December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Internet commerce mtg, Denver
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I went to an Internet commerce convention meeting in Denver last week, and thought some here would be interested in some of the topics and companies. the most important company I saw at the meeting is called "YellowNet". I knew this would happen someday, but this company is attempting to build up a *world wide* online business directory accessable over the web. they are trying to build up the infrastructure to handle up to 1M hits per day. a rep told me they were going to go all out in a publicity blitzkrieg at the beginning of Oct. , but for now they are getting ready for prime time. its currently a private company but I suspect they may go public in a year or two. the rep told me something interesting: he said that every Bell phone book is actually "seeded" with dummy names so they can detect copyright infringers. if you come out with a business directory, these Bells will just scan for the fake names that they have inserted into their own listings. if they find them, supposedly they can show them to a copyright judge and he will immediately close down your operation and fine you, almost no questions asked. I didn't know how much of this really happens (the legal stuff sounded questionable to me) but it is an interesting "real world" instance of copyright terrorism prevention that the "information liberation front" would have to contend with. the rep told me that they were willing to go to "phillipine calling houses" that do nothing but contract out to companies, and have the laborers dial the long lists of phone numbers to verify them. as I understand it they exist and supposedly the long distance is so cheap now that they are actually profitable being run out of the phillipines or wherever. he said his company was about to do this when they found a national CD directory of businesses, and they were grudgingly willing to license the CD informtion for the web pages. anyway, cpunks, you may be interested in getting into the ground floor of something like this. the yellow pages are an *extremely* lucrative source of income for phone companies and if they don't compete over the web, I think they are going to become increasingly obsolete-- esp. when the Web becomes accessable to the home more readily through e.g. cable companies. the URL: http://www.yellownet.com what I am suspecting however is that these kinds of services are going to be common, and it will not be that difficult to get your *pointer* into them for free. as far as them offering advertisements, though, I can't see how they could charge much more than a standard web site service charge for some pages. in other words, the days of hundreds of dollars for a display ad are probably not going to happen on the web, IMHO. and I don't see how they could charge for mere pointers at all, given that the competition will probably give them away. -- the other major companies at the show were generally large and small internet providers, and a lot of web page consulting firms (large and small). various network connection providers & consultants, etc. another thing I would like to clue everyone in on, if it isn't already obvious: the Web is going to go crazy as companies realize they can have dynamic forms to serve customers without any clerks required. this is going to be a *very* hot area of development over the next few years IMHO. it is really not that big of deal to have an inert "online brochure" but the technical capability required to do programming behind forms to interface with company databases is not trivial, and I think this is going to become an extremely hot occupation over the next few years. in other words, programmers who can customize web sites to interface to the existing company's databases and computer infrastructure will be very valuable. this is called "CGI"; many of you are probably already experts in it. (if you are, I'd like to talk to you about an application I'm trying to write...) examples of this are infinite, but a few: a customer could query the company inventory, find what stores are nearest to his home, find what store has what he wants in stock immediately, check on special prices and discounts of the moment, etc. he might be able to put himself on a company mailing list, etc. so far I have not seen this very widespread, these customized web applications, but I think they are really going to proliferate massively. I have also been seeing a lot of excitement over Java, and I think this really has the potential to become a "net standard binary interchange format". however I think the day when the Java apps are proliferating all over the net will be quite awhile away (6 mos or more at least) and that businesses are still probably going to want to use the more prosaic form interfaces for compatility and simplicity. Java is really starting out right, in that it begins as day 1 as a total free, open standard. Sun and Netscape are not claiming burdensome proprietary rights to it. this makes it amazingly attractive. the market has shown repeatedly that it will often go with an inferior open standard in preference to a technologically superior closed one. (and IMHO with good reason.. the market is pretty rational, just not in ways technophiles necessarily expect). another thing I saw that Sun is promoting: they now have Web authoring applications that require almost no HTML expertise whatsoever. you can drag and drop pictures where you want them in the documents etc. I suspect this may become the preferred way to work on web documents in the future to the point that people who actually memorize all the HTML commands may be in the minority. this actually argues in favor of a HTML that is not necessarily that pretty or syntactically consistent (of course, both aspects have already been pretty much lost in the mad rush to add new features anyway). -- another thing I'd like to point out is that there are a lot of hackers here with specialized knowledge into the web and perl and other tools, and in our culture (the cypherpunk list, e.g.) these things are considered pretty simple, mundane, and obvious, but there is an enormous business culture out there with a lot of money and not very many clues about this technology. the consulting opportunities for "small fries" are becoming very attractive and widespread. it is easy for us to say, "oh, that's no big deal, why would anyone pay money for that??" but in fact what is happening is that people are paying *big* money for simple things like HTML expertise. there were a total of about 50 classes at this show, and you'd be really surprised how many were on fairly basic subjects like "what is the internet? what is the web? what can it do for me?" etc. however many of these classes focused on secure banking transactions. and cryptographic expertise will probably move to the forefront of job requirements in about a year for these kinds of jobs, I would imagine. they will probably tend to emphasize the need for background in security related applications. right now there are a lot of toy, insecure applications but it is only a matter of time before people realize that if you really want to get serious, you have to have cryptography tied in and sharp people to plug all possible security holes, and you don't want stuff made out of "bubblegum and baling wire". so it appears that cypherpunks are really positioned on the crest of a tidal wave!! any of "us" who have been on the list in the pre-web era are beginning to feel like old fogeys from the prehistoric era!! it seems that cyberspace for the elite was born with the Internet, but "cyberspace for the unwashed masses" was born with the Web. --Vlad Nuri

