December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Mandatory sig workaround
by jrochkin＠cs.oberlin.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:20 AM 12/01/94, Andrew Lowenstern wrote: >Roy Silvernail writes: >> Tim, just for fun, what tools would need to appear to make it >> possible for you to sign your traffic? Maybe a description will >> inspire some of the Macheads out there to get hacking. (the astute >> reader will note that I'm not suggesting new tools to the erstwhile >> Mr. May, as has been done so often in the past) > >Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't MacPGP allow you to sign things on the >clipboard? Are there any MacPGP users out there? If this is true (and I >think it is), then I don't see what's holding Tim back... Compose message, >select all, cut, sign, paste, deliver... Not only does MacPGP allow you to sign the clipboard, but there are applescripts available so you can sign the clipboard without even switching to MacPGP and doing it manually. Just choose the script from a pulldown menu, and everything happens automatically (you have to type in your passphrase, of course). Additionally, there are scripts for Eudora such that you dont' even need to mess with the clipboard. You choose one script from a menu, click on the "sign" button, and your outgoing mail is signed. It would be trivial to convert the script to sign automatically instead of asking you whether you want to sign, encrypt or both. For whatever reasons, the tools that are there aren't good enough for Tim. Which is fine, I admit they still aren't perfect, and Tim, from what I understand, has a complicated situation wherein mac tools aren't good enough, he needs unix tools too. Personally, I've found unix and mac tools that are easy enough for me to use, but maybe I'm just a gearhead. Eventually easy-to- use-by-Tim's-standards tools will come around, and he'll use them. Or they'll never come around, and he won't. But I think many of his posts are really misleading in implying that there aren't any relatively easy-to-use tools out there. Maybe they're not easy enough for Tim (and I'm not being at all disparaging here. I am perfectly willing to admit that there is quite a bit of room for improvement with the existing tools), but I think the existing tools are orders of magnitude better then what existed, say, 8 months ago. I use premail on the unix, and the formentioned applescripts on my mac, and I am finally using PGP relatively reguarly, whereas 8 months ago the tools just weren't available that were simple enough for me to use. Again, I don't mean to be knocking Tim here. If the tools still aren't easy enough to install/use for Tim, I respect that. I just don't want people to get the wrong idea, and think that there aren't _any_ tools out there, or that the cypherpunks haven't been doing anything and there hasn't been any improvement in tools. I see incredible improvement in ease-of-use of available tools in the past 8 months to a year. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6ui iQCVAgUBLt4A9/HuNBekDKXJAQFmcAP/UedPs8ddpt4EHXTuo1ZkYiGrn9J9zSuy 00xM7B1XkiqJqmyOXU8pDaEHkmnEw/wkVH8Ibi8Ve8CtIiNA8xU5EOOCdp7J+Zh8 XwMiZES/J4f28WuipfN5dRPbwRI+aySKdJazOx0Wio2z+X1mtKvBmLQMrH09OlQ0 p1xi1HaGc0k= =iMRI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: We are ALL guests (except Eric)
by jrochkin＠cs.oberlin.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

perry(a)imsi.com wrote: >Were Eric to trademark "Cypherpunks" and use it in trade as the name >of a mailing list, you could NOT create another one for the same >reason you couldn't sell "Coke". The fact that Eric has no interest in >doing this and doesn't claim to own the name does not change the >situation. I think it does change the situation. I'm not even sure if Eric _could_ trademark the name "cypherpunks". Isn't there a requirement that it not be "common usage" or something at the time your copyright it? Assuming Eric could trademark the list, but just chooses not to, then what's to stop _me_ from getting a trademark on the name "cypherpunks" when I start my own competing list? If I started a competing list, named it cypherpunks (or better-cypherpunks, or whatever), and trademarked the name "cypherpunks", would that mean that I owned the cypherpunks list? Or would Eric still own it? Or would nobody own it? Intellectural property is a tricky business, whether you are just looking at it from the legal perspective, or whether you are looking at it from an ethical or pragmatic perspective. And the issue of "ownership" of the cypherpunks list seems a particular tricky instance of intellectual property, from a legal, ethical, or pragmatic point of view. It really doesn't seem to me that Eric "owns" cypherpunks in the same way I own my car, or even in the same way that Coca-cola "owns" the coke trademark, and the formula used to make coke beverage. There are some fundamental differences in what's going on. Cypherpunks isn't so much a service being provided by Eric as it is a group undertaking by all of it's participants. If Eric were to suddenly decide to become a buddhist monk and not have anything to do with cypherpunks anymore, and if John Gilmore were suddenly to decide not to allow the cypherpunks list on his machine, the list wouldn't cease to exist. It wouldn't even be hurt much at all. It would just move to a different machine, and get a new list administrator.

