December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>(anyone know who came up with the term "email >exploder" that the Court used instead of "mailing list"?) Brendan P Kehoe's "Zen and the Art of the Internet" (1993) discussing mailing lists says (p11), "Any mail sent to that address will "explode" out to each person named in a file maintained on a computer at ..." I have seen it used elsewhere as well. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet may fairly be | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | regarded as a never-ending | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | worldwide conversation. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

1 0

Re: alpha.c2.org in deep shit?
by sdudar＠solutions.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Huh? At 06:14 PM 6/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >hIwDSReYoIbc3PkBA/9xblBrrofx89t5QoJVwCyGB/+futdCXEolwcsQdwWGcDtc >7Vn7orCB8v6iQO+sCgAlYf38ftUxGmzebDd/7eWodTGx8XKnzBIZ9E6bRS38XLRa >XDaipoiNRDi7gX2DA5ADtshTLtUiCjaYurGxGEla2iIMrEacGEyyekdZpUYT1KYA >AAJ17fM4D2X8vpKTtWLr/6REeQvxPU80FpWKa/q1b6wMZ43oG9ZolMONj65hWqX0 >mhY+wp/vUsvQ21P/9VzYF0sy9JIAr45VhoDZBBCG0UW23WoOInXko2Kl2UeZmrut >xR/nZm1sMzU+XYr7QG17aOfeezRs/frYEpvuAbrWYNELlPH72OBJ368nSkesiTo+ >gELda7vNsD12UTEl7gRAo3WizCY2zsQySLOShEiAX7f5vYco8A6pEwJ4XYs4pGn6 >xV4JNUeMjBKGtVkGoZJln3x7W1brgGmRNQbY/dcmCkExOOp+4myRVu0/ufH7n5TO >FWqrb+nqyjgnirqS9DwoqB5JsHiMWU/dJBaCtXH4i1p//oeE9FE82nE2vAOZGMvn >D+MRnheCVRi2TWnwe44PnB+L5z7+J+YJyulGM3bvXhZukjGCAj+EMmWxqkSgc2NS >/xh6efgZNACmQIqxLdsw6TLbh9p+yMaxtaCZU9Bs9jw8dN+7FBZxgFG/hrrI1uh3 >oFahFMDXXAUMUs7lFOcxjAWTRRZKKSOG2mg5M5mr8VbY+5BQdcJJeY+jSCnDinUC >wGFfEWlZMV7sdKhzA0YkHJYBgAPtmTaxrHQidPce46FbIeYVRsUOSEtvttYpMjIz >mCVc5ywueUXbUe5UW3KrlV8uxKH3fEIEZ9Pxf3M9XR/aFXysccnzNzbe87XN8PDk >mxzsRzmoD0CgCSAGfNrTdWl8bFQGnEaweMPnSIFzbSJkRcO0oiBU4/dhEFYiPgx5 >UD2r0uFNjKPt4KFBbFJLi0mrMuOCaxjhva7i70GQ95b4qVsyOZLN5KYSUnSDxDX4 >HFUIrEI/rsw= >=BesD >-----END PGP MESSAGE----- > >

2 1

Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:45 6/17/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 08:43 AM 6/17/96 -0400, Declan B. McCullagh wrote: > >>I believe we used the term "email exploder" instead of "mailing list," >>particularly in cross-examination and closing arguments, to convey the >>idea that such a device is often used for conversation, not just one-way >>communication. > >Was this term invented during the hearings or has anyone heard of it before? I have heard of it before. I believe "mail exploder" is a rather old term. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Disclaimer: My opinions are my own.

1 0

Blowfish Reliability
by Computer Virus Help Desk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Can anyone say with any degree of certainty what resources it would require to crack a file encrypted with 160 Bit Blowfish? Many Thanks! CVHD

