December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by null＠myemail.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hallam-Baker wrote: > > Timothy C. May wrote: > > Political advocacy is one thing, but making threats, even veiled ones, is > > another matter. > > Absolutely, that is why I was keen for people to oppose Bell's views. Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How about the American Revolution? War of Independece? French Revolution? You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression. Perhaps Phill and Tim might want to take afternoon tea together and watch the tanks roll by, since Hitler only wants Austria... Poland...France...Britain........... I haven't noticed anyone on the list suggesting that they are going to wait to buy a gun until they hear a burglar/murderer coming through the window. If we are going to castigate someone for suggesting ways to take action against oppressive taxation, then perhaps we should call the Queen of England, tell her we're sorry for our forefather's error in judgement, and that we'll start flying the Union Jack again. > If his ramblings had gone unchallenged he would now be being > presented as a representative of Cypherpunk/ pro-crypto views. Excuse me? Only people whose views you personally approve of should be presented as a representative of cypherpunk views? I hate to burst your bubble, Phill, but everyone on the list is a representative of cypherpunk views and people outside the have a right to pick and choose the various viewpoints as they see fit. > some of my relatives are in government and have > had well publicised assasination attempts against them. So did Hitler and Mussolini. > I think that Bell's on-list comments may well have been protected > speech but I'm not sure about his off list comments. Then why bring it up? To cast vague aspersions? > I think that Bell's posts were entirely different from Tim's or > for that matter almost every other person on the list. Tim > demonstrated that a covert information sales organisation was > possible with Blacknet but he never advocated setting it up. So you're calling Tim a blowhard who likes to play at anarchy but lacks the balls to propose anything concrete? * {* DisinfoTranslation Technique (c) Greg Broiles} > Indeed part of the point was the ethical responsibilities. Bell > on the other hand was likely to respond to any post with his > AP piece. I have throughout considered these to be incitement to > murder. Your own propensity for murderous thoughts in no way reflects on other individual's interpretations of Jim Bell's intentions. Certainly Jim Bell tended to answer questions such as, "What day is it?" with a speech on AP, but what do hashcash programmers discuss? Hashcash. What does anyone talk about? The things they have an active interest in? So what's your point? > It seems quite likely that Bell may have made a statement to an > IRS official that in the context of his authoring the AP piece > may have constituted a threat. It seems quite likely that Hallam-Baker is inventing facts which don't exist because he is being paid to do so in order to do a character assassination on Jim Bell. Anyone else want to jump in with off-the-wall claims about what is "likely" and what is not? It seems to me that many list members have their heads further up their ass than the Feds, since they don't even view Bell's threats serious enough to even arrest him. They are on a simple fishing expedition to try to find a cause to harrass him into shutting the fuck up. A *true fact* (rather than vague bullshit about what is "likely") is that John Perry's remailer *was* used to send direct threats to a government official. So, Tim and Phill, which one of you wants to step up to the plate and be the first one to attempt to ostracize him so that his views about the need for anonymous communications will not be taken as representative of the cypherpunks views? Or is Perry's implementation of a system that can be abused to be allowed while Bell's theoretical design of a system to fight oppression is not to be allowed? Does the government wait until the enemies missles are launched to start preparing plans for defence and counter-attack? It is outright riduclous to suggest that individuals and groups should act otherwise, and contrary to their own self-interest. Government and corporate entities are regularly castigated on the cypherpunks list as thugs who must be dealt with in one manner or another. Various levels of action are suggested in relation to the severity of the infringement on our interests. Jim Bell's pet project was to work on a solution for problems which reached the point of requiring the ultimate action--total removal of the threat. Each cypherpunk had his or her own views of what constituted a problem of that magnitude. To suggest that any cypherpunk should not be allowed to express his or her opinion in regard to who his solution might apply to, and why, is not much different than saying that none of our discussions should address specific issues, only generalities. This is akin to saying that we cannot mention older people, or sick people, when discussing euthanasia. Excuse me, but someone is shooting at me. I need to go buy a gun... TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************

