This is a captured chat from the Time Magazine, Time Odeon Online Forums.
On America Online, my handle is RayDude.
I unfortunately didn't get into the confrence in time to catch its
begining. However as there's a transcript of every such confrence,
I'll post that up as well. As I just go this immediatly after the
confrence, there's no *OFFICAL* transcript posted online, however
when one becomes available, I will send it here...
(In the AOL "audience" you can only chat with those in your own
row. All messages preceded by (6) are by those in my row.
This is kind of messy, but you can still follow all the simultaneous
discussions with a bit of effort.)
You can send me internet mail at rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu if you
wish, or RayDude(a)aol.com, however I prefer the photon machine.
Barlow1 : improved traffic analysis. Content is less important
than context, and most agents will
Barlow1 : support this.
Shuddup : (6) I really don't accept the traffic analysis
argument. That's too much work!
COUNTMINDO : (6) i just don't like having a product forced on me,
we don't all have to buy FORD's if we want to
COUNTMINDO : (6) deal with the government
RPTime : Another question from the audience. JCMaille asks...
Barlow1 : By the way, I'm not seeing my responses. Am I still
online?
Question : Does the government have a constitutional right of
access to my personal communications?
RPTime : Yes, John you are!
RayDude : (6) RE: Traffic analysis: bet on it. It can be done
and very easily over the internet as is.
Kyrahn : (6) or as if gun controll has taken semi automatic
guns and or automatics
RayDude : (6) It will be much easier when the cable companies
give you a net-feed.
RPTime : Dr. Denning, why don't you go first?
Barlow1 : hello?
Shuddup : (6) But why bother with TA? Cost high, payoff low.
Most of us are not evil!
MegSaint : (6) Shuddup, since when has inefficency ever stopped
the governmnt from doing something?
Barlow1 : hello?
DDenning : The Supreme Court ruled that wiretaps with a court
order are Constitutional.
Barlow1 : hello?
DDenning : At one time, communications were not even protected
under the
RayDude : (6) To cite an example, my girlfriend went on
vacation to HK. I'm not Chinese, but because I called
HK,
COUNTMINDO : (6) JPB is having troubles
DDenning : 4th Amendment. The government could wiretap without
a court order!
Shuddup : (6) Right, but there;s almost always a reason - even
if it is just to prove that we can...
DDenning : Now a court order is required.
RayDude : (6) AT&T sent me an offer to call HK for much less.
This was half a year AFTER I called Hong Kong!!!
Kyrahn : (6) crazy
RayDude : (6) AT&T keeps track of EVