December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attila T. Hun wrote: > on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> said: > +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: > +> In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make > +> perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_. > +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, > +between a "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy." Maybe you were trying > +to distinguish between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and > +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a majority)" but it didn't come out > +very understandably. Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order. > +It is the lack of _orders_." > disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy > implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility. I don't know where these implications come from. Start with a primitive example, such as animals in the wild. Is that a perfect anarchy? Where do the differences come in for humans? Are they neo-religious perceptions, which could never find universal agreement? Or are they set in stone, in immutable, universal laws?

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Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
by snow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: > >on or about 970204:0312 Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> said: > >+ Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for > >+ good use of resources? > Actually, it is quite possible that an "anarchic community" is _more_ > efficient in the use of resources than some sort of organized community. > It is explained, for example, that the reason there are so many different > kinds of life on earth is that there are so many ecological niches to fill. Good does not necessarily mean efficient, and efficient does not necessarily mean good. Picture--if you can--the "perfect" centrally planned economy where all possible market conditions, wants and needs are taken into account. Factories are placed optimally for access to natural resources and distribution to consumers etc. Also assume that the people running this society _are_ intersted in efficient production methods, and activly look for new and better ways of getting things done--benign facism/socialism if you will. This would (assuming perfect people, but bear with me) be the _most efficient_ method of producing and delivering goods, but it would introduce certain "choke points", one natural disaster or war could cripple production of necessary items. Picture anarchy, massively redundant, and resistent to this problem, while probably not anywhere _near_ as efficient, this "system" would have the ability to absorb damage and adapt more rapidly to changing enviroments. > No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong. See AP part 8. Freud > believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) that anarchy > was inherently unstable. But it ISN'T, if the tools of AP are used to Stable is a relative thing. Are things stable now? If you think so, you either aren't looking very hard, or you are giving "stable" a wide range.

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

bite your penis. /_/\/\ \_\ / Tim C[reep] May /_/ \ \_\/\ \ \_\/

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Re: pgpmail 4.5
by Alex de Joode 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Huge Cajones Remailer sez: : you wrote: : There is a pgpmail45.exe at ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/replay/pub/incoming. : The file has an md5 sum of 'ffd56d7647c30152a5c9fe7616a3d9ef'. : i downloaded the same. md5 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b : can someone clear this up? [usura@basement]:/pub/ftp/pub/crypto/incoming {22}$ md5 pgpmail45.exe 5ea438501d0133f0849c2fe8f9125b6b pgpmail45.exe -- -AJ-

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Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com> writes: > Anil Das <das(a)sgi.com> writes: > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer. > > > > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but > > seats are available only in fall. > > Toilet seats in the state of free fall? > > The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind... And Sandy blows Sameer, and Greg blows John... --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Ben 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me, > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later, > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them. > > > > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list. > > I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly. > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of > each line. > It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored > list. Ahh...Sorry for the flame. You're obviously not a native English speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins). Native English speakers however have no right to poor English. PS: The word you want is STILL characterize. Ben. ____ Ben Samman..................................................ben(a)edelweb.fr Paris, France Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > > > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as > > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in > > > > > fact drunk, watch out! > > > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm > > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though. > > > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-) > > > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial > > > parties last night. It made the craps table action seem a bit > > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too. > > > I like an occasional Coors Lite. BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about > > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV. > > Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at > the hotel had two choices: Bud regular and Coors light. I took the > Coors. I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the politically correct distributors. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote: > > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me, > > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later, > > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them. > > > > > > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice > > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is > > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to > > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of > > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list. > > > > I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly. > > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of > > each line. > > It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored > > list. Touche! S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: > I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about > to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing > things with a group of people over the course of several years and then > disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything > more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree > with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to > other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can > still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can. > I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a > good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get > bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about > the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group of people of one time period. It was designed for everyone, and to evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd. The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge. But nearly everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal- to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has also removed much of what was interesting. Remove the control and incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far, and some of that interest may return. Perhaps more importantly, if the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way, that would restore even more confidence in the list.

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Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
by Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

For a more, um, nuanced view see http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm == The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin(a)law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here.

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