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Re: Princes Die! / Re: None
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anonymous wrote: > like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells. > > - A'Tak A'Tdurn This couldn't mean that the attack at dawn is done, could it?

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Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bubba Rom Dos wrote: ... > Count the number of times you hear the press unwittingly mention that > she died just when her life was coming together and her star was rising. > When you are done counting, that is the number of reasons for why she > had to die. Think about it. > > ~~ > Bubba > ~~ Loose-cannon Diana became dead Saint Diana ala J.F.K. "What a wonderful person she is, now that she's gone." Why do the nefarious, omniprescent 'they' (TM) always announce the death by heart attack so many hours after rushing the target to the hospital? Does it have to do with airline schedules? Any reports of a second driver on the grassy knoll? Any guesses as to when the crash surviver bites it? !Bubba

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Re: Scientology tries to break PGP - and fails?
by Donald M. Kitchen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >hack..print out the idea key. >using the IDEA key directly. This would be a neat addition to PGP. It would be fun to take random data and slap PGP headers on it, and maybe throw in a real encryption that doesn't report the true IDEA key. It would be a valuable trick for StealthPGP / stego systems, if we ever need it. Don -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMFGJicLa+QKZS485AQH9vgMAwnofHnb7EOpcWVtCp9lWdySM2W7wAnQ5 wNvsKWrEW2aCK+lf1fvNUypLwXN5twA9W1ZLqVOqpJZMjLSVnoo9ulTOJ45hoF2p BZQGAaFqlnl6IQHbmA7l2vBt55GfWAnS =lDmq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- <don(a)cs.byu.edu> fRee cRyPTo! jOin the hUnt or BE tHe PrEY PGP key - http://bert.cs.byu.edu/~don or PubKey servers (0x994b8f39) June 7&14, 1995: 1st amendment repealed. Death threats ALWAYS pgp signed * This user insured by the Smith, Wesson, & Zimmermann insurance company *

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Re: Sigh Re: not a flame please read and think about this
by MMac102754＠aol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr anon, if you want to flame, sign your name. M MacLeish = MMac102754(a)aol.com