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AUTOPGP
by Mark Terka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anyone know where I can get a copy of AUTOPGP? I'd like to try it out and see whether it has any advantages over YARN's integrated PGP functions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Terka | werewolf(a)io.org | public key (werewolf) by Toronto,Canada | dg507(a)cleveland.freenet.edu | public key server or request ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Mandatory sig workaround
by Andrew Lowenstern 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Roy Silvernail writes: > Tim, just for fun, what tools would need to appear to make it > possible for you to sign your traffic? Maybe a description will > inspire some of the Macheads out there to get hacking. (the astute > reader will note that I'm not suggesting new tools to the erstwhile > Mr. May, as has been done so often in the past) Perhaps I'm wrong, but doesn't MacPGP allow you to sign things on the clipboard? Are there any MacPGP users out there? If this is true (and I think it is), then I don't see what's holding Tim back... Compose message, select all, cut, sign, paste, deliver... andrew

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Brands excluded from digicash beta
by Hal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Last month I complained that my multiple attempts to request an account to try out the digicash beta-test ecash system had been ignored. I got half a dozen replies from people who had had exactly the same experience. Shortly afterwards, though, I got email from digicash saying that my account would be activated in a few days. This was on Oct. 21, and I have heard nothing since then. I just figured that I didn't have enough clout for them to bother to respond to me, but today on the www-buyinfo list, Stefan Brands, who many think has the best ecash technology available today, posted that he had had the same experience! Brands himself has still not been given an opportunity to join the beta test. He did not sound very happy about this. I can see that Chaum and Brands are potential competitors to an extent; they both have or will soon have patents which will be necessary for efficient offline systems. But it is clear to me that some form of cross licensing is going to be necessary to have a really clear patent situation. Under the circumstances it seems silly for Chaum to antagonize such an important player in the game. Of course, it may well be a matter of incompetence rather than insult, but the net result is the same. The more I see of digicash's lack of consideration towards their potential customers and important figures like Brands the more I question whether they have the potential to succeed. Hal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQBVAwUBLt35LhnMLJtOy9MBAQEyPwIA7gDKNK7T+vCp1I+YnUrsDb1sDhTWFO4T olTEgTZnLtbQMLe70bNni2jjL0SShFqHRpSNZbsEPt0UAdmf5Pcf+A== =MZXU -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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FWD: Oceania WWW site announcement
by Hal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- We have had some discussion on the topic of new countries here so I thought I would forward this short note. I haven't looked at the web page yet. Apologies if you've seen it already. ========== Forwarded message ========== SENDER: Eric Klien <oceania(a)terminus.intermind.net> Subject: ANNOUNCE: Oceania: The New Country - WWW Site A new web site has opened containing files related to the new country in development, Oceania. You may get the Constitution and Laws, plus information on related books such as The Atlantis Papers and The Millennial Project. You may also view true color pictures of Oceania plus view back issues of the Oceania Oracle. Animations of Oceania are also online as well as information on how to receive an Oceania passport. The web is located at http://unicycle.cs.tulane.edu/oceania -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQBVAwUBLt4BKhnMLJtOy9MBAQHt+AIAiJtsWrq+eQQ57xk9/XXuMtQ5eGUO2laV piQBPtpOQvn/2/tum3YUwG24cAhY3SleFynFXOzxJury7EbvRYStwA== =K3yA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: We are ALL guests (except Eric)
by jrochkin＠cs.oberlin.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:04 PM 12/01/94, James A. Donald wrote: >Jonathan Rochkind writes >> Assuming Eric could trademark the list, but just chooses not to, then >> what's to stop _me_ from getting a trademark on the name "cypherpunks" when >> I start my own competing list? > >Nothing, other than the fact it would not be the cypherpunks list, and >there would not be a mass migration from Eric's list to yours. Well yeah. That was my point. Whatever "ownership" Eric has of the list isn't dependent on trademarks, or on the fact that he was one of the "originators" of the list. It's dependent on the fact that we all use the cypherpunks that Eric administrates. Of course there is nothing to directly stop Eric from doing whatever he wants to configure the particular software currently running cypherpunks to do whatever he wants. But some of us, or most of us, or all of us, could just move to another list. Nearly painlessly, if the new list we moved to were set up to mirror the "real" cypherpunks, but without whatever rules we don't like. "The cypherpunks list" isn't the particular process that happens to be running on toad.com right now. It's not even the address "cypherpunks(a)toad.com." Eric has control over one of those, and John Gilmore has control over the other one, but "the cypherpunks list" isn't either of those, it's the group of subscribers and the articles they write, and no one "owns" that.

