December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

new money systems
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've written frequently on ideas about money here. not too long ago I suggested that stocks are actually becoming a kind of a currency, and that a diversity of currencies is actually preferrable to a uniformity. after a lot of research, I've come across some neat new technology that cypherpunks might be interested in. the use of money lies at the root of social interactions. what kind of properties does that money have? those properties are likely to influence the social interactions that ensue. in this country, our money supply is controlled by the federal reserve, which is actually a private banking system. there are some people who claim that key parts of it are being kept secret from the public, such as the controlling interests. there is definitely little doubt that board meetings of the fed are held in the strictest of secrecy. in the computer industry, all software and hardware is moving toward open standards. could this ideal translate to our money system as well? I suspect it can. some very reputable people are beginning to reexamine our money system and conclude that it is not that we are competing for scarce resources via money, but that we are competing for scarce money utilizing resources in the process. this involves the problem of creating money and then charging interest on this fictitious entity, as opposed to charging interest on money that is actually backed by energy and not debt. after a lot of study I've concluded that the entire money system functions like a massive electrical circuit. this is related to ideas presented in a mysterious document called "silent weapons for quiet wars" which I highly recommend to anyone on the list. some will claim it is fraudulent, but I've decided the ideas it presents are extremely genuine, regardless of the source or motives behind the writing. in an electrical circuit, you have the problem of resistence gumming up the works. engineers spend their entire lives trying to squeeze electrical efficiency out of their devices. yet the largest electrical circuit of all, of the greatest importance to the health and well-being of the entire planet, I believe has gone largely unexamined. quite possibly the electrical circuit that comprises our world economy has large amounts of undesirable resistance. this manifests in a very subtle way-- not direclty as inflation, not interest rates, but as a difficulty in obtaining money. in a system with less resistance, money would actually be easier to obtain. and in fact many have reason to believe the world economy has been intentionally designed/manipulate to have undesirable properties, such as creating an invisible and undetectable slavery. imagine that I have a rat on a wheel, and I am using its power to drive my machines. part of the energy the rat expends goes into moving food pellets into its box. but the remaining energy I siphon off for my own ends. the rat does not realize that it doesn't in theory have to expend as much energy as it is doing to live, and does not question its existence as long as it lives. but I can use this energy for my own agenda. would it be possible to create such a system using money? are *we* the rats on the treadmill? is all our money energy going toward feeding ourselves, or is some of it being siphoned off? others who have written intelligently on the subject are suggesting exactly that-- that a system of invisible slavery is now in existence and actually pervades our culture. it is involved in the way the fed creates money and manipulates interest rates, charging interest on money that isn't truly backed by energy. consider these questions: 1. why is it that even as our economy becomes "more productive", we have to work harder? families now require more than one wage earner when before they did not? 2. there are statistics that show in earlier times, it took [x] farmers to produce the food for the population, such that the ratio was something like 1 to 2 or so. now the ratio is nearly 1 to 60 or greater. why does this not translate into more free time for everyone? could it be there is a means by which some entity can siphon off our spare energy and time? 3. if someone is siphoning off energy from *everyone* simultaneously, could it be detected in our system? how? == what's the solution? some are looking toward "alternative" or "local" currencies. there are some cases such that local communities experienced more efficient economies when they resorted to local currencies out of desperation. this has extreme relevance to the cypherpunk ideals of trying to extricate oneself from the "powers that be" and be a sovereign individual, particularly using technical means. it is possible that new kinds of digital currencies will flourish, and that will not be tied to what appears to be a very sinister system involving the federal reserve. some interesting ideas in new money, including digital cash, can be found at www.transaction.net also, there is a system called "LETS" (local exchange transaction system) that is getting more exposure and acceptance. I believe that in the future there will be more and more propaganda relative to money systems, and I hope that those here will have a head start in understanding the secret agendas of others. I hope others will post on this subject in the future. as I say, I believe it is of extreme cypherpunk relevance.

