December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Credentials without Identity--Race Bits
by Three Blind Mice 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 20 Dec 1996, Vangelis wrote: > Bill Stewart wrote: > > I've heard that in less civilized parts of the world you're actually > > required to carry government-issued ID cards to walk down the street > > or fly on airplanes. > > Umm.. tried to get on a flight without having ID lately? Doesn't work - > against policy. Anti-terrorism policy and all.. it's for your own > safety, of course. But my dear Vangelis, that's exactly what Bill is talking about. --3bmice

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Re: Dale defends free society from the NSApunks (was Re: Encryption ?
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Graham-John Bullers <real(a)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes: > Problem with sex? No, thank you, Graham. Stick you alt.2600.moderated (an even lamer forum than thew "cypher punks" mailing list, if you can imagine that). > > http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~real/index.html > > : real(a)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca > Graham-John Bullers email > : ab756(a)freenet.toronto.on.ca --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Ebonics
by Mark Rosen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > There are several problems with your argument: > > * You are making glaring generalizations regarding all members of an > > ethnic body; you don't seem to realize that intellect is based not on color > > or how you talk but on your brain (which has the same color and other basic > > properties in all humans, I believe) > > That would be your generalization. Nowhere did anyone ever say that _all_ > black people speak "Ebonics". I don't see why someone should hire someone if > they can't even understand what that person is saying. Besides, I would > suspect that a reasonably intelligent person would know how to speak correct > English or at least make an attempt to do so. Especially in the computer field, language is irrelevant; as long as someone can "speak" C++ or HTML, they're fine. > > * You are completely forgetting the other "non-English" group in America; > > the so-called White Trash or heavy Southern accents, which are violate just > > as many prissy and stuck up rules of grammar as Ebonics > > No mention was made of "White Trash". You're drawing an invalid conclusion. Yes, though your same discrimination rules apply to "White Trash." I want to see if your language discrimination applies only to black Ebonics or to the white Southern twang also. > > I also think that you are forgetting about the human aspect of your > > discrimination. For a second, put yourself in the place of a really smart > > black guy applying for a job at Intel. He is overqualified for the job. You > > There is a logical correlation between intelligence and being able to follow > English grammatical rules. Not really. America is an incredibly diverse place. There are parts of the country where correct English-speaking people are minorities; if you've grown up in one of these places, you'll speak the native dialect no matter how smart or stupid your are. > Crypto will allow people to actively discriminate against whomever they wish. > It will also allow those who would be discriminated against to protect > information about themselves to prevent discrimination. I don't support > discrimination based on race, but language is a completely different matter. Spoken language, which is what you're discriminating against is vastly different from typed language. Everyone types pretty much the same way but everyone speaks differently. People who speak in Ebonics or with a Southern twang often know the rules of grammar, as expressed in writing, but they do not speak "correctly" because they are not accustomed to doing so. > P.S. Spelling and grammar flames will be ignored. What?! How can you say this? According to your position, it is my right to flame you because, as a better grammarian and orthographer, I am more intelligent than you and you should know this. In fact, your viewpoint can be extrapolated to say that anyone who make a grammar or spelling mistake in any message should be thrown off the list becuase they are not intelligent.

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RE: Reflections on the Bernstein ruling
by Blake Coverett 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > In brief, Judge Patel ruled that Category XIII(b) (the category which > refers to cryptographic equipment/software) is unconstitutional because it > functions as a prior restraint upon speech without providing important > procedural safeguards which are required when a prior restraint scheme is > put into place. She ruled that the "technical data" provision of the ITAR > is also unconstitutional when it refers to technical data about Category > XIII(b) items because of the lack of procedural safeguards. I'm not even remotely a lawyer, but I have to disagree with the second sentence above. As I read it Judge Patel believes that the technical data provisions are also unconstitutional but can not rule that way because United States v. Edler, 579 F.2d 516 (9th Cir. 1978) is the law in the 9th circuit. The relevant quote is: While this court is inclined to agree, despite revisions to the ITAR since 1984 and especially in light of Freedman and FW/PBS, Edler remains the law of this Circuit and this court is bound by its holding.[13] Moreover, Edler was reaffirmed, albeit in cursory fashion, by the Ninth Circuit in 1989. United States v. Posey, 864 F.2d 1487, 1496 (9th Cir. 1989). If the Ninth-Circuit wants to reconsider those opinions it is free to do so, but that decision is theirs to make. Happily she does go on to say that because she has ruled that Category XIII(b) is unconstitutional that the technical data provisions for items relating to XIII(b) are unenforceable. regards, -Blake

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RE: The Ebonic Plague
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Timothy C. May Democracy has run amok in this country. There is no hope for reforming at the ballot box, as democracy only makes things worse. Only a crypto reign of terror can purge this land of the scum. ...................................................... Just how would this take shape in "real life" - what would constitute this reign of terror; how do you envision such an event in action? And which are the scum who would be purged? .. Blanc