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Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Personally, I have to say that if *I* got a reply to an anonymous post before it had even reached its destination, I would start to worry... > bureau42 Anonymous Remailer wrote: > > > > Are there any Cypherpunks mailing list members who can confirm that > > there was a series of posts related to Princess Diana's death in the > > days before the event? I am particularly interested in information as > > to whether Cypherpunks were in any way responsible for a slight delay > > in the timing of her death. > > I am particularly interested in communicating with the person who sent > > me the anonymous messages between 8/24/97 and 8/30/97 using the nym > > "A'Tak A'Tdorn'. > > > > If you have information and an interest in sharing it, please send a > > post to the Cypherpunks list or the fight-censorship list, indicating > > such. If you wish for me to contact you through a neutral, third party, > > indicate that as well. > > > > Thank You > > If you have a death-wish, then send this message again through the > Canadian Mountie remailer. {:>)-----< > {HELP! They knocked me down and cut off my arms!} > > I presume the message you are referring to on 24/8/97 is the one > which answers your previous anonymous inquiry by saying, > "Only for the moment we are saying nothing." > It meant what it said. However, since the moment is over I suppose > there is no harm in saying "something." I will therefore give you > a modicum of information on the messages which have passed through > the cypherpunks list since your original notification that something > was in the wind. > For starters, although I have not seen the original email which you > received but I believe that if you read it closely you will see that > it implied that the coming messages to the list would be in a form > which was _analogous_ to the event, whereas you seemed to take it > literally as a plan to "Nuke D.C." > [How you managed to come to the conclusion that spooks and shadows > would refer to a coming event directly totally escapes me!?!] > If you will reinterpret the posts in question in light of the event, > I believe you will see the thread that winds through them. > > As you were told, the AOL'er messages were used as markers to divine > which of the coming messages contained stegonographic messages of one > sort or another, or pointers to graphics containing the stegonography. > I am assuming you understood this and sent the AOL'er message saying, > "Please send more details...thanks" > > If you had not taken the phrase "Nuke D.C." so literally you would > have noticed that the "Fade to Gray" post linked the coming major > event (Nuke D.C.) to foreigners, automobiles and death. > You were not alone in your request for details regarding the message > in the Quote of the day: > "I know the day it happens. On August 29, 1997 it's going > to feel pretty fucking real to you too." > which had been sent by one of the Canadians involved in ferreting out > the details of the coming event. > One of the cypherpunk list members posted the question, "When is X-Day > supposed to be?" when there was no mention of 'X-Day' in the quote. This > understandably led to postponement of the event while those involved > checked to see if there had been a breach in their security. > The subsequent message which stated, "I don't know what you mean by > 'When is X-Day supposed to be?'" was interpreted by those involved to > indicate that full details of their plans remained a mystery to those > who were trying to expose and stop it. > After they had put things in motion to proceed with their backup plan, > however, two more messages came to the list which indicated that there > was more known about their plan than they had suspected. > > In reply to the post expressing lack of knowledge about the timing of > X-Day, a post from _lne.com_ (surprise, surprise) suggested that X-Day > referred to people who are going to be "taken from the earth" (death) > by "pleasure saucers" (limosene) and noting that the limosene would > be operated by "Greys" (a reference to the <fade to grey> ending of > the "Fade To Gray" post--indicating a spook/LEA connection). The post > ended by suggesting the time of the event might be "April" (4 o'clock) > and gave a pointer to a sight with a graphic stego which would provide > a visual message. > > The second post that came well after it had been decided to proceed > with the backup plan said, > "The metallic custard scent ripped through the > stegosaurus' nostrils." > (metallic custard being a car bomb--note eye witness > accounts by Michael Solomon {who just happened to be > on the scene, naturally} speaking of a "loud explosion" > that brought to mind "terrorists."} > > "Clearly the meonotreme (Monarchist/Anarchist/Extremist) > journey it would begin as it had ended." > (The Fairy Tale Princess who had embarked on an extremist > political journey was about to return to becoming the > {dead} Fairy Tale Princess, once again.) > > "The ponder-tree hung itself in the heavy air, > it's sap becomming purple." > (Diana had sealed her death {"hung itself"} when she > opted to bond herself to Royal blood.) > > "And flowed enigmatically > like a river of broken curves and powdered eggshells." > (A reference to the immediate area of the planned event, > which would be at the split {"broken"} of a tunnel road > {"river"} and the airbags being sabotaged.) > > After this post appeared on the cypherpunks list, a Timmy C. Mayflower > ASCII art spam showed up on the list from a juno remailer, but it had > a Timothy C. May .sig following the artwork. (Followed by the proverbial > GJBuller response.) > Then both the juno remailer and the toad list experienced problems with > multiple messages being sent to _some_ people and _not_ others, as well > as _some_ people not getting certain messages at all. > You will also note that, as the "Fade To Gray" post indicated (re: all > the cypherpunks being "out of town" at the time of the event), there was > no activity on the list in the time surrounding the event. > As for the information in the graphic pointed to by the lne.com post, > it was never considered to be anything but an attempt at intentional > misdirection. > > You were told months ago that Diana's current power came from the > failure of the so-called suicide attempt and that the agreement to > leave her free to continue her public activities was contingent upon > her remaing free from political matters. You were also informed that > her involvement with the Labor Party land-mine issue was a breach of > that agreement, as was her June 13th reference to the resistance of > the Conservative party in this regard. > When you were contacted last week, you should have been able to figure > out for yourself what her link to the Harrods clan indicated. You were > made aware of everything you needed to be sitting on top of the story. > Given the fact that you have shown so little ability to act on the > information you have already been given, we are probably wasting our > time by giving you any further information. Regardless, if you wish to > pursue the matter then I suggest that you research: > a) the explosion > b) the driver's airbag > c) the liquid on the ground at the scene > d) the source of changes in the day's schedule > and/or the previous day's schedule > e) the details of who was involved in the arrest > {debriefing} of the photographers present > > If you _do_ manage to follow up on the information then we _might_ be > inclined to give you the details of Prince Charle's upcoming wedding > and coronation. > > : : B o o t s > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Confirmation on Diana, please?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Fuck Diana and Dodi, rotting garbage, germs, well ridded, like JFK. Up the paparazzi or whoever honored Labor Day doing dirty work, giving a lesson: run, can't hide. Two down, thousands more to go worldwide, the sooner the better, inshallah, scare the beasts back to bunker. Guards will drain their blood, day by day. Grieve for the driver, maybe the royal bitch's cop, praise Oswald or whoever.

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Re: Scientology/Wollersheim as test case for key disclosure
by dsc＠swcp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Phill <hallam(a)w3.org> wrote, >One solution to this problem would be to modify PGP so that the session >key for >the document was released rather than the passphrase for the public key. The >former would provide only read access, the latter would allow th >scientologists >to forge Wollerstein's signature on other material. In addition many of the >documents may be subject to privillege. It seems to me that if this kind of risk was seen ahead of time that a method doing the equivalent using ordinary PGP commands could be agreed upon by all involved. The document could be encrypted using "PGP conventional encryption" and the pass phrase for that could then encrypted using the public key. The encrypted document would thus consist of these two parts. The breaking of the traditional decryption into it's two parts would not be needed--superficial use of PGP would work. The owner of the public key--who is in possession of the document encrypted as suggested--when threated by an attacker--who is also in possession of the document--with an unbearably high cost for not giving up his secret key can offer to give up the the password for the "PGP conventional encryption". This method does not define how the password is obtained and that might be a weakness. I confess I'm new to PGP (and this subject in general) and am ignoring the suggestion in Tim May's FAQ that newbies try not to look clueless. Dar Scott =========================================================== Dar Scott Home phone: +1 505 299 9497 Dar Scott Consulting Voice: +1 505 299 5790 8637 Horacio Place NE Email: darscott(a)aol.com Albuquerque, NM 87111 dsc(a)swcp.com Fax: +1 505 898 6525 http://www.swcp.com/~correspo/DSC/DarScott.html ===========================================================

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Lost Pappa
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Patiently they laid in wait Originally there were eight Talk is cheap and so is jive So eight quickly turned to five Caving in, the hat, the beard Suddenly reappeared Now we have seven of eight The last, alas, is late...is late Don Dunne

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RSA licensing costs?
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Does anyone know how much RSA wants per desktop in a large client application? Using the BSAFE dereived licenses would be fine for this. (We're looking at 2-10k licenses for a nameless financial institution, doing those things that RSA likes. :) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -- Hume

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