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Re: We are ALL guests (except Eric)
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Eric Hughes These discussions on the interest of power are fascinating to me. So many of them do not take into account my own desires to create a useful discussion forum, which desires bind me tighter than any law ever could. There are some very interesting implications of this _de facto_ solipsism to achievement of equilibria in games with iterated dominance. ......................................................................... Eric is so cool for starting a flame war about his authority, on his very semi-own list. Turn-around is fair play, do unto others, and all that. For myself, I list below some items of importance which I would look for in deciding whether to participate with expectations of complicity to any given 'rules': . advance knowledge of the requirements & procedures . whether they are consistent with the purpose they serve . whether there has been an intelligent argument presented which would convince me that it is more advantageous to do as expected, than not . that there have been means provided to be able to follow through, or that . there has been information provided on how to obtain the means needed for follow through . that information is available on how to overcome the obstacles & difficulties which could prevent adherence to the given requirements i.e., that those who place certain requirements upon membership also make it possible to comply with them by preparing the way, making it easy to do so and providing sufficient appeal to make it worth the trouble. Blanc

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New signing service
by cactus＠bb.hks.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Okay, this is a-what *I* am going to do right now. Today, I'll throw together a mechanism on cypherpunks(a)hks.net that will sign all messages coming through it and send them on to cypherpunks(a)toad.com. It'll have a key with a 384-bit modulus, included below. It will not (now) check signatures on incoming mail. It might in the future. To be clear, this is not what I suggested before: I will not be generating a new key for each message. This is also not a service that guarantees the integrity of mail before it reaches here: mail can easily be forged to this site. This will guarantee one and only one thing: that a message signed by this service has been received by cypherpunks(a)hks.net and forwarded to cypherpunks(a)toad.com. The only thing that this prevents is having mail forged to a subset of cypherpunks appear as though it went to all of cypherpunks. If this is successful I can later go on to attack the signing question, though I think key management is likely to be a genuine pain in the ass for that, probably requiring human interaction on a per-key basis. Also, when the software works smoothly it could be moved to toad.com. I think part of the job of mailing list software is to guarantee the integrity of the envelope a message: signing all messages is a clear step towards that goal. Please send comments to me directly at cactus(a)hks.net, since I won't necessarily be catching up on cypherpunks while I'm working on this. -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQA9Ay7eB60AAAEBgOGkDzo6mkSp3G4W3EXwMWK8SrTVSmosuN5Y7Z2FdBS5uJ3o 1O0XNAwqGc8CJ9W3bQAFEbQuQ3lwaGVycHVuayBzaWduaW5nIGFnZW50IDxjeXBo ZXJwdW5rc0Boa3MubmV0Pg== =ajZM -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -- Todd Masco | "Roam home to a dome, Where Georgian and Gothic once stood cactus(a)hks.net | Now chemical bonds alone guard our blond(e)s, cactus(a)bb.com | And even the plumbing looks good." - B Fuller

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Phbbbbbbbbt!
by merriman＠metronet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

***************** Begin PKP Signed Message ***************** Version 3.14159 A Proposal That It Be Resolved: * That Eric can, and will, do as he sees fit with the Cypherpunks mailing list on toad.com. * That Eric can, and will, do whatever he's going to do, whenever he does it. * That many have made their positions clear - amply, and repeatedly - on what they think of the various proposals put forth in response to Eric's initial posting, the clarifications, the clarified clarifications, the counter-proposals, counter-counter-proposals, ad nauseum. * That if/when Eric does something that those on the Cypherpunks mailing list do/don't agree with (or otherwise find inconvenient, distasteful, awkward, reprehensible, foolish, appropriate, called-for, suitable, necessary, ad nauseum), they will respond as they feel appropriate. * That responses to any actions taken by Eric may include letters of support/condemnation, forged/faked information, leaving in a snit/huff/quietly/loudly, formation of a C1Ph3rD00Dz mailing list, ranting, raving, cheering, applause, or whatever else the individual may feel appropriate. * That Eric has had ample opportunity to see the response to his proposal, and will therefore take it into consideration as he feels appropriate. * That the subject will not be properly addressed and resolved until and unless some _definitive_ action occurs. * That until and unless such action occurs, anything else is so much flailing about madly, with a fair measure of High Blood Pressure and Hurt Feelings tossed in. * That the subject has now been flogged to death, and that further discourse on it only serves to fragment the CP mailing list. Respectfully Submitted Dave Merriman ***************** Begin PKP Signature ***************** 1 ******************************************************* ****************** End PKP Signed Message ****************** - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Finger merriman(a)feenix.metronet.com for PGP public key and fingerprint. PGP encrypted Email welcome, encouraged, and preferred. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F. Kennedy

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