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EBONIC.ORG
by Chuck 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lets stop complaining and do something to promote dialectic harmony. How about an online Ebonics/English dictionary? Yesterday, I acquired the domain <ebonic.org> for this purpose (ebonics.org and com were already assigned). In the spirit of inter-dialectic cooperation, I hereby offer it for use as an online dictionary. This is, of course, a time-consuming effort to both design and maintain, so offers of help will be greatly appreciated. It seems to me that a guestbook-type function might be the best way to allow interested parties to add words, their definitions and pronunciation guides to the dictionary. What do you think? We might want to consider an opportunity for illustrations too. It seems to me that many of the Ebonics expressions I've heard are emphasized through the use of gestures - often with multiple digits pointing in various directions. In order not to be seen as uncaring, I think it would be nice to ask the Oakland School District to help. After all, if anyone should know the dialect, it would be them. Of course, this will be an ongoing effort, considering that the dialect will change with each new malapropism spouted by some thirteen-year-old rap star with a learning disability. Lets be clear about this. It will certainly be in the best interest of every American citizen to understand Ebonics. Had this issue been raised prior to the last election, my guess is that we would have all heard Clinton campaigning in Ebonics. Without an understanding of Ebonics, or a translator, we might not have been able to understand him. Think of what we would have missed! And that's not all. Suppose that while stopped at a traffic light, an Ebonics speaker approaches your car to ask to borrow it. He says something on the order of "gheeowtdakamuthafucka!". You respond with "say what?". Bingo, what we got here is a failure to communicate. The next thing you know, you're shouting at each other. Pretty soon, shots are fired and a crowd gathers around your car. The car begins to rock, glass begins to break. You are arrested for leaving the scene of an accident and for violating the civil rights of the Ebonics speaker. All because you didn't take the time to understand his language. Having an unabridged Ebonics/English Dictionary available on the net could help to save untold numbers of people from having such an experience. I hope the site will be up in a week or so, in the meantime, you may communicate via the list or directly to me at <chuck(a)ebonic.org>. Remember, we be needin yo hep.

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RE: The Ebonic Plague
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Timothy C. May Democracy has run amok in this country. There is no hope for reforming at the ballot box, as democracy only makes things worse. Only a crypto reign of terror can purge this land of the scum. ...................................................... From: Blanc Just how would this take shape in "real life" - what would constitute this reign of terror; how do you envision such an event in action? And which are the scum who would be purged? ...................................................... Follow precedents of the anarchist tradition: Name a target, build a bomb, light a fuse, heave it, run like hell -- into manacles of the provocateur's payers, then to gallows. Wait a generation, repeat.

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Re: Ebonics
by Matthew J. Miszewski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:01 PM 12/20/96 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: >Yeah, Matt, in a free society I wouldn't have to "speak Ebonics." > Are you talking about the School Board requirements? Are you still in High School, Tim? ;-) I have never heard you speak of children, so you might have a valid complaint if you have them in public schools (although home schooling is still an option). [Tim's Critique of currently failing attempts at social justice elided] I realize you dont agree with the tactics of some black leaders in this country, but I dont understand why you have this need to cloak your arguments in such antagonizing language. You, of course, are free to do so, I just find it counter-productive albeit sometimes humourous. Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMrx3kbpijqL8wiT1AQE8MgP/dQIEwHGQJK68+dXjTD1Tfpc+ll/cRw59 h8bidDczb0eTqcE9SliY+3D+0eUx4OcYOR3HsKcEQjFl5vgVpUeqaywpnh9clHBU QOLLqCpGw1plNzqjzZNc7e0SsCvVudpv93jDJdPInF/MHELxflhAJ32DRfIyt90Q ry0EvNMfAnc= =00J2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Privtool 0.87
by Alex de Joode 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mark Grant sez: : I've finally released a new version of Privtool -- my PGP-aware X-windows : mailreader for Linux, SunOS, FreeBSD and Solaris. Version 0.86 is : available on utopia.hacktic.nl in the incoming directory (and possibly : elsewhere) and I'll be uploading 0.87 shortly. For more details and : screenshots see http://www.c2.org/~mark/privtool/privtool.html. : Mark It is available from: (utopia.hacktic.nl = ftp.replay.com) ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/pgp/utils/privtool/ ftp.replay.com/pub/replay/pub/pgp/utils/pgptools/ bEST Regards, -- Alex de Joode http://www.replay.com/people/adejoode I have a linux emulator for Win95: it's called "loadlin" ... *g*

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Re: Ebonics
by Matthew J. Miszewski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:02 PM 12/21/96 -0500, Mark M. wrote: [snip] >There is a logical correlation between intelligence and being able to follow >English grammatical rules. Why is it that personal freedom, sometimes expressed by choice of dialect or language, seemingly has such arbitrary limits? Many on the list complain that they are subject to too many rules, and yet, seem to chime in on multi-linugual issues in this way. Crypto angle, here? Much of Ebonics has been based upon a need or desire to communicate in a private way. "5-0" was initiated as a way to communicate the presence of a police officer. Surely, we are not arguing against the development of a low-level way to scramble language. Or in fact, are you arguing that attempts to curtail the police should *not* be encouraged? This seems odd coming from some members of the list (Collapse of Governments and all) ;-). Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMrx7eLpijqL8wiT1AQGfmAQAnwxX/ks/LmKIrvSZi1q7PfjlU3n+/rob 05JSMNl8Qg5sj7Xsd/mdxvVwIUWd3mzz3PCyr1CKSDNVsE9miSYwnIoWCRkxOzle dJUdEAACFX5csk/rpGMWTBpxyucmPfSugt9o6bikVWAP7Gh6YSIJobvQh6KvLMEQ XhZErmf1vHk= =azuR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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