1 0

Pathfinder's New Look
by design＠pathfinder.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Pathfinder Member: We're excited to announce a major redesign of Pathfinder, your home on the Net, and invite you to come and check it out at http://pathfinder.com! The NEW look of Pathfinder is our response to your feedback. We've made it FASTER LOADING, EASIER TO NAVIGATE and added even more DAILY and INTERACTIVE content. And, we've taken advantage of the latest technologies like Java to make your Pathfinder experience more informative and fun. Whether it's up-to-the-minute news and weather, the latest sports scores, stock quotes or today's celebrity gossip - you can now find it all at the click of a mouse. If you don't see what you're looking for just click on the SEARCH button and we'll help you find it - if it's on Pathfinder or somewhere else on the Net. When we launched in October 1994, Pathfinder was considered a ground-breaking effort on the Web. Today, Pathfinder is a true super-site, containing more than 150,000 web pages from over 90 of the biggest names in news, information and entertainment - names you trust like Time, Money, Sports Illustrated, Entertainment Weekly, People and Fortune. Much more important than our size, however, is our loyal base of Pathfinder users. With your help and support Pathfinder has grown from just a large web site into a vibrant virtual community of members and ideas. We'd be very interested in your feedback on our new look - just click on the "Welcome" banner at the top of the homepage and you can send us all your thoughts and ideas. And, if you find you have any questions while visiting Pathfinder, be sure to check out our new online HELP area. Sincerely, Marie Blue Director of Consumer Marketing P.S. Stay tuned for details on our exciting new product, PATHFINDER PERSONAL EDITION. It's a fully personalizable and customizable online news and information service plus - get the information you want, when you want it! See our homepage for more information.

1 0

SafE Mail Corporation
by safemail＠ntrnet.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We would like someone to be able or should I say try and crack our encryption. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Our Web site is http://www.sfmc.com Phone number is 1-800-252-9938. Randy Estridge SafE Mail Corporation

6 5

Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:27 PM 16-06-96 -0700, it was written: >>At the following two sites, you may download the FREEWARE Pegasus Mail >>program version 2.3.3 16 bit for windows 3.x or a version for WIN95. > >I like Pmail. Had I not been an experienced Eudora user before I >tried it (and pretty stuck on the Eudora interface) I would have >probably stuck with it. Kudos to the Pegasus team for releasing >a freeware program with such excellent filtering capabilites. It >is much more of a full-fledged program than Eudora Lite, IMHO. > >> The >>unique thing about it, besides its simplicity and that it's a great mail >>program better than Eudora, it has a built in encryption program that is as >>effective as PGP and lots simpler. All you do is agree on a password with >>your correspondent. That simple. The "encryption" built into PMail is - and the author admits this - crap. He wrote the encryptor interface, which is essentially Message XOR Password, as a demonstration. Then the JN PGP interface was written. >> The encryption program and the mail program >>were developed in New Zealand, and were legally imported, so the encryption >>program is better than PGP, which is regulated by Federal Cypher Laws. > >This is misleading, IMHO. Mild understatement. >PC users who use PGP should try Pegasus and PGP JN. Been there, done that. It's a nice combo, but could be a little better. >Private Idaho is available from Joel McNamara's page, at: >http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ Been there, done that. It's also a nice program, but nowhere near a full featured mail client. That's by design, as I understand. dave