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"how washington is strangling america"
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

------- Forwarded Message From: chasm(a)insync.net (Schuetzen) To: ADVISORY.LIST(a)insync.net, .(a)insync.net, snetnews(a)world.std.com, .(a)insync.net Subject: SNET: (fwd) piml] GOOD BOOK Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:38:23 GMT - -> SearchNet's SNETNEWS Mailing List X-No-Archive: Yes FORWARDED On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:17:32, RoxanneJohnson <alphashewolf(a)proaxis.com> wrote: TO ALL PATRIOTS AND OTHER CONCERNED CITIZENS: Here is an excellent book to read if you haven't read it already. You can acquire a copy thru Waldenbooks or Dalton Books or at your library (if they carry it). It is called A CALL FOR REVOLUTION---HOW WASHINGTON IS STRANGLING AMERICA--AND HOW TO STOP IT by Martin L. Gross. Below is a brief synopsis of the book. WE THE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY! All across the nation, Americans are gasping for breath, waking up to find the tentacles of Washington wrapped firmly around their necks--and pocketbooks. In his NEW YORK TIMES bestseller, THE GOVERNMENT RACKET: WASHINGTON WASTE FROM A TO Z, Martin L. Gross exposed the wasteful practices of Washington. Now, in A CALL FOR REVOLUTION, Gross digs far beneath that waste to uncover the startling but undeniable truth: the core of government is rotten. WE'RE BEING STRANGLED BY: * TAX LAWS THAT DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS: In 1950, a middle-class family living in Long Island had a total tax burden of 12 percent of its income. Today, that same family has a tax burden more than three times as much. * THE WELFARE PROGRAM, A NATIONAL DISGRACE: The welfare system costs the taxpayer more than $300 billion a year -- but if Uncle Sam wrote annual checks for $14,700 to all 7.7 million poor families, if would cost only $113 billion a year. * THE TWO PARTY DICTATORSHIP: The Majority Leader (not elected by voters!) has twenty-six PARTY workers on his staff -- all on the federal payroll. The total party tab in Congress is $20 million a year -- all paid by taxpayers. * A POWER-MAD WASHINGTON: Our cities and states are continually subjected to unfunded mandates from the government. Anchorage, Alaska, was forced to pollute its waste water with fish guts, then treat the organic material in order to comply with federal regulations. Washington's rules will cost that small city -- not Uncle Sam -- $428 million. * A BLOATED AND INDIFFERENT CONGRESS: Congress operates at a price tag of up to $2.8 billion a year, or some $5 million a member. What does that get us? In 1991, the House passed a $151 billion highway bill -- at a cost of $2,300 for each family of four -- without ever reading it. Scathingly honest and crammed with investigative reporting, A CALL FOR REVOLUTION takes us through the treacherous waters of government, offering direct ways to correct the corruption, end the inefficiency, and tighten the belt around the Beltway so that the federal government -- and democracy - -- can truly be "for the people." TAKE BACK YOUR GOVERNMENT! Including the cold, hard facts about Vice President Al Gore's NATIONAL PERFORMANCE REVIEW. A CALL FOR REVOLUTION -- HOW WASHINGTON IS STRANGLING AMERICA -- AND HOW TO STOP IT, by Martin L. Gross Ballantine Books, New York Libary of Congress Catalog Card Number: 93-73731 ISBN: 0-345-38773-2 Yours in Freedom, alphashewolf(a)proaxis.com Running with the pack!! QUOTE: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -- ADOLPH HITLER, 1935 PLEASE NOTE: Myself, a friend and his contacts at JPFO are currently researching the above quote for authenticity. Any leads on said quote will be greatly appreciated. Thanks....ASW _______________________________________ Charles L Hamilton (chasm(a)insync.net) Houston, TX X-No-Archive: Yes - -> Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo(a)world.std.com - -> Posted by: chasm(a)insync.net (Schuetzen) ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Extremely Disappointing: Political Cryptography
by Benjamin Grosman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear All, I have been an advocate of strong cryptography since my first haphazard experiments with my own pitiful encryption schemes. Upon gaining a little more knowledge on the subject, I have become an even stronger advocate. The right for one to think what one likes is supposedly "gratis", but this right is almost useless if the ability to communicate one's thoughts to others _in a private and secure manner_ is burgeoned by those who would grant not only to assumedly trustworthy government departments but anyone with enough will the ability and the permission to not only control the manner in which we communicate our thoughts with others, but to also listen in. And yet this is not the worst part of it all. We are reliant upon politicians, most of whom one would be encouraged to believe are there only due to such qualities as charisma and "political nouse", a term unto itself really, to make decisions on that which they really have very little idea. This decision by the U.S. Senate to endorse an action that will only repress the whole world's ability to communicate in private (the US being the leader by far in matters of technology, especially the Internet) is yet another example of those ill-educated in a particular matter succumbing to either a knee-jerk political reaction, or a knee-jerk personal reaction. Or, as in this case, a combination of both. > Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief > sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying > Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet > and Internet gambling. These legitimate law > enforcement concerns cannot and should not be > overlooked or taken lightly." "Child Pornorgrapy and the Internet" - in my opinion it is "The Phrase that Pays" in practically every situation to do with the Internet, politically speaking. I am sure that you could put forward a very good argument as to why practically any facet of the internet should be controlled, repressed, and spied upon, simply by mentioning the "phrase that pays" in the company of Politicians. It engenders the aforementioned knee-jerk reactions, encourages them, and stokes their fires to a new level. Over here in Australia it is generally accepted that most Australians have a general disdain of politicians and politics in general. Naturally, the young are at times passionately ideological, particularly arts students with too much time on their hands, and they always have faith in "the new vision", the new guard of politicians - the young politicians, who will lead them in their struggle. Little do they realise that this "new guard" had to get to their positions somehow - usually by gaining favour with the "old guard". And in doing so they effectively kneecap themselves : always chained to pleasing those who got them there, they are never able to actually do anything they themselves passionately believe (or believed) in, and they themselves end up becoming the "old guard", sucked into a vicious circle. If indeed they ever believed in what they claimed to be aiming to do. > He warned that allowing encryption to be exported > would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's > being used for child pornography? Are we going to say > that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't > think so." Such narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness is something we would probably have all hoped to not have seen, particularly in "leaders" of such stature. "The Phrase that Pays" seems to only be so applicable to the Internet: these same politicians would no doubt scream to all reaches of the globe the right for all to free speech, and yet would they repress the export of printing presses? Computers? Paper? Pencils? I am sure that these tools are far more crucial to the business of Child Pornographers than strong cryptography. It seems ridiculous to try and control or at least impinge upon the business of child pornographers by controlling the export of something that will only affect the ability of those outside of the United States to view or obtain such material. But then again, where the Communications Decency Act, a law of sheer repression, failed, systems such as Government Key Escrow might succeed. A later part of the article summarised this beautifully: > Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like > photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if > someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of > the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography? > Are we going to ban pornography?") > I guess that the whole idea of children's uncontrolled access to information had to follow: > Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in, > saying she doesn't want "children to have access to > pornography or other bad types of information." I am also an advocate of freedom of information, as strange as it might sound to combine that with advocacy for privacy and security. In my opinion there is a time and a place for everything, and it is also so with information: certain things should remain private, and justifiably so (e.g Credit Card numbers, bank account details, Social Security details), but most other information can only lead in the long run to the enhancement of our ability to learn about ourselves, and the world in which we live. Attempting to generally control access to information is the next step in the progression of repression of freedom. First you repress the ability to communicate thoughts privately, as mentioned before, and then you try and control the thoughts of the current and next generation by restricting access to information that does not fit a personal model. The next generation will thus have grown up accepting this as normal, and the world is safer place. And so we have a model society...a society that reflects the views of a past generation's society. Every "Condition" Perpetuates Itself, Due To Every "Condition's" Fear Of Change. Perhaps I am being a bit alarmist. Perhaps I have been influenced too greatly by George Orwell's "1984". Or perhaps I am seeing something here that others have known for ages, and I have only just seen it. I am not sure of that, but I am sure of this: I am just of voting age now in Australia, and if I could add my voice to those trying to convince politicians of the obvious truth here in the USA then I would. But Australia always has and probably always will continue to follow the path of the United States. Perhaps the only way for me to be able to share my thoughts with others will be to remain so unimportant that nobody could possibly be interested in me. Benjamin Grosman ------------------------------- Apologies to those who were forced to read a very rambling diatribe against this whole situation. I have tried to formulate my thoughts upon reading the news of the defeat into something at least slightly coherent. I will try at a later point to polish this up...

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New Additions to WOW-COM(TM)!
by wcreply＠ctia.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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HOT Summer IN White House
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This item is one of many such articles outlining the corruptions within Washington. Some of these corruptions are huge, and go far beyond simple pork-barreling. On a level with Watergate, it seems to many of us. I don't usually forward items from "talk.politics.crypto," as I assume many of you are already reading it. But this particular item fits with the "Washington as crime capital in more ways than one" them I've been hitting. Look especially for how favors were granted for high tech exports. --Tim > From: softwar(a)us.net (SOFTWAR) > Newsgroups: talk.politics.crypto,alt.politics.org.nsa,alt.politics.org.fbi,alt.politics.cia,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.datahighway,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican > Subject: HOT Summer IN White House > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:35:29 GMT > > It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton > administration. > > Wednesday night ABC Primetime did a special on Ron Brown's > girlfriend. The accusations flying around the dead Secretary > of Commerce do not bode well for the living inside the Beltway. > First, it seems that Ron acquired an offshore bank account with > nearly a million dollars deposited for him by the Government of > Vietnam. Vietnam wanted to normalize trade relations with the > US and bribing the top dog at Commerce certainly helped grease > the skids. Vietnam got their trade deal but Brown found out > that the FBI knew about his bank account. So he could not touch > the money. The bribery accusation is collaborated by an > ex-Vietnamese official who has also turned his evidence over to > the FBI. Mr. Brown's girlfriend plans to testify before both > the Senate and the House committees investigating wrongdoing in > the Clinton administration. > > Another revelation which should come as no shock is that the > First Lady put John Huang in the Commerce Department. This > demand apparently did not sit well with Mr. Brown, who, > according to his girlfriend, did not like Mrs. Clinton. It > seems that Ron's strong personality ran smack head on into > Hillarys demanding attitude. Yet, he bent over backward and > made sure that Huang was hustled into his government position, > complete with a secret clearance. Once Huang entered the > Commerce Department strange events really started to pop up. > The Commerce Department initially denied Huang had access to > anything important. It is now known that Huang attended dozens > of secret CIA briefings. Huang is alleged to have discussed > secret materials with his former employers at the Lippo group. > The allegations come from material obtained by taps on Huang's > Commerce Department telephone. > > Can the same be said for Ira Sockowitz? > > No. Ira Sockowitz was placed into his Commerce position > directly and personally by President Clinton. It was Ira > Sockowitz who ran Ron Borwn's airline seating arrangements, > between working on government affairs. Whenever Mr. Brown would > fly on a government sponsored trade trip - Ira would line up big > Corporate powers to ride along on the party plane. Mr. > Sockowitz had more experience as a DNC fund-raiser than security > software. Despite this lack of technical skills Mr. Sockowitz > entered the field of banking security software at Commerce. It > is the Commerce Department which approves or denies export of > such financial software. The amount of money involved, invested > and possible returns, are staggering. Obviously, the > push/pull/shove involved in getting such a product approved is > no easy task. Few export licenses have been issued and those > who have them are not too anxious for any others to join them. > > Just how easy was it to obtain such a privilege? Not very. Not > even Fortune 500 companies could obtain export rights from the > Commerce Department. Letters from IBM, Motorola, Digital, HP > and a host of other billion dollar firms clearly indicate their > unsuccessful efforts to obtain Commerce licenses to export their > products. > > However, letters from certain other companies are covered with > redacted notes which the Commerce Department refuses to release. > One letter to the Commerce Department in particular was faxed to > someone (also redacted) along with a memo on how to obtain a > "waiver" for export. Another set of Sockowitz documents being > withheld are a set of hand written notes on a conversation, a > three pages fax and two applications for license for export > dated 8/11/94. The Clinton administration will not say who sent > the fax nor will they say who Ira Sockowitz talked to. Yet, > clearly the topic was a license to export. A license that could > have been worth billions of dollars. > > It's going to be a long hot summer for the Clinton > administration. > > 1 if by land, 2 if by sea. Paul Revere - encryption 1775 > > Charles R. Smith > SOFTWAR > http://www.us.net/softwar > > Pcyphered SIGNATURE: > 5317BD5D86A9257B2048D1D80523D9ACF320DB56A078CA4EA62BABF7A43EBE6B > 2F5FB787CDEF242FA01EF13984F7071AC2B401DAD0010740F1F024C3CCF9D841 > 9760977F67662EEF

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Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
by geeman＠best.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

see http://www.vote-smart.org/congress/104/ma/ma-jr-a/ma-jr-af.html At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e. > >-Declan > > > > >

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by lvck1＠hotmail.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd)
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:17:35 -0400 From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger(a)cdt.org> To: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com>, sameer <sameer(a)c2.net> Cc: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill At 3:17 PM -0700 6/19/97, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Yes, it would have been possible for any and all senators on the commerce >committee to vote against *any and all* crypto bills that had key recovery >provisions. Um, ok. Can you explain your view? Poly Sci 101: McCain is the chairman of the committee, and as a result yields a lot of power over the agendas of all the committee members. When a member crosses the chairman, he or she takes a risk of not getting support for his or her priorities. If the chairman doesn't support your bill, it ain't gonna pass. Period. Chairman, on the other hand, don't like to loose. If they bring a bill to a vote, it's because they know they can win either by passing the bill or making a political statement. And the chairman holds all the cards in the deck. If a committee member disagrees with the chairman, and takes a risk by voting that way, he or she needs to have something to be *for*. Otherwise, he or she is just going to appear to be a big pain in the ass. It's very difficult in the real world to be *against* something but *for* nothing. Like it or not , and no matter how much we yell and scream about it, most members of Congress do not fully agree with your position and do not support complete and total de-control of encryption. While a lot of them support the SAFE approach (which I know you don't think goes far enough either) - neither the Commerce Committee members, or anyone else for that matter, are going to just stand up and say NO to their Chairman without having anything to be *for*. This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy. I am curious to hear your view on this. But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment: If we are going to have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to the overall equation and how the system actually works. We can do a lot to impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a different area code from reality. Jonah * Value Your Privacy? The Government Doesn't. Say 'No' to Key Escrow! * Adopt Your Legislator - http://www.crypto.com/adopt -- Jonah Seiger, Communications Director (v) +1.202.637.9800 Center for Democracy and Technology pager: +1.202.859.2151 <jseiger(a)cdt.org> http://www.cdt.org PGP Key via finger http://www.cdt.org/homes/jseiger/

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Re: Senate panel nixes ProCODE II, approves McCain-Kerrey bill
by David Downey 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

----Original Message Follows---- In the end, it was child pornography that derailed encryption legislation in the U.S. Senate and dealt a bitter defeat to crypto supporters. Spurred by the chairman's denunciations of cyberporn, a majority of the Senate Commerce Committee rejected ProCODE II this morning -- and instead approved a bill introduced earlier this week that creates new Federal crimes for some uses of crypto and an all-but-mandatory key escrow infrastructure. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), committee chair and chief sponsor of the measure, led the attack, saying Congress must "stop child pornography on the Internet and Internet gambling. These legitimate law enforcement concerns cannot and should not be overlooked or taken lightly." He warned that allowing encryption to be exported would permit child pornographers to use it. "If it's being used for child pornography? Are we going to say that's just fine? That's it's just business? I don't think so." Then Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-Tex.) chimed in, saying she doesn't want "children to have access to pornography or other bad types of information." Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO) tried to disagree. "It's like photography. We're not going to [ban] photography if someone takes dirty pictures." (At this point, one of the more deaf committee members asked, "Pornography? Are we going to ban pornography?") Between the child-porn attack team of senators McCain, Hollings, Kerry, and Frist, ProCODE sponsor Sen. Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) didn't stand a chance. Hunched over the microphone, Burns was outmaneuvered, outprepared, and outgunned on almost every point. Nevertheless, he introduced ProCODE II -- a so-called compromise measure -- and was defeated 8-12. The changes from ProCODE I gave the NSA, FBI, and CIA oversight over crypto exports and permitted only the export of up to 56-bit crypto products without key escrow. Products of any strength with key escrow could be exported freely. That's hardly a pro-privacy, pro-encryption bill, says the ACLU's Don Haines. "The ProCODE vote shows the political bankruptcy of the pro-business agenda. Even in the Commerce Committee, commerce arguments didn't work," he says. The committee also approved amendments proposed by Kerry that would give jurisdiction over crypto exports to a nine-member "Encryption Export Advisory Board." The panel would "evaluate whether [a] market exists abroad" and make non-binding recommendations to the president. Frist also introduced amendments to the McCain-Kerrey bill that were accepted: * Requiring that not any Federally-funded communications network, but only ones established "for transaction of government business" would use key escrow -- thereby jumpstarting the domestic market. * "Requirements for a subpoenas [sic] should be no less stringent for obtaining keys, then [sic] for any other subpoenaed materials." * Key recovery can mean recovering only a portion of the key "such as all but 40 bits of the key." * NIST after consulting with DoJ and DoD will "publish a reference implementation plan for key recovery systems;" the law will not take effect until the president tells Congress such a study is complete. After the vote, advocacy groups tried to put a good face on the devastating loss -- and an expensive defeat it was. After 15 months of lobbying, countless hearings, backroom dealmaking, and political capital spent, ProCODE is gutted and dead. "There's another day. We have confidence in the system," said BSA's Robert Holleyman. CDT's Jerry Berman said, "What is encouraging is that unlike the CDA other committees are getting involved." Of course, the involvement of other committees is only likely to add more key escrow provisions and limitations on crypto-exports. ProCODE's replacement -- the McCain-Kerrey bill -- now goes to the Senate Judiciary committee, and its chairman has already been talking about mandating key escrow in some circumstances... -Declan ==================================================================== Maybe I'm just paranoid, but doesn't this mean that it is now illegal to use anything over 56 bits in the US, and doesn't this give the US Government the unofficial green light to start cracking down on those of us that use encryption? All they gotta say is that they suspected that we were dealing in child pornography, based on the fact that they monitored encrypted messages leaving from our addresses? It's not that far of a leap in possibilities after everything else they've done. This is starting to get scary ladies and gentleman. I use 2048 bit encryption, does that make me a porn lover because I use that heavy of encryption,and encryption period? I feel some very bad days coming down the pike. I just hope that we can do something to stem the tide. --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Re: FYI: Who owns Sen. Kerrey (LONG)
by geeman＠best.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

yes, well McCain is pretty obvious - and Kerry is on the committee but so what? I was wondering what would motivate Kerrey-with-an-e and to whom he is beholden. Perhaps you could illuminate for us... At 02:14 PM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >I suggest you wonder about McCain and Kerry-without-the-e. > >-Declan > > > > >

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