until lately he has arrived at the point of merely referencing himself and his previous contributions to the list.). I was making reference to the mistake certain people are making, as he mentioned, of attributing to Jim Bell the origin of the AP ideas, when Tim's own extensive exploration of this subject preceded Jim's epiphanies by years. I was encouraging Tim that presenting his ideas to a physical gathering of people who are of the mind to consider the impact of these possibilities upon their business enterprises, would contribute to clarifying the situation (to some degree - I can't say how or what kind of effect it would actually have, obviously). But anyway, James, don't you think it is better to live in an atmosphere of people who have a clue, rather than otherwise, regardless of their position in this contradictory world? .. Blanc

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by sales＠thebestcoffee.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:18:01 -0400 > From: Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> > Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > >[Tim May wrote: ed.] > >> Some will remail for some form of digital postage. Some will charge too little, some too much. > >> Some will adjust their prices based on market/customer reactions. And so on. > > > >And there are a couple of problems with this: > > > > - it relies on a mechanism not currently in place to interface with > > other more traditional financial institutions. Which I might add > > don't look upon this as the most trustworthy mechanism. > > Ecash is in place right now. True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which will dominate and be used by all parties. Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action. > > - how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when > > I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage > > equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00? > > This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the > customer. How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic, thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking. If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes? > Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00. As a > customer, I would not see this as unreasonable. Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to send an email around. The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure. Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing Internet infrastructure for nearly free. Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in general indicate a low market value on anon remailers. This means the cost per msg. must be very low (the aforementioned micro payments) and hence leads to two realizations: - we need a lot of remailers - we need a lot of traffic to invoke economy of scales It is clear that neither of these can exist without the other, meaning this puts us at a chicken-or-the-egg type situation. > >I suspect that anon remailers will operate by something similar to > >ISP's where when the account is setup some fee is paid for use and > >not on a use by use based fee. The problem with that is it creates a > >'concrete' link between the party desiring anonymity and the remailer > >operator that may be exploited in some (most? all?) cases to break > >that anonymity. > > The way to break the concrete link is with blinded credentials. Of > course, ecash already provides this feature without the hassle of > opening an account with a remailer operator, writing and deploying new > software, etc. etc. True, but it doesn't have the rest of the infrastructure (some detailed above) in place. To get this to work will take more than a couple dozen operators swapping some digi-cash between themselves. There are entirely too many infrastructure and legal issues for remailers to be any sort of profitable long-term business that will attract non-techie investors. If you know of some investors please let them know of me as I am very interested in commercial remailers (anon & not). ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Syniker(a)aol.com > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:21:11 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: Re: Digital Postage (fwd) > I'm probably not thinking right Jim -- but what if I bought a postal > money order, or such, with cash... sent it too you... along with > an encyrpted email that referred to the serial number of the > money order... then, you uncyphered my email... to verify payment, and > recyphered my account info to me... > Would something like that work to establish a paid-up account? It would provided nobody was really concerned about tracking you. Let's consider your scenario for a moment <any mistakes in comprehension or description or my own>... Process: 1. purchase M.O. with cash, presumably in person 2. use ground mail to get the M.O. to the remailer 3. send encrypted email from your nym to me identifying which account it applies to. 4. remailer receives the email and the M.O. 5. apply funds to account. I see a couple of ways a determined mallet could over time figure out who was doing what with whom. My primary assumption is that mallet has some reason to suspect a specific party and their use of anon remailers. When the M.O. is purchased, even by cash, the chances of getting put on tape is pretty high. This places a clear link between at least one party and the purchase of the M.O. (it has a serial #) and the time it was purchased (M.O.'s have time stamps). Making it trivial to figure out which security tape(s) to review. The ground mail places at least a rough geographic area as to its source unless you plan on travelling all over the states sending your M.O.'s. This is too much trouble for a user except in very unique circumstances. My grandmother for example probably won't travel across town let alone across the state on each use. By monitoring the physical mail at the remailer we can clearly link the mail to the recipient. When the remailer deposits the M.O. a record is going to be made about who received it and how much. My guess is that it would take about 3-4 cycles of this before mallet can start putting a clear picture together of what and who is involved. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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17 Dec '03

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quote
by Zooko Journeyman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Igor Chudov contributed a quote from some government manual: >These anti-government extremists and supporters are convinced >citizens are being systematically oppressed by an illegal, >totalitarian government. They believe the time for traditional >political reform has passed, that their freedom will only be >secured by resistance to the law and attacks against the >government in several forms. > >Members of these groups bond to one another and lose contact with >other people who hold different opinions. The isolation works to >reinforce their views, which in turn gives them new purpose. >This new purpose may take ordinary ideas to extremes, rationalize >their problems into blaming government, and cause members to >compete with each other to make stronger statements. Couldn't've said it better myself. I see the same pattern in cypherpunks and in my non- (or barely-) 'Netted extremist friends of the right, the libertarian, and the left varieties. I've argued with myself for years about whether the spread of the Net would connect these people back to their fellow humans, by offering uncensorable, violence-free communication channels, or whether it help them to make virtual communities consisting solely of people who reinforce their own beliefs. I'm still hoping for the former... Z, hopeful cynic

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:29:28 -0400 > From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > At 12:25 AM 9/29/97 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > >> From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> > >> So I proposed, and documented, that the minimum level to achieve this > >> would be a $50K investment over a year's time. This is in fact, more or > >> less what the Cracker remailer takes to run. > > > >I have to disagree on the annual cost to run. Considering the load of > >remailers a simple ISDN would be sufficient. > > Sure. You can run a remailer on whatever bandwidth, and under whatever > conditions you choose. Duh. > When I did a breakdown of the pricing, I simply put > forth what Cracker has behind it, not the minimum required. But with an > ISDN line, you then have to have a location to house it, so you in theory > require rent. You also add one more thing in the loop that is subject to > failure. Like a T1 doesn't require a POP. Like T1's and their associated CSU/DSU's and such don't break (tell that to several of my customers who will get a hearty chuckle out of that one). Like they don't need air-conditioning and other support services. > The winsock remailer demonstrates that a remailer can run on a 28.8K PPP > connection, part time. Remailers never have been bandwidth intensive. True, but to be effective they must be available on demand and the user shouldn't have to wait until your auto-dialer feels this is a good time to deliver the service. > An advantage of the 10MB connection for Cracker is that when those several > hundred megabyte mailbombs, and thousands of addresses to the same location > come in, they can be discarded faster than with a 64K ISDN connection. I have found that my 128k connection very seldom gets congested even with high traffic. Other traffic choke points usualy limit the amount of traffic that I see. Even when one of my customers runs their resume tracking program (which will saturate a ethernet easily in testing) can seldom saturate the line for more than a few seconds. > In reality, Cracker runs with whatever resources have been made available > to us. It turns out we were offered a spare 10MB connection before we > offered a spare 64K connection. And interestingly enough, the true cost of > the 10MB connection is less than the 64K ISDN connection would be. There > are definite advantages to a colocated machine even if it is what we are > "stuck with". Ah, so cracker is not a true commercial model but rather a hybrid then? You pay for some services and a 3rd party donates the rest? I'm wondering about your co-location machine, from your comments above it must be sitting in a field since you don't pay rent (or was that your way of saying somebody else pays the rent for you?). Is this so? Since so many of your utilities and physical plant are donated I have to question the accuracy and utility of your figures as well as the applicability of those figures to a true commercial enterprise. Whether you have realized it or not, all those seemingly great freebies and perks for nothing actualy make the remailer less stable because your operation relies on the good feelings of a 3rd party which can be used to Mallet's advantage. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Remailers and ecash
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Lucky Green wrote: >On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Anonymous wrote: >> There also seems to be an idea that there is some big R&D investment >> in adapting a remailer to use e-cash. There isn't. You have to open >> an account at Mark Twain Bank. You have to figure out how to call the >> Digicash executable from within a Perl script. (Since nobody has >> corrected me on this, I am becoming confident that it is really as >> easy as I think.) Why not try it? Worst case, you lose a little >> time. Best case, you get rich and the remailer network takes off. > >There are a number of technical reasons why you really don't want to call >the standard commandline Ecash client from a script to add/retrieve Ecash >from Mixmaster remailer packets. The biggest problem being that you can >fit only a few coins into the packet header as specified. There is >no feature in the standard Ecash client that allows coin level >control. DigiCash firmly resited and continues to resist adding it. A >$0.25 payment could be paid as three coins or as 25 coins. The user has no >control over this. For this and a number of other reasons, DigiCash's >software is unsuitable for the task. > >You certainly could use DigiCash's software with Type 1 remailers. Though >why anybody would want to pay for a service as insecure as Type 1 >remailers is beyond me. Type 1 remailers should be removed from service. Nonsense. Type 1 remailers offer a certain level of security. It is suitable for many applications. Type 1 remailers require a fairly determined attacker to thwart. They would certainly keep you safe from the IRS, but maybe not the NSA. Even if you were running a child kidnapping ring and failing to report the income, you would be pretty safe using Type 1 remailers. The NSA would never take the chance of revealing their capabilities just to save a few kids. In this instance, Type 1 remailers offer a real benefit in that it is easy to extend them with new features, such as accepting payment. > Furthermore, the barrier to entry is too high for the consumer. Correction: for many consumers. The barrier for entry is not too high for the hard core "privacy extremists" of the cypherpunks list. And, were there a sizeable number of goods and services purchasable using ecash, you might discover many consumers did not find it too high a barrier to entry. Getting ecash is certainly easier than getting a credit card. >All these problems are about to be solved by third party >software. Perhaps then we will see for-pay remailers. Maybe, but today this is vaporware. In my experience, plans based on vaporware are unreliable. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNC6bDpaWtjSmRH/5AQFaPgf9HKbBpJS6DB4jWof3l67Mg7BecFD/d2Kw XsmEAI/wlasD81YhoYCyOzFBienb/ev2XiM/nQqQuOQFdNs7lll+GP1zAd8TTURt yPlL5mX9BOMjLaYUgfz/8j5h6ld/OTyZoh/cygXD8Glg4u8Y+af+wlosWm80IvpT lnM0HJ02KIYd1yPA8W0dqKS6qCmOJzbMijOhii3HuCUYUJtTlGx1tYt7dNej2/NR nNSjKhfv5xUYc/r8npzeqLwFJ0BBQwrjE3NG/+3IFJK8LXndHldNASy0gNBJ70Xa XenXJp5OquJXTyIlLSLFvCZOPnffvXFEgEew75HjZttYpkeg2qggbw== =ULi0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Digital Postage (fwd)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Jim Choate wrote: >> Ecash is in place right now. > >True, but there are only 3 systems and it is not clear at all which >will dominate and be used by all parties. No, there is only one system which provides anonymity. It's called ecash. The other systems do not have the features we want. There is a commonly held belief that one form of payment or another must dominate. This is an artifact of laws which require a society to use