December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Re: wealth and property rights
by jc105558＠spruce.hsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: MX%"dave(a)kachina.jetcafe.org" 22-NOV-1996 00:41:58.20 To: MX%"aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk" CC: MX%"freedom-knights(a)kachina.jetcafe.org",MX%"cypherpunks(a)toad.com" Subj: Re: wealth and property rights Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com> Received: from toad.com by spruce.HSU.EDU (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:41:55 EST Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04549 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (jetcafe.org [207.155.21.2]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04544 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02028; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:35:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199611220235.SAA02028(a)kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> CC: freedom-knights(a)kachina.jetcafe.org, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: wealth and property rights Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:35:49 -0800 From: Dave Hayes <dave(a)kachina.jetcafe.org> Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk > Btw, people of your mentality (communists/socialists) already make it > very difficult for me to accumulate, due to the exhorbitant tax rates > to support those who chose to blow their money as soon as they have > it I don't necessarily want to support "socialism" nor "capitalism". Both are extremes of a situation which does no one any good to exist. However, I would question the implication that "socialists" are responsible for the higher tax rates you currently experience. For example, I could make a strong case that you really have some clever "capitalists" who have learned how to express their "capitalism" quite effectively across the space of all people in a "country". 8-) ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet It is the wise bird who builds his nest in a tree.

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CHANGE: Visa-Free List - How to gain another nationality
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:22:07 -0600 Reply-To: sanwar(a)bclimser.demon.co.uk Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU> From: Sanwar Ali <sanwar(a)bclimser.demon.co.uk> Organization: BCL Immigration Services Subject: CHANGE: Visa-Free List - How to gain another nationality To: NEW-LIST(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU The VISA-FREE list has now had a change in address for all requests to the server. Instead of it ending with pobox.com after the @ sign it will be majordomo.pobox.com. Below are the new details for the list. VISA-FREE on majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com Discussion of how to gain another nationality for visa-free travel VISA-FREE an unmoderated discussion list covering the problems associated with international travel. In particular the issues discussed will cover acquiring a different nationality to overcome these problems. VISA-FREE is open to anyone wanting more information on visa-free travel, or with useful tips about gaining another nationality quickly. It is also open to specialists in nationality law. Documentation covering the relevant laws of countries that grant their citizenship quickly are archived at: http://www.bclimser.demon.co.uk/bclgovnt.htm Also information covering problems that people have experienced when using a new passport will be covered. There are archives of many of the digests at: http://www.bclimser.demon.co.uk/bclarchv.htm There will also be an e-journal called "THE VISA-FREE JOURNAL" sent to subscribers. Anyone wishing to write to the list-owner directly to discuss relevant issues and who does not wish this circulated to the list may do so. The address is s.riley(a)pobox.com. Please also state whether you would mind if your comments are put into the journal. The list-owner will respect any requests for privacy. *IMPORTANT: Anyone offering specialist assistance to VISA-FREE must provide the list owner with the relevant laws applicable to any citizenship programme offered, in the form of plain text to be archived and made available to the list. Also the legal basis of any programme must be fully verified with the list owner before permission is granted for circulation to the list. This is to safeguard the integrity of the list. Permission will not be unreasonably withheld from such people. At the same time the list -owner reserves the right to exclude those people who do not adhere to the purpose of the list, engage in unnecessary flaming or offer services of a dubious nature.* To subscribe to VISA-FREE, please send the message: SUBSCRIBE VISA-FREE (without your name!) or for the digest SUBSCRIBE VISA-FREE-DIGEST to majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com To send messages to the full list use visa-free(a)majordomo.pobox.com For messages to the list owner use s.riley(a)pobox.com Home Page: http://www.bclimser.demon.co.uk/bclvisfr.htm Owner: Sam Riley (AKA "Sanwar Ali") s.riley(a)pobox.com The list-owner's public key is: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6 mQCNAi/xbwUAAAEEALZolxs1l/DbYtEOIJV71EdsDepzR+DhLPPATIMwYiYgU9Yc PRIa6aUI4VKrtz23/3Nz4pFP45kCfKUehsJ3oqtXzGWqCqIpPVm4q4d6oV44Csn5 EykR3ujlzYaCopzsYRD9E/EIaxVztnIantfLeN0IwQL0k9XazPkj64yNL1lpAAUR tCRTYW0gUmlsZXkgPHNhbUBiY2xpbXNlci5kZW1vbi5jby51az4= =nj7+ -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

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TIA Invites
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A rep of the Telecommunications Industry Association telephoned to say that TIA has invited authority to investigate disclosure of TIA's TR45.3 to the unworthy.

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Re: Another Nutty Idea about SPAM
by zerkle＠cs.ucdavis.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(apologies if this appears twice...I'm easily confused) > From: ichudov(a)algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) > It is not illegal to make unsolicited phone calls. People must > take an _action_ (request to be removed from call lists) in order > not to be bothered. Yes. However, there is an organization that will send out such a list to a large number of big companies that do telemarketing. If any of those companies call any of the people on the list, they each send a bill for $100. If the bill isn't paid, they sue for the money. They always get the money. The telemarketers really hate these people, which means that they are doing their job. So, for the spammers, what I'm proposing is not that people *need* to take action to avoid getting spammed, but that they *can* take action if they want to get paid for spam. -Dan

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Re: wealth and property rights
by Clay Olbon II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:54 AM 11/27/96 -0800, Dave Kinchlea wrote: >On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Clay Olbon II wrote: >> >> This is provably bullshit. Look at the HUGE numbers of people in this >> country who make the economic decision to do nothing and go on welfare vs. >> going to work. Examine carefully the economic performance of the US vs the > >I don't know how much people get on welfare in your country but I >suspect that it is even less than in this country (Canada). Anyone who >truly believes that people make the `economic decision to do nothing and >go on welfare vs. going to work' has, in my opinion, no &^%* idea what >they are talking about. Just try to *live* on a welfare wage for a few >months to see how silly this thought is. While there may well be a few >`welfare-moms' (which is not necessarily a bad thing, taking care of >children is an investment for society), the vast majority of people on >welfare (at least here) would *much* rather get a decent job and work >for their money. There are, perhaps, a few people who would rather not >work for minimum wage (who find it impossible to feed their family on >that) but I suspect that those folks are few and far between. The average welfare benefit (including food stamps, medicaid, and all the other myriad programs) is $10/hr. Compare to a minimum wage of $5/hr. Offer most welfare recipients a minimum wage job and they will laugh in your face. (In fact, here in Michigan most employers are already paying several $$ above minimum wage, and often these jobs are unfilled). >> More bullshit. You don't know what anyones motives are. To ascribe your >> motivations to Bill Gates is unrealistic. > >But you claim to know the motives of those on welfare: pot->kettle->black I don't claim to know the motives. I am examining empirical evidence. As the welfare benefit increases, more go on welfare, as it decreases, less go on welfare. Someone is making economic decisions, consciously or unconsciously. Clay ******************************************************* Clay Olbon olbon(a)ix.netcom.com engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc. **********************************************tanstaafl

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CNET News Dispatch November 26th, 1996
by The CNET newsletter 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

*************************************** NEWS.COM DAILY DISPATCH 6:10 p.m. (PT) Tuesday, November 26, 1996 San Francisco, California, USA *************************************** WELCOME! *************************************** The NEWS.COM DAILY DISPATCH highlights the up-to-the minute technology news presented by NEWS.COM. It tempts readers with coverage of today's hottest stories, news in the making, (in)credible rumors, and other indispensable information. For complete versions of the stories updated all day long, head over to: http://www.news.com/?nd *************************************** CONTENTS SCOOPS AND TOP STORIES The legislation that launched thousands of cyberspace ribbons The Nostradamus of the semiconductor market speaketh! Comdex sucks! No, it rules! Sucks! Does not! Does so! Might that be the virogen.asexual virus in your software? ANNOUNCEMENTS An easy way for you to customize NEWS.COM Late-breaking stories just a click away with Desk Top News Send us your questions, comments, flotsam, and jetsam *************************************** SCOOPS AND TOP STORIES THE LEGISLATION THAT LAUNCHED THOUSANDS OF CYBERSPACE RIBBONS It's baaaack... The Supreme Court will decide tomorrow whether it should review the CDA--the legislation cyberspace loves to hate--or simply put it out to pasture. Swirling around inside this legal vortex are issues of free speech, the definition of "obscene," and a potential $250,000 fine for transgressors. Maybe CDA really stands for "Can't download anything..." http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C5743%2C00.html?nd *************************************** THE NOSTRADAMUS OF THE SEMICONDUCTOR MARKET SPEAKETH! Who better than a Robertson, Stephens semiconductor analyst to take you on a guided tour of the volatile world of semiconductor stocks? Dan Niles demystifies the market's plummeting and rising...distinguishes between trends and blips, and pontificates on where semiconductor stocks are going in the long run. [Hint: Can you say $275 billion?...] http://www.news.com/Perspectives/perspectives.html?ntb.pers?nd *************************************** COMDEX SUCKS! NO, IT RULES! SUCKS! DOES NOT! DOES SO! If you've been to Comdex and survived, how did you manage it? NEWS.COM wants your war stories. We will publish the best five, and the winners--picked on a totally subjective basis by our editorial staff--will get supercool CNET T-shirts. Mail suggestions(a)news.com, and include the words 'Comdex stories' in the subject of your message. To paraphrase the Prez, "Let us feel yur paynnne..." http://www.news.com/Comdex/?nd *************************************** MIGHT THAT BE THE VIROGEN.ASEXUAL VIRUS IN YOUR SOFTWARE? Downloaders of PointCast's version 1.2 got a bit of a shock for their trouble, namely a Norton antivirus software-generated message that told them they had contracted a virus with the esoteric moniker "Virogen.asexual." While the scare isn't in league with the benzene-in-the-Perrier snafu of a few years back, there were still ruffled feathers that needed smoothing. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C5745%2C00.html?nd *************************************** ANNOUNCEMENTS AN EASY WAY FOR YOU TO CUSTOMIZE NEWS.COM So many bits, so little time? Sounds like you need Custom News. Identify the topics, keywords, or sections you're most interested in, and Custom News will a create a page of headlines and summaries for all stories that match your criteria. Check it out at: http://www.news.com/Personalization/Entry/1%2C21%2C%2C00.html?nocache=1 *************************************** LATE-BREAKING STORIES A CLICK AWAY WITH DESK TOP NEWS How would you like having split-second access to the very latest news on the Net? Our Desk Top News feature puts our 20 most recent stories right there on your desktop for you to review at any time. Here's how it works: 1. From any story, click Desk Top News in the top right. 2. A window will open showing our last 20 stories. 3. Click on a headline to display the story. 4. Desk Top News updates itself every 30 minutes. 5. You become known as Ms./Mr. Cyber-Info. It feels good. http://www.news.com/Help/Item/0%2C24%2C12%2C00.html?nd *************************************** SEND US QUESTIONS, COMMENTS, FLOTSAM, AND JETSAM If you have any questions, suggestions or remarks, send us a message: newsdispatch(a)cnet.com *************************************** CNET: The Computer Network http://www.cnet.com/ http://www.news.com/ http://www.gamecenter.com/ http://www.download.com/ http://www.search.com/ http://www.shareware.com/

