December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Several people wrote: >I wrote: >>ObCrypto policy: >> Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >>the government. [...] > >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this, >Marshall? What was the subject? What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly? > After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at what he was saying. (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary) But, here a brief overview of the luncheon: Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches". The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were: Whit Diffie John Gilmore Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State) Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study) Marc Rotenberg William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche) and a couple others that I missed, as I left early. Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech. He said that the government is going to crack down on domestic possession and use of crypto, that they were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities 100-fold, and so on. He was very emphatic about not trusting anything that the government says, and that once they got their "foot in the door", that they would seek to expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc. He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He insisted that there was no way the government could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations, and to lobby their congresscritters to get the PRO-CODE bill passed. It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed accountant who was representing a large corporation whose job it is to help people obey the government. [ My father was an accountant. He worked for Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants to be passionate about government regs, and especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe that's why this affected me so strongly. ] -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

2 1

I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
by Larry Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I would:> Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!) Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it. Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will. Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what I said. Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff. I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do. I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them with penis-pictures. I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me. I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make people look. I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that I want them to believe. {My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_ when he boots it up} <::>I want everyone to believe<::> :>I had to save the list cause it was sick. My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list" :>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy. My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS" :>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list. My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL." :>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont :>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples :>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses :>bad words. My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY :>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship. My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) "CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION ...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION :>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list. My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people really called dictatorship and stealing. "MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP "APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL. :>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership. My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market" guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the "SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT" :>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done then the email won't run on time. My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..." are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS... If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page and the home pages of two crazy guys. My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over. I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list that is censored by my guy and my autobot. I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the cypherpunks is one of my guys. Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh? (But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying, "You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...) Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer). You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something from a kid, huh? My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone doesnt like what they say. He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing and dont want anyone to know about it. He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not good guys.) I like you guys. Dont bend over for the lamers. Dont start to cry. Just keep on being flamers. Bitch and shout. Dont worry about the schisms. And dont let the Fascists take Your algorithms. Lamers come and go So dont worry bout their junk Anarchists have <Delete> keys They're Immortal CypherPunks. I have to go get killed now. Human Gus-Peter grandson of gomez

1 0

Re: Silly Americans
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote: >>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate >>algorithms? (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?) At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed? Okay, I can accept that ... >Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things? This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy. >Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition? Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive. Pure competition is great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition. >Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors >of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so? No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations is good for the economy. It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was produced, someone patented it. It then evolved into Excel. Now, no one else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the rights. There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic spreadsheet has to use Excel. This would be great for Microsoft, but horrible for everyone else. Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc, etc, etc. The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be gearing up to produce their own products. Competition is a *good* thing. You can't evolve without it ... _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior Programmer achieved Enlightenment.

1 0

New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjs0lOTpEThrthvAQHrnQP8CRmcUbp5fndiFyfTdDXmmMYNHj7wteBG 8S9kw1J9TnDpjaXI5fy+OXzX7UthDjO5HznmBjx/iv4ozZ6d5SnNiKFyRGSok3lB +o6EovbYtp1fUZ7JzDF/0fqCn5vs/v5LetIDYSNrAjz6utiFk0/Lfh9VQyu/FlJq +R4+H/UC+bw= =qlqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Sorry!!
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN 8+xvb184UfE= =sSG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Against Moderation wrote: >> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not >> completely trivial. > >Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? > I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling) subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list. One problem I have is in transit, how many messages did I loose? Since the moderated list is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages, I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of messages that he had already sent out. I thought about subscribing for about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account hitting its maximum kB limit. I don't have any filters, scripts, or other, and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).

1 0

ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Hugh Daniel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting When: Saturday February 8th, 1997 Where: Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California Agenda: 11:++ setup, gossip, face feeding etc. 12:00 USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc. 13:00 PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc. 14:00 Break 14:30 Announcements, late breaking news, etc. 15:00 The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent 16:00 Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc. 17:00 This hour left bank for future expansion... Dinner: 18:30 Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA (All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...) Directions: Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA. A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will be held is at: http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html General directions: - From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. - From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad parking lot. Host: Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch(a)stanford.edu> and to Stanford University for providing the space for this months meeting. Notes: We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work as the case may be...). We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc. If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the month to do so!

2 1

Sorry!!
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN 8+xvb184UfE= =sSG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjtk1OTpEThrthvAQEY9QP/RAmfhG6yF0xRQn23XgXhnVxQIMexnEIw SS3WNj8hHIS5TAT06AsjFLrcBGPqkN612XiYrkGAtgXLQfPuevxGrtDRdGesYzGH kz5+exvxW3BOuVokQs7TZLoQQzSq5WbmfdoG1UZ6aSXPQ1gE6c/Hwgx8R/Z4Os9I xZP07vWyryc= =bPEB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
by Ian Goldberg 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199702030626.WAA14616(a)toad.com>, Vin McLellan <vin(a)shore.net> wrote: > Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors, >almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it. >(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the >unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared >12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was >something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!" > > (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at >Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however. I think there is a >description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very >efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project. >More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the >possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space. His attack >was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific >element in the RC5 crypto architecture.) Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs (by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors. The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use it at all. I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations as regular TCP/IP clients. I started them by simply logging in to each machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate). - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71 dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL 5DuLvpofRFs= =ly1x -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0