one type of payment. Historically there have been a wide variety of different currencies, just as there has been a wide variety of any "commodity." >Also there is the issue of security in regards to maintaning >anonymity when there is such a small pool of parties to use. Doesn't >take a genius to figure out where to hang out and watch the action. Do you mean watch the bank and see who is using e-cash? That might tell you who is using remailers, but not much else. >> > - how do you charge for the postage, per submission? What happens when >> > I want to send 10,000 parties the email. Do I still pay the digi-postage >> > equivalent of $.35? Or do I pay $350.00? >> >> This is easily worked out between the remailer operator and the >> customer. > >How? There is certainly no clear mechanism in place. Does the >customer contact each remailer operator prior to sending the traffic, >thus opening up N opportunities for anonymity cracking. Can do! Remailer operators can easily advertise what they sell and how much it costs without compromising the customer the same way they advertise their remailer and its features now. Price setting is a black art. People running businesses make decisions based on talking to potential customers, pilot marketing tests, and common sense. I recommend that people start pricing at a quarter per message per hop because it is easier to move prices down than to move them up. Besides, the remailer operators have been doing all the work while a bunch of free loaders like Monty Cantsin use their services and then carp about it. It seems fair for us to shoot some money towards the operators for a change. >If the operators agree to a system how do we get there? Is it time to have a >anon-remailer conference to settle on distributed payment schemes? Absolutely not. The remailers certainly don't have to charge the same rates. Each remailer operator should use a pricing scheme that works for them. >> Were I running a remailer, I would charge $350.00. As a customer, >> I would not see this as unreasonable. > >Unless it is pertty serious nobody is going to pay such a fee just to >send an email around. What is being sold is privacy and security, not e-mail transport. It has great value to me and many cypherpunks. If you don't value it, that's your business. >The problem I see is one of scale. The infrastructure for handling >physical mail is very 'bulky' and requires a lot infrastructure. >Email on the other hands effectively rides on the back of an existing >Internet infrastructure for nearly free. You are confusing one cost of doing business with the price the market will bear. >Because of the historicaly low cost for email this would tend to in >general indicate a low market value on anon remailers. Not to people who care about their privacy. But, I agree that the price per hop will likely drop far below a quarter, not because people won't pay more, but because they won't have to. If it's basically inexpensive to provide remailer services (and it is), price competition should reduce the costs. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNC6hkJaWtjSmRH/5AQGstgf9E92tnB0xPcaboYmMFc/73Qtducj/yS2n RyBiz86lpCLzrUup3qrSm10w3LX14O4XcUKUL5NQc81Xrd9J+Kppdzlsb2ZkT69s bWY4WqqqEkrWhu3JmEQ+mqniN5f8WehEtte3bkHjmpRhe+iGe9Xov6dTZxojXi/W O1SOSmpUVBIIwWJCGlDtc44jdUB7G9AcjUj1/RcDG8OtMK5tJdAOvFS4I2qj8e1i 2IamdXioEIk9at/anxjqpMvWDwFYUdWlEHIzbQP049+PTffbxKttvl1tX604VemT HrH4TXazOCo/CV+YBBlC3zkU8cTMKgInedk2If1OTaObPm0wnPPTow== =z+b0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Remailers and ecash
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Steve Schear wrote: >>Digicash has software for Unix platforms which one could very easily >>call from a Perl script. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't >>be ideal, but it would work and should be easy to incorporate into >>many of the remailers. (I think.) > >True, but then the remailer's income would be available to LE, since >payee anonymity isn't supported by DC. Accountless operation is by >far a better alternative for some business. Agreed. But this is a feature to be added later, not one to stop us from using ecash now. I would also note that LE is not the only group of people that might be interested. Aside from various spook agencies (which are not law enforcement agencies), there are all sorts of other scary people in the world who should be kept out of one's financial affairs. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNC6H/5aWtjSmRH/5AQGnowf7B1zSIQjn7VEibh4TRqZGqSR16KFogAFw xOKfkhFWiA1Uvwc0QgWaRzlZ0qCUxnCaxzLYLqwhNqwoLtPeuNlZ1qPO2NnQkYlr vjKIb6JSbmqLbROUQg9OOgJG8LbKKKB7sL8S7hp8qT2g2eP84H2JIUfuZtyl4Yg8 dnDmIQo+yn87T81wF3e1H2uQwwmjPvpJQlKWPzHuhARtluoStRUhiXEBqsAxUawU COYO9/oRbHok7ta1yOw9f40GXuUIo809S99ENflA396F76xYbSbd25cH9vmzUcoW z1W9JxeFtaAF90aMxyartpKolkLvTc2fDJ//E/H8N7KAGrkqVrIXCQ== =Qiuq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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