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Re: Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!
by Robin Whittle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

William H. Geiger III <whgiii(a)amaranth.com> wrote: > Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!! > Dorthy Denning gave the most pro-government speech I have ever > heard. Is this clueless bitch on the government payroll?!! Spelling please! "Dorothy". She is a US academic. It may be emotionally satisfying to rail against (what for us may be evident as) the wickedness and stupidity of our opponents. I did not see the testimony, so I can't comment on it. However I believe that Dorothy Denning is motivated as much as many of us by the desire for a healthy society. The sharp difference in crypto policy can probably be explained by a differing understanding of: 1 - The likely behaviour of professional criminals, normal people, government officials and criminal government officials in the future with various forms of crypto system. 2 - Different levels of trust and fear regarding crime in general, big-time crime in particular and the use and abuse of law enforcement and other government powers. 3 - Probably other things too. I think that there are different personality types at work here. Adding to that is the tendency for governments to employ people who generally trust governments, their desire to perpetuate their former abilities to detect and deter crime and especially the problem of *groupthink*. Groupthink is the tendency for like minded individuals to reject uncomfortable notions, and so develop a seriously inadequate understanding of reality. JFK admitted they were stupid to commence the Bay of Pigs invasion. Clinton will probably say the same thing about crypto export controls. There is clear evidence that, being surrounded by like minded advisers, both presidents were the victims of groupthink. If we nod our heads to "Dorthy Denning is a boot-licking fasicist!!!" then we too are succumbing to groupthink. See: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr/crypto/oecd_dr.htm for Dorothy Denning's response to my challenge for justifying costs of key-escrow/recovery against the likely benefit in crime reduction. I don't think it is a very strong response, and while many on this list will know more about her than I do, her response does not strike me as the work of someone who is unintelligent, uninterested in the future of society or a fascist. The net result of various misunderstandings (such as Clinton and Co. must have about the freely available nature of strong crypto) may well be stupidity on a grand scale. There are personality types who lean away from privacy and towards dangerous levels of government control. I think this can be amplified by the circumstances in which these people work - and groupthink is a big part of that. oecd_dr.htm is a recent draft of some OECD crypto work, with my comments, especially concerning the likely behaviour of criminals communicating both with other criminals and with non-criminals. It also has some information on an essay by Irving L. Janis called "Group Think" which I recommend to everyone who is involved in policy debates. - Robin . Robin Whittle . . http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr firstpr(a)ozemail.com.au . . 11 Miller St. Heidelberg Heights 3081 Melbourne Australia . . Ph +61-3-9459-2889 Fax +61-3-9458-1736 . . Consumer advocacy in telecommunications, especially privacy . . . . First Principles - Research and expression - music, . . music industry, telecommunications . . human factors in technology adoption. . . . Real World Interfaces - Hardware and software, especially . . for music .

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Re: wealth and property rights
by Clay Olbon II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:08 PM 11/26/96 -0500, Stephen Boursy <boursy(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > I sincerely don't believe that. If you look at your above >examples, or Bill Gates below, much of their motivation is not >the accumulation of weath per se but rather power and performance. >I know I would do much the same job (not that I'm in the wealthy) >even if the salary were more or less--I enjoy it (I'm a programmer). >Same is true for education--much of the motivation is either >intrinsic or status oriented and has little or nothing to do with >marketablity. This is provably bullshit. Look at the HUGE numbers of people in this country who make the economic decision to do nothing and go on welfare vs. going to work. Examine carefully the economic performance of the US vs the Soviet Union - two countries with quite similar natural resources and population. To believe as you do belongs in the same category as believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. It requires complete ignorance of reality. >> In a capitalist society, I have to provide something that you want >> more than your wealth in order to obtain it. > > That's true--as with all labor--but it is a matter of scale. >Gates would do the same thing if you limited his income just >for the sake of power accumulation--he's got all the money >he could ever consume. That's not his real motive. More bullshit. You don't know what anyones motives are. To ascribe your motivations to Bill Gates is unrealistic. What is your defined limit on what people should earn? A thought experiment. The govt decides that the maximum anyone can earn in a lifetime is $10M. Bill Gates earns his $10M, he then decides that he doesn't feel like working for free, so he quits. Pretty soon, the people most effective at creating wealth in society will all "reach their limit" and quit. Then the economic growth rates in this country can approach those of the socialist societies that you seem to adore. Either that or the best and brightest will leave. >> 5. Government is the least efficient means of resolving the problem. The > > As inefficeint as it is it is really the only effective means. A >simple 100% inheritance tax would be very helpful as would limitations >on how much property a given individual (and a corporation is a virutal >individual) may own. See my above points. Implement this and prepare the for US to become a third world country. 100% inheritance taxes would probably be the largest incentive for people to leave (they leave now with ONLY a 50% inheritance tax). And who would get the money? Those who are producing nothing, giving them even greater incentives for producing nothing (heck, get welfare payments up around $50K and I would quit work - I could find lots of enjoyable and intellectually stimulating ways to keep myself busy!). > As to your other issue here--earnings and limitations on accumulation, >much would be equalized without inheritance. But yes--there would >still be accumulators--most would still produce regardless of >limits because as I said their motives are not simply income--power, >prestige, etc. all come in to play as well as the gratification that >comes with winning. Gates enjoys his cover on Time Mag. much more >than a few extra million a day. Bullshit. See above. > But the basic answer to your argument--from my standpoint--is that >some people are extremely intellegent, others very gifted in other >ways, others very dull witted, etc. Some possess artistic genius >that can pay off immediately, others have none that is valued dollar >wise by society. I sincerly don't believe one has the right to >live better than the other--that the rewards, if different, sould >be negligable. > > If I could make as much as I do know programming by working as >a clerk in a convenience store or whatever I would still choose to >do what I am doing. If you are in a different situation you're >in the wrong career. You are extremely idealistic. Try coming back to reality. Examine the "test cases" for the policies you advocate (and there are plenty of examples of socialist policies both in this country and others) - and realistically assess the consequences. If you do this, you will find that these policies are unworkable, and lead to lower - not higher standards of living for everyone. Clay ******************************************************* Clay Olbon olbon(a)ix.netcom.com engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc. **********************************************tanstaafl

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Re: [CRYPTO] Bank Cards, Interac, Bank Machines, etc
by ca3sal＠isis.sunderland.ac.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There was someone jailed a couple of months ago in the UK for ATM fraud. He and his mates set up cameras watching people type in there PIN number and then manufatered dummy cards. I will try and dig out any more info. Ste

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No Subject
by nobody＠cypherpunks.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Does anyone have any experience with this product she/he would like to share? This is the Win95 model. :Stealth Encryptor :Stealth Encryptor offers the following functions: : Stealth Encryptor, List Mode : Stealth Encryptor, Browser Mode : Important Files Backup with auto encryption : File Shredder : E-Mail Encryptor : Drag and Drop support : Dockable Toolbar : Stealth Media Encryption, super speed for large image, multimedia and exe files : DES encryption : 32 bit performance, compatible with Windows 95 and Windows NT :http://www.tropsoft.com/stealth Many thanks. A c'punks survivor (so far)!

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