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Hallam-Baker messes himself.
by null＠myemail.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hallam-Baker, pissing all over his own train of logic, wrote: > It is because Bell's scheme is entirely preposterous that Digital > cash is possible. There is simply no way an AP contract could be > enforced. > No country could allow such a betting pool to operate from its soil, > nor any other such cover. > > I will not only refuse to support Bell, I'll testify against him in > court if asked. What are you going to testify to? To Bell's scheme not being a threat to anybody because it would never work? That it is nothing more than a theoretical exercise which does not present a danger to a single soul? That it is preposterous of the government to prosecute someone on the basis of a pie-in-the-sky, preposterous idea? I'm certain the government is anxiously awaiting your testimony, as well as that of a number of others on the list who seem to think that Jim Bell is such a powerful and evil force that his mere thoughts and speculations are an overwhelming threat to civilization as we know it. Everyone who thinks they can implement Jim Bell's AP system in the near future, raise both hands. Now bend over backwards, placing your head near your rectum. Now... TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************

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Re: Jim Bell raid
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I asked Jim last night if he wanted any of the documents associated with the raid published and he said not yet: That the local papers were publishing selected parts to inflame reader lust. That the feds had set it all in motion with lurid affidavits, with press invitation, with paraded troops and battle armaments to fit the show and tell tinhorn war gamers seeking more funding -- tax time at hand. He seems bemused that his script was followed so dutifully for Act 1. And awaits the next acts, instigated not only by his taunts but by the national campaign to divert attention from TLA/LEA snafus. In this spirit, for a truly homicidal, bloodstirring script read the National Defense Authorization Act for 1998: http://jya.com/nda98.txt Now that's Assassination Politics to feed the lust of the best and brightest of all nations, if not that of a few of the overmuch AP protestors here. Jim's telephone number: 1-360-686-3911 For a reality check compare Jim to the world's presidents, parliaments, high-tech industrialists, spies and media infowar gamers trying valiantly to alarm the Disney-narcotized citizenry.

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US Domestic GAK
by Steve 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Has Anyone heard about this????? sorrin privsoft(a)ix.netcom.com Clinton administration has new encryption proposal Network World via Individual Inc. : Washington, D.C. For months the Clinton administration has lobbied for its version of key escrow that largely focused on encryption export. Now in its first formal legislative document, the White House is asking that its policy also apply to data encrypted within U.S. borders and that law enforcement be given access to that data based on a simple request from a law enforcement or government security agency. The U.S. Attorney General will set up the specific rules for written authorization. Civil liberties groups highly critical of the White House plan pointed out that under the basic guidelines it will be easier for law enforcement to get encryption keys than to tap phones, which requires a warrant or court order. The administration does not just face domestic opposition to its proposed policy. The international community, represented by the 29-nation Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), also has not rallied behind the Clinton cause. After a year of study and intense lobbying by the U.S. Justice Department, the OECD, based in Brussels, Belgium, last week released the ``Cryptography Policy Guidelines,'' an eight-point document that recognizes nations may want to have access to cryptographic keys or un-scrambled plaintext. But the OECD guidelines fall far short of recommending key recovery as the preferred international approach. Some participants in the OECD crypto-policy effort were pleased with its outcome, including Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center here. ``There's a strong emphasis here on privacy and voluntary market guidelines,'' Rotenberg said. The OECD guidelines state that users should have a choice in cryptography, that cryptography should be driven by business requirements, and that the privacy of personal data and the secrecy of communications should be respected. Congressional cold shoulder So far, no legislators on Capitol Hill have embraced the ideas in the administration-drafted legislation, the Electronic Data Security Act of 1997, which also calls for nationally certified key-recovery centers for storing copies of encryption keys. ``From our point of view, it's a breathtaking expansion of law enforcement's surveillance au-thority,'' said Alan Davidson, staff counsel at the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) about the draft bill. The CDT has posted the bill on its Web site, www.cdt.org. Commerce Department Un-der Secretary William Reinsch, whose office took the lead in drafting the bill, last week had no comment. The draft bill emphasizes that the key-recovery regulation is voluntary in the U.S., but opponents argue otherwise. The White House draft defines as the federal standard only digital certificates that work with key-recovery encryption products. And under the drafted bill, employees working in a government-certified key-recovery center would be spared any civil or criminal liabilities for disclosing decrypted information to a government agency. Through the economic in-centives and regulatory impact of the Clinton administration bill, ``they plan to severely limit [the products] you can choose from,'' according to Jim Bidzos, president of RSA Data Security, Inc., whose public-key technology is widely deployed in encryption products. ``The intent is to discourage the use of strong, unescrowed encryption in the U. S.'' [Copyright 1997, Network World]

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for a New World Order, and wrote: > I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have > been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of > communication. ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet? > I don't believe that people > are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not our own? Or not fight at all? It sounds to me like Jim Bell isn't the only one on the list with his own drug lab. Did you bring enough for everybody, Phill? <earlier> > Who decides what "innocent" was? <now> > Bells plan would lead to murder of innocent people. Well, I guess that now we know *who* decides. Send me a list of the "innocent" people, Phill, and I'll put them in the blocking list on my AP-Bot. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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News from the Front
by ForeFront 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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by Mid West Electronics 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for >a New World Order, and wrote: Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order". ... They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan. The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam. Must be in deep, deep cover. >> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have >> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of >> communication. > ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet? I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed. >> I don't believe that people >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not >our own? Or not fight at all? I think that before you murder someone because you think they are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial arbitrator. Phill

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy C. May <tcmay(a)got.net> wrote in article <5i3tpu$86h(a)life.ai.mit.edu>... > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null(a)myemail.net wrote: > > > Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How > >about the American Revolution? War of Independece? French Revolution? > > You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People > >who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression. If you care to read the history of the times from unbiased sources you will find that the Boston patriots main gripe with Britain was not the tax on tea but the insistence of the British authorities on negotiating with the Sioux nation amongst others. It was the fear that the British would sign a peace treaty with the Indians recognising them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime. Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of about quarter of a million people they cannot be said to be entirely laudatory events. The national myths of the countries concerned nothwithstanding. People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right" to own others as property. > Note that I've never called for a witch hunt, nor have I called for his > posts to be censored out of the list. I chose a long time ago to filter > Jim's stuff into my appropriate folder for such stuff, and occasionally > took him out of the filter when he seemed (from occasional checks on what I > was filtering), to be discussing things other than his "Klaatu Narada > Nictoo" (or whatever) Final Solution. Same for me. I objected to Bell's AP proposal but not to his _right_ to post it. It was the tedious length at which he bored the rest of us with it that I objected to. Last I heard the Feds were concerned that he might have been putting AP into effect. Collecting the names and addresses of IRS officials, setting up a kangeroo court to try them, sending them demands, those sound like actions Bell would have serious difficulty in doing without giving someone reasonable cause to believe they were being targetted for murder. Phill

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > > Jim is hardly the ideal poster boy for a free speech cause, but we should > > not distance ourselves from him when he runs into problems directly > > related to his advocacy of anonymous markets. That cuts too closely > > for comfort. We should defend Jim's right to discuss AP and any other > > institutions which may arise as a natural consequence of the capabilities > > engendered by cryptography. That is one of the main things this list is > > for. If they can silence Jim, it's going to be just a matter of time befor > > they go after someone else. > > I really cannot understand the posts I have been reading to the > effect that Jim Bell is a "loon" or a "terrorist" etc... > If we do not protect the freedom of expression of the loons, fuckups, > terrorists and Bells of this world it will be our freedom that is > threatened next. As far as I know, anyway, Jim`s AP essay (the > original plan overview) was perfectly sane and discussed the problems > of people using it to commit crime by killing an innocent person as > well as the advantagest of the plan. > I will allow that some of his subsequent posts have been a little > "loon" like but I have never considered him to be a foaming at the > mouth madman as some do. Someone said: "popular speech does not need protection". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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