1 0

Rating Problems
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The recent CDA decision pointed out some of the problems involved in rating Net content. For example, the court spent a lot of time talking about Cyber Patrol software and the CyberNOT list "containing approximately 7000 sites in twelve categories. The software is designed to enable parents to selectively block access to any or all of the twelve CyberNOT categories simply by checking boxes in the Cyber Patrol Headquarters (the Cyber Patrol program manager). These categories are:" Violence/Profanity: Extreme cruelty, physical or emotional acts against any animal or person which are primarily intended to hurt or inflict pain. Obscene words, phrases, and profanity defined as text that uses George Carlin's seven censored words more often than once every fifty messages or pages. Violence against plants is OK, however. Likewise Cypherpunks which probably meets the 1 bad word per 50 messages standard. I wonder if they use Carlin's original or updated 7 Words. Partial Nudity: Full or partial exposure of the human anatomy except when exposing genitalia. Nudity: Any exposure of the human genitalia. Only in pictures. Text-only full-frontal nudity is OK. Looks like baby pictures are out though. Sexual Acts (graphic or text): Pictures or text exposing anyone or anything involved in explicit sexual acts and lewd and lascivious behavior, including masturbation, copulation, pedophilia, intimacy and involving nude or partially nude people in heterosexual, bisexual, lesbian or homosexual encounters. Also includes phone sex ads, dating services, adult personals, CD-ROM and videos. Bestiality is not covered though. Gross Depictions (graphic or text): Pictures or descriptive text of anyone or anything which are crudely vulgar, deficient in civility or behavior, or showing scatological impropriety. Includes such depictions as maiming, bloody figures, indecent depiction of bodily functions. There goes all of Pop Culture. Certainly deficient in behavior. Racism/Ethnic Impropriety: Prejudice or discrimination against any race or ethnic culture. Ethnic or racist jokes and slurs. Any text that elevates one race over another. Luckily, all other forms of discrimination are OK. Women, crips, queers, Jews, and old folk watch out. How politically incorrect of Cyber Patrol. Satanic/Cult: Worship of the devil; affinity for evil, wickedness. Sects or groups that potentially coerce individuals to grow, and keep, membership. Does that include evangelicals? They're not Satanic but they certainly encourage membership growth. Some evangelicals can be quite coercive. And why Satanists? Don't we have freedom of religion in this country? Remember, the Supremes *did* throw out the Hialeah Sanitaria Animal Sacrifice Ordinance. Drugs/Drug Culture: Topics dealing with the use of illegal drugs for entertainment. This would exclude current illegal drugs used for medicinal purposes (e.g., drugs used to treat victims of AIDS). Includes substances used for other than their primary purpose to alter the individual's state of mind such as glue sniffing. I'm glad my drug pages are limited to the non-entertaining uses of illegal drugs. Purely analgesic purposes only. Militant/Extremist: Extremely aggressive and combative behaviors, radicalism, advocacy of extreme political measures. Topics include extreme political groups that advocate violence as a means to achieve their goal. There goes www.whitehouse.gov. They certainly "advocate violence as a means to achieve their goal." Pretty aggressive and combative as well. Radical. Advocate extreme political measures. Gambling: Of or relating to lotteries, casinos, betting, numbers games, on-line sports or financial betting including non-monetary dares. There goes www.wsj.com. *All* financial betting. Questionable/Illegal: Material or activities of a dubious nature which may be illegal in any or all jurisdictions, such as illegal business schemes, chain letters, software piracy, and copyright infringement. Which jurisdictions -- Singapore? Do they mean just US jurisdictions or all jurisdictions. Is offshore banking dubious? It's not illegal. Alcohol, Beer & Wine: Material pertaining to the sale or consumption of alcoholic beverages. Also includes sites and information relating to tobacco products. Poor Joe Camel. If Health Nazis are bad for adults, why are they good for children? Note guns aren't on the banned list so www.nra.org is safe for the kiddies. DCF

2 1

Re: pretty good reputation
by Vipul Ved Prakash 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Deranged Mutant wrote: > > first, i would like to make it clear that i have no personal grudges against > > I never thought you did... That was simply to ensure a flame free discussion. Almost anything I talk about on my local bbs echos (back in India) turns out to be a flame war, specially if its related to _touchy_ software like PGP :) > > pgp, i have some interest in reputation systems which i am trying to pursue. > > since pgp tries to model a reputation system and is being used world-wide, > > i am using pgp as a model for discussion. > > That's the point, though. PGP *does not* try to model a reputation > system. When you sign keys, you only attest that you are sure that > that key belongs to the person whose name is on it. A signature says > *nothing* about a person's reputation. > This is meant to be used separately by each user of PGP. If Alice > knows Bob personally, then she knows how trustworthy Bob is when he > signs a key, in relation to her. This is not meant to be shared with > anyone else, and has no meaning to anyone else except Alice. in that case if alice receives a key signed by bob, she would know the key is good. and there is no need for the two other fields. infact the reason why i felt pgp is trying to model a reputation system if because of these two fields that carry trust values. > You can't set up a global web of trust. It's computationally > infeasable, esp. with contradictions, to resolve. It's also > meaningless. Say Alice trusts Bob. Bob trusts Carol. Carol trusts > Don. Should Alice trust Don? No... subjective factors like "trust" > don't commute. this is precisely what i wanted to know. can there be a model wherein one can compute a trust-like parameter? if yes in what ways should this parameter be modified and qualified. or conversely what kind of qualification/modification is required for computing trust? > > copule of things you mentioned are intresting. in a reputation system the > > trust parameters are fuzzy and there are lot of layers (since we > > are talking of a web of users), so we can't mix it with the liar paradox. > > Yes we can. There's been work done with the Liar paradox using fuzzy > logic. Also other work in repuation webs ("Say the president of a > company asks all his vice presidents for their opinions about each > other, so he can appoint a successor. How does he resolve > contradictions, when all he has are their opinions about each > other?"). lets say a reputation system involves alice, bob, carol and don. Computing trust parameter with respect to each other can lead to situtions where alice trusts bob x% and has y% proof that he is a liar, after considering all other relations. If this x% > y% she'll believe him, if not she won't. thats why i feel the liar paradox doesn't really pose much of a threat. > > as far as halting problem goes, again can we reduce a reputation system to > > halting problem? Infact alonzo church and some other scientists made > > symbolic equivalents of turing's machine which could determine the broad > > limits of automatic computation. is there any research being done on reputation > > systems that involves church's thesis? > > I mispoke slightly: I mentioned the halting problem in terms there > being non-computable functions. There are people on the list (and > elsewhere) who don't have an inkling about the halting problem, and > propose security/reputation systems that fly in the face of it. > > I've been working on a proof or discussion of a "Very Generalized > Halting Problem" that basically says that you can check that > something is "not x" from a set of tests to see if that something is > not "x"... if it fails at least one test, you know it's not "x", but > if it doesn't fail any, because such a set must be incomplete > (Goedel's Theorem...), you are never sure that it's "x". > > How this relates to a reputation system? If you set up a global > reputation network where people tag each other in degrees of trust, > you try for completeness and end up with . People will > contradict each other and there will be no way to resolve it. Alice > says Bob is trustworthy to a degree, and Bob says Carol is > trustworthy to a degree, but Carol says Alice is untrustoworthy > (rates Alice lower). There will be inconsistency only if trust/untrust values are absolute. that is you either trust someone or you don't. i am talking of a system wherein trust values lie between 0..1 which are derived from a set of tags. in that case bob alice trusts bob x% bob trusts carol y% and carol trusts alice z%. if z < x, z < y simply implies alice trusts bob, bob trusts carol more than carol trusts alice. so the system will be relative rather than absolute. a person who is trusted by more people will carry greater weight and people trusted by him will carry higher weight too. this way snoopy who is not trusted by many people will automatically have a weak relationship with others. > There's the other point that someone else on the list (Perry?) brought up: > if people publicly rate each other, there may be social/political > pressure to give some people lower or higher ratings. again these ratings will be decided in a web rather that on one-to-one basis. that way the social/political pressure can be reduced though not completely eliminated. > And again, being a private rating system means 1) I don't offend > anyone since no one else knows how I rate them, and 2) there are no > contradictions because I am not relying on other's ratings to > determine how I rate them. > > BTW, some work using fuzzy logic in terms of how people rate each > other is being done at the Group for Logic and Formal Semantics at > the University at Stony Brook (in Stony Brook, NY). I went to school > there and still help out in the Philosophy Department and the > G.L.F.S. with some programming etc. It isn't exactly the same as > ratings systems, but its close enough. if any research work is freely available i'll be really interested. best, vipul.

1 0

Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Lou Zirko 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: dsmith(a)prairienet.org, richieb(a)teleport.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com, secure(a)commtouch.com Date: Mon Jun 17 16:44:10 1996 Pronto Secure, currently in beta 6.16, is shaping up as a fine all-inclusive mail package that supports PGP. You might want to take a look at it at: Beta Testers residing in the USA are invited to download the beta from: http://www.commtouch.com/secus/secus1.htm Non US residents should download from: http://www.commtouch.com/secnon/secintl1.htm I have been with it since beta 1 and it definately has come a long way. Platforms supported are the MS GUI. It is a 16-bit app. I currently run it under NT 3.51 w/ 32-bit PGP executables. Take a look. Lou Z. Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko(a)c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMcXR4ctPRTNbb5z9AQH8Tgf/aCWChVMTKFyv+NpADQqosnMO2C7EAj/Z o+O2KwQ91YVaRpkmJjrHzQuP+ou6YKHi5hH9SLRbN5Ox4/8YMmaOIRjqOrTmgta8 +fMBAtJ01AyWW9ZZh0sfEqM32RQ8Pt+x2Q8+MuyuEU/9vaeGhbb7DksGA8y2ht/5 uDKBUtrGgxAS7Yr2VRJVJXNd1b7eFdKGFUhBJJo9ig11/ICHcXVbUqpQ9Iqi2aRT hoRRVtiMawCJznXaYid+2fami/pgtq/i00kV9y4ge3TOooxM4KZB3LZziCbS8R4d AfaG9dj0wP50/zDhFxdExVc6NbQzTyr3kY+4z/47qkIZZ3wn5paezw== =FO3b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0