December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Is Chaum's System Traceable or Untraceable?
by Tim Dierks 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:10 AM 5/20/96, Ian Goldberg wrote: >In article <199605190626.BAA62897(a)rs5.tcs.tulane.edu>, >Matthew Carpenter <mcarpent(a)mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu> wrote: >>My PDA receives >>back any coins as change if needed, and logs info about the transaction >>for my financial records. >> >>When I get back home I 'deposit' my change using the same ATM interface. >>This also removes from my home computer the copies of the coins I spent, >>and automatically updates the transaction records on my PC. >> >>So are there any flaws with above procedure? > >Yup; with the current protocols, there's no way to do change. For the shop >to pay you change, besides suddenly losing your anonymity as a payee, you >would have to go online immediately to clear the coins, which assumedly >is infeasable. > >However, if you use the "fully anonymous" protocol, change becomes trivial. >You don't have to go online; the payer (the shop) does, which it assumedly >already is. Another benefit is that coins received in this way as change >are immediately spendable by you, without having to go online in between. > >The "fully anonymous" protocol turns out to be _exactly_ what is needed >for situations like this. Not that full anonymity isn't a Good Thing, but couldn't this be solved by having the merchant (who presumably is on-line) provide PDA <-> mint connectivitiy for the purposes of getting change, exchanging coins, etc.? My assumption is that all the ecash protocols are not subject to a MITM attack, which I would just presume to be good practice. Also, given the fully anonymous protocol as you've described it (both payor and payee blind the coins), what's to prevent the merchant from depositing your change before he gives it to you? Unless your PDA is online, you'll be home before you find out the hot dog vendor shorted you. (It's my understanding that the current digicash system does not support Chaum's method of revealing the identity of double-spenders). - Tim Tim Dierks -- timd(a)consensus.com -- www.consensus.com Head of Thing-u-ma-jig Engineering, Consensus Development

2 1

Re: My meeting with Chaum (Also: ecash full anonymity and a legal question)
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 17:13 5/20/96, Jüri Kaljundi wrote: >BTW why isn't some other company besides DigiCash selling similar software >product as the Ecash mint & client? Not that I am aware of. David Chaum (DigiCash) holds the patents on the blinding technology that lies at the core of Ecash. >Public domain ecash software would be an interesting effort to accomplish. >In case of full source availability it should be possible to develop >commercial systems based on public software, it might even be more secure >than commercial software which source is available for review to only >certain persons. Coin based software that uses blinding would infringe on DC's patents. >There is also a problem with Digicash licensing: they licence only to >banks, and usually only to one bank in each country. That is not the case. At this time, there is only one Ecash issuing bank in each country that has an Ecash issuing bank. There is no reason why there might not be several Ecash issuing banks in a given country in the future. >I believe there are >also many companies that are not banks, who would also like to issue ecash >for specific purposes. Such companies could negotiate a deal with one of the current Ecash issuers in which the company gets exclusive use of one of the many currencies that all Ecash mints are capable of issuing. Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not those of my employer. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred.

1 0

Re: New Remailer (hidden)
by Raph Levien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bill Stewart wrote: > > Cool. I've got a test message going now. > Does your remailer accept PGP-encrypted email? > It's really critical for high-security applications, > at least for first remailer hops, but your key's not on > the MIT keyserver. At present, middleman accepts only Mixmaster format messages. Obviously, if it also supported type-1 messages, it would be important to accept PGP encrypted messages as well. > BTW, how do we know you're not a plant? :-) > Aside from having an interesting nym, > you've probably got the first remailer that > makes it difficult to tell who's running it. > You could be Sameer, or you could be Louis Freeh, > but we don't know. At least folks like Xenon were > known to be real people.... I am able to vouch for the fact that middleman is not a plant. > Even if you _are_ a plant, of course, we can still use > your system, but I'd want to do encrypted email through > other remailers on one end or the other. Always a good idea. Raph

1 0

Religions, Scientology, and Ritual Cannibalism
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:53 PM 5/20/96, jamesd(a)echeque.com wrote: >At 01:08 AM 5/20/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >> But any country that is "anti-Scientology" is likely to be >> repressive in various ways we would find inimical to our goals. >> [...] >> >> (The issue of how believable the claims of CoS are is no more relevant than >> similarly outlandish claims that taking communion is eating the flesh of >> JC.) > >The Australian law is (or was) based on the idea that if you charged someone >$2500 for eating the flesh of christ, it then becomes legitimate for the >government to check out whether or not the customer was getting actual >flesh of Christ. This seems to me a lot less repressive than the American >FDA. Caveat: I'm an atheist, a non-believer in the supernatural. When I die, my CPU and consciousness will vanish. If there are various gods and goddesses, sprites, trolls, Supreme Being(s), I see no evidence of them. Having said this, I don't want _any_ government intervening in religion, for any purposes. If the Church of Zed says that one's tithing to the Church will buy one eternal salvation and healthy gums, I don't want some government demanding to see "proof." (Inasmuch as at most one religion is right, this makes the remaining N - 1 religions automatically fraudulent in some sense. This is why the "Schelling point" in mostly-free societies is "we won't interfere with religions and their various bizarre claims...caveat emptor.") As far as I'm concerned, if a church can convince some yokels to pay $2500 for getting to eat a couple of pounds of Jesus every year (cooked, or Jesus tartare?), I'd say they've got a pretty good racket going. More supernatural power to them, I say! (And if the Clams can convince some out-of-work actors in Hollywood to pay $250,000 to be e-metered, have their engrams analyzed, and eventually "go clear," it seems like L. Ron made good on his bar bet with Heinlein that he could invent a new religion and make millions of buck. As another SF put it, "think of it as evolution in action.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

1 0

No Subject
by unknown＠example.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

! On Mon, 20 May 1996, Dave Harman wrote: ! ! > Qut may attend the meeting to verify the racial compositions of the group. ! > Results will be reported here. ! ! Please do. I'll buy you a beer. Qut has some skills in determining persentages of oriental race. It is widely suspected rich(a)c2.org of being an oriental. Thank you for the offer of a beer, however we boycott Coors because of Jewish connections. Qut

1 0

Re: SEVERE undercapacity, we need more remailer servers FAST
by jamesd＠echeque.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:08 AM 5/20/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > But any country that is "anti-Scientology" is likely to be > repressive in various ways we would find inimical to our goals. > [...] > > (The issue of how believable the claims of CoS are is no more relevant than > similarly outlandish claims that taking communion is eating the flesh of > JC.) The Australian law is (or was) based on the idea that if you charged someone $2500 for eating the flesh of christ, it then becomes legitimate for the government to check out whether or not the customer was getting actual flesh of Christ. This seems to me a lot less repressive than the American FDA. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

1 0

Re: SEVERE undercapacity, we need more remailer servers FAST
by jamesd＠echeque.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:08 AM 5/20/96 EDT, you wrote: > What countries are noticeable for being anti-Scientology? > They would appear to be good locations for special-purpose > remailer ultimate-output ends. Scientology was illegal in Australia last time I heard. They declared that you could not be a religion and charge a fee for religious service the way that Scientology charges. They then defined them as practicing medicine, and hit them with snake oil laws. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

1 0

Electronic Banking and Commerce Conference
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text From: "Ledig, Robert" <LEDIGRO(a)ffhsj.com> To: "'ecash mailing list'" <ecash(a)digicash.com> Subject: Electronic Banking and Commerce Conference Date: Mon, 20 May 96 12:22:00 edt Encoding: 279 TEXT Sender: owner-ecash(a)digicash.com Precedence: bulk Status: U 21st Century Banking Alert No. 96-5-20 May 20, 1996 ELECTRONIC BANKING AND COMMERCE CONFERENCE TO BE HELD IN WASHINGTON, D.C. ON JUNE 7, 1996 _________________________*________________________ FRIED, FRANK, HARRIS, SHRIVER & JACOBSON ARTHUR ANDERSEN LLP and THE SECURA GROUP * * * Present A One-Day Conference ELECTRONIC BANKING AND COMMERCE: FINDING YOUR PLACE IN THE FUTURE * * * June 7, 1996 8:00 a.m. to 5:45 p.m. Renaissance Hotel Washington, D.C. _________________________*________________________ ABOUT THE CONFERENCE Background 1996 is likely to be a pivotal year for the introduction of electronic banking and commerce in the United States. Among the major developments that will mark 1996 as an historic year in this field are: The Federal Reserve Board proposes the first major regulatory initiative to address the treatment of stored value products. Stored value cards are introduced to the public in a television commercial seen by millions during the Super Bowl followed by a high visibility pilot project during the Atlanta Summer Olympics. Visa and Mastercard reach agreement on protocol for secure transmission of credit card information over the Internet. Electronic cash becomes available for transmission over the Internet. Banks and software providers engage in a major effort to attract bank customers to on-line banking services. Usage of the World Wide Web for product marketing expands exponentially. Landmark telecommunications reform legislation is enacted. These developments present both an opportunity and a challenge for banks, financial services firms, technology providers and a wide range of commercial enterprises. The construction of the electronic financial services delivery system of the 21st Century will be driven by technology and will require a comprehensive reevaluation and realignment of consumer preferences, privacy, security, costs and conveniences. Simultaneously, these new delivery systems will be directly affected by emerging government regulation related to law enforcement, monetary policy, bank regulation and consumer protection. The conference is designed to provide participants with a broad insight into these factors, to hear from the leaders who will drive this process and thus offer participants a basis for evaluating the near and long term prospects for the banking industry and other financial services providers in the new world of electronic commerce. About the Sponsors Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson is a nationally recognized law firm with over 400 lawyers in New York, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, London and Paris. The firm's financial services practice is led by Thomas P. Vartanian, who has written and spoken widely on electronic banking and commerce issues and is a member of the editorial board of the Electronic Banking and Commerce Report. The firm offers the 21st Century Banking Alert Page*, which can be found on the World Wide Web at http//:www.ffhsj.com/bancmail/bancpage.htm. Arthur Andersen LLP is a unit of Andersen Worldwide, the leading professional services organization in the world with over 360 offices in more than 70 countries and over $8 billion in revenues. Arthur Andersen's Financial Markets Practice has a dedicated, international team of over 5,000 professionals who provide a full range of assurance, risk management, business consulting, economic and financial consulting and tax advisory services to over 10,000 financial services institutions in banking, capital markets and insurance. The Secura Group is among the nation's preeminent financial services consulting firms, offering strategic planning, financial advisory, organizational and management consulting, risk management, and regulatory counseling services to financial institutions throughout the United States. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., Secura also maintains offices in Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, New York and San Francisco. _________________________*________________________ PROGRAM 8:00 a.m. Breakfast Remarks by Daniel Eldridge, Vice President, DigiCash 9:00 a.m. Program Overview Dorsey L. Baskin, Jr., Partner, Arthur Andersen LLP Thomas P. Vartanian, Partner, Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson 9:15 a.m. What New Technology Means for Banks How will technology affect the competitive position between depository institutions? How much of a threat do banks face from non-bank competitors? What approaches are available to banks? John P. Danforth, Managing Director, The Secura Group Charles M. Nathan, Partner, Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson Thomas P. Vartanian, Partner, Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson Richard M. Whiting, Senior Director for Regulatory Affairs and General Counsel, The Bankers Roundtable 10:35 a.m. What New Technology Means for Non-Banks What are the prospects for Internet commerce? When does a non-bank become a bank? How will non-banks work with banks? Implications of the new telecommunications legislation. Robert H. Ledig, Partner, Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson Robert J. Lesko, Managing Partner, Financial Services Industry, ATT Solutions Thomas Nelson, Manager, Arthur Andersen LLP Phoebe Simpson, Analyst, Jupiter Communications 11:50 a.m. On-line Banking Options available to banks. Web site banking. Key considerations and risks for banks. Dorsey L. Baskin, Jr., Partner, Arthur Andersen LLP Lance Conn, Counsel, AOL Services 12:30 p.m. Lunch Remarks by Tim Jones, Chief Executive, Mondex 2:00 p.m. Stored Value Products and Smart Cards The Federal Reserve Board's proposed revision to Regulation E. Deposit insurance issues. Design and structure of these products. William F. Keenan, Senior Vice President, Marketing and Business Development, NatWest Bank (Delaware) Jeffrey M. Kopchik, Senior Policy Analyst, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation 3:00 p.m. Electronic Money Understanding the various models for electronic money. Legal and competitive issues. Credit card usage on the Internet. Jim Richardson, Senior Manager, Arthur Andersen LLP Frank O. Trotter, III, Senior Vice President and Director, International Markets Division, Mark Twain Bank Peter Wayner, Author, Digital Cash: Commerce On The Net 4:00 p.m. Public Policy Perspectives Implications for law enforcement. Systemic risks associated with electronic banking and commerce. Impact on the competitive position of banks and non-banks. Consumer interests in the new technology. Michael ter Maat, Ph.D., Senior Economist, American Bankers Association Stephen R. Kroll, Legal Counsel, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, U.S. Department of the Treasury Anne Wallace, Attorney-Advisor, Financial Management Service, U.S. Department of the Treasury, Janlori Goldman, Deputy Director, Center for Democracy and Technology 5:20 p.m. Open Discussion Period 5:45 p.m. Reception _________________________*________________________ Additional Program Information Conference attendees will receive a copy of DigitalCash: Commerce On The Net, a leading book on electronic money, along with a set of program materials. Continuing legal education credit is being applied for in numerous jurisdictions. If you have specific CLE questions, please contact Debbie Rizzo at (202) 639-7201. A limited number of rooms will be available for a special rate at the Renaissance Hotel, 999 Ninth Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. For reservations, please call the hotel directly at (202) 898-9000 (Ext. 3400) and reference Electronic Banking and Commerce. For further information on the conference, please contact Bob Ledig at 21stCen(a)ffhsj.com or (202) 639-7016. FAX REGISTRATION FORM To register, please fax this form to Debbie Rizzo at (202) 639-7008, or call her at (202) 639-7201. The fee for the conference is $235 if paid in advance ($295 at the conference location). Early registration is recommended as seating is limited. I/we will be attending the Electronic Banking and Electronic Commerce conference. _______________________________________________________________ Name(s) _______________________________________________________________ Title(s) _______________________________________________________________ Organization Name _______________________________________________________________ Address _______________________________________________________________ Telephone and Fax Numbers Credit Card Information: Visa Mastercard (Circle One) ___________________________________________________________________ Account No. ___________________________________________________________________ Expiration Date __________________________________________________________________ Signature If paying by check, please make payable to Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson and mail to Debbie Rizzo at Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson, Suite 800, 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20004-2505. Thomas P. Vartanian Robert H. Ledig David L. Ansell Washington, D.C. 202-639-7200 Visit the 21st Century Banking Alert Page on the World Wide Web at http://www.ffhsj.com/bancmail/bancpage.htm Copyright 1996. Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson. All rights reserved. 21st Century Banking Alert is a trademark and servicemark of Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver & Jacobson. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "If they could 'just pass a few more laws', we would all be criminals." --Vinnie Moscaritolo The e$ Home Page: http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/

1 0

Re: Is Chaum's System Traceable or Untraceable?
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:10 AM 5/20/96 -0700, Ian Goldberg wrote: >However, if you use the "fully anonymous" protocol, change becomes trivial. >You don't have to go online; the payer (the shop) does, which it assumedly >already is. Another benefit is that coins received in this way as change >are immediately spendable by you, without having to go online in between. Perhaps I am confused, but I see no need for change in the fully anonymous protocol. I see the fully anonymous protocol as: (1) The payee generates a coin for the amount of purchase, blinds it and gives it to the payer. (2) The payer blinds it again and gives it to the bank, which signs it debiting the payer's account. (3) The payer removes his blinding and gives the signed coin to the payee. (4) The payee removes his blinding and deposits the coin. Step 1 could be called a request for payment (an invoice), step 2 a withdrawal, step 3 the payment, and step 4 a deposit. Is there another version which allows the payee to have an unconnected wallet of coins and get change in return? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Frantz | The CDA means | Periwinkle -- Computer Consulting (408)356-8506 | lost jobs and | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | dead teenagers | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

2 1

An alternative to remailer shutdowns (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:02:08 -0700 > From: Hal <hfinney(a)shell.portal.com> > Subject: An alternative to remailer shutdowns > was apparently sent through my remailer. According to 18 USC 875(c), > "Whoever transmits in interstate commerce any communication containing > any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of > another, shall be fined not more than $1,000 or imprisoned not more > than five years, or both." I may not be able to continue operating > either of my remailers (alumni.caltech.edu and shell.portal.com) for > much longer due to this kind of abuse. There should be a section in there dealing with 'knowingly'. If not then we should immediately bring charges against any and all newspapers who have ever printer a ransom letter, or perhaps even the Unibomber Manifesto since there is clear evidence of 'threat to injure the person of another'. Jim Choate

3 2