December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attila T. Hun wrote: > on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> said: > +Simple, but.... In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the > +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim? Both the Rodney > +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you > +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions. > you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that > *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for > years that everyone is equal. yeah, right! > therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by > attorneys calling up racism. yeah, right! It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a (I suppose) victory salute. I didn't care to watch the charade in Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better. > as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away > permanently. I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation, which was fair to the officers. It was stated by Koon and one of the other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were. > Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in > the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost > 24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits > with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until > found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the > family should be punished as well. we wont even bother with the > issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights > trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except > Powell who they hung on. they had a clear right to try Powell, > noone else. It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky, writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the Times, which is usually bad enough. BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy. Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother. Two bozos if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much about their newspaper editorial policy. > and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a > very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came > out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell. by the time > the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the > witnesses, nobody told the truth. The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials. The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to contradictory descriptions they've given before. Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to indict Simpson. I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case, where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but maybe there's something on the internet.... > Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled > substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized > for what he was --and easily identified. Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust. I heard first hand from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming. If a .38 won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy. It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so with a couple of K-9's... > in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you > start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no > stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or > 'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, > except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop. When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and weighed 120 lbs. I weighed 130 when I came out. I guess I could have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity. In any case, I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King, so I lean toward the cops as much as I can. BTW (and speaking of stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45 went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders. > and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the > LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial. I dont > know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or > just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news. > or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of > the oppressive whiteface? Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune. Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil, Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the- scene experience in the JFK killing. Remember Netanyahu, who spent all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and take command in a crisis? Well, he did, and have you seen any recent pictures of him? Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary. Big, big money. > it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when > you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of > them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west > Valley, what was horse country when I lived there. they had a job > to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half > of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems. > Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline > hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of > the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was > double decked. > Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's > bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box > and dock in between. yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; > take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors. > perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his > actions. [heh heh] The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace. And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the city really clean. No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under Mayor Riordan. Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess. Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged. Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something. Funny that when he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao. [remainder snipped]

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Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails, and I'm still digging through the old ones.) Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Toto wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely > > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to > > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least > > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example > > > > of the delusion of grandeur). Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him. > OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird. It broke my heart when > those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her. You just > can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians > love the money better than the women. Must be a bunch of homosexuals. I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge. > Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore, > possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island. > You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd > richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs, > and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company. Did you know that did wife was Russian? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself > > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially > > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses > > they could ever hope to use any day of the week. > Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks > list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'? > Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his > postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing > the list? Life is too complicated, ya' know? I just wanna know who is this PATTI SHOCK <shock(a)nevada.edu> person, who's allegedly calling for a moderation of some forum on Usenet. The way I see it, if she's a real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material just to keep her happy. Then just let some really mean, dirty material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff. OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?

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Re: Cryptanalysis
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com> > To: Scott Auge <scotta(a)sauge.com> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis > At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the > >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES. If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you > >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish. > > Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with > lots and lots of results. It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries, > because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-) Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K' from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy. There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it. [...] > The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work > by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very > efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys > in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple > change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/ > decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.) It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC), it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and > works better on bit-twiddliing chips. There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, which is already underway. Peter Trei trei(a)process.com PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?

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Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself > > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially > > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses > > they could ever hope to use any day of the week. > Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks > list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'? > Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his > postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing > the list? Life is too complicated, ya' know? I just wanna know who is this PATTI SHOCK <shock(a)nevada.edu> person, who's allegedly calling for a moderation of some forum on Usenet. The way I see it, if she's a real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material just to keep her happy. Then just let some really mean, dirty material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff. OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?

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Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails, and I'm still digging through the old ones.) Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Toto wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely > > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to > > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least > > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example > > > > of the delusion of grandeur). Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him. > OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird. It broke my heart when > those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her. You just > can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians > love the money better than the women. Must be a bunch of homosexuals. I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge. > Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore, > possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island. > You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd > richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs, > and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company. Did you know that did wife was Russian? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Bryce 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net>" typed: > > (Getting PGP integrated into mailers > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP > support painless?) Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer interface is even worse. Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface. In contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to the course of history than the clumsy and feckless machinations of government agencies. But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my ".plan". Regards, Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names might appear in the headers of this message, or who might occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my brilliant software design work. PGP sig follows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2 iQB1AwUBMwxxPkjbHy8sKZitAQFkwwL+Pmpv70F4mN+G58gnZj0a8nH6omppzucN CxMSw2iFc/rBcCQGoNO1Bx42TEShypN4HyBqrR49NEkJhihZ4dSfQB2FGsTZyFE0 P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P =CCQx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote: > >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- > >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky, > >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- > >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state > >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of > >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the > >Times, which is usually bad enough. > Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a > concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy > jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual > sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually > used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible > that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every > bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding? My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational problem solving. Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history. I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked at this. One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to "make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.

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Re: Cryptanalysis
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com> > To: Scott Auge <scotta(a)sauge.com> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis > At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the > >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES. If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you > >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish. > > Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with > lots and lots of results. It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries, > because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-) Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K' from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy. There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it. [...] > The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work > by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very > efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys > in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple > change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/ > decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.) It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC), it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and > works better on bit-twiddliing chips. There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, which is already underway. Peter Trei trei(a)process.com PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?

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FWD: (CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state)
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tell me what this has to do with cryptography, and I'll give you a nickle. Or, maybe not... ;-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:47 -0600 Reply-To: "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE(a)american.edu> Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU> From: "Dr. Jeffrey A. Schaler" <JSCHALE(a)american.edu> Organization: The American University Subject: CHANGE: NUVUPSY - Against the therapeutic state To: NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU NVVUPSY has moved to a new server and has a new E-mail address. NUVUPSY on LISTSERV(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU "Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth of the Therapeutic State. This is perhaps the major implication of psychiatry as an institution of social control." (Thomas Szasz, 1963) NUVUPSY is a forum to share points of view critical of the "therapeutic state" and institutional psychiatry, and those supportive of contractual psychotherapy and psychiatry. We're interested in discussions concerning the relationship between liberty and responsibility and its implications for clinical, legal, and public policy. The list will serve to promote alternative views to explaining unwanted behaviors. Sociological perspectives on the medicalization of deviant behavior are welcome. Other topics for discussion include but are not limited to: The myth of addiction as a disease; the ideology of biological determinism; the obsolescence of the schizophrenia hypothesis; coerced treatment for addiction and First Amendment rights; criticism of psychiatric drug prescriptions; etc. NUVUPSY Board of Advisors include: Bruce K. Alexander, Phil Brown, Robert C. Carson, David J. Essex, Louis B. Fierman, Robert E. Haskell, Reid Klion, James C. Mancuso, Roberta Russell, Theodore R. Sarbin, Jeffrey A. Schaler, and Richard E. Vatz. Archives of NUVUPSY mail items are kept in monthly files. You may obtain a list of files in the archives by sending the command INDEX NUVUPSY in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU (NUVU as in "new view", V=vee) To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail to LISTSERV(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU SUBSCRIBE NUVUPSY yourfirstname yourlastname Owner: Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D. jschale(a)american.edu Martin W. Smith mws(a)metis.no NUVUPSY List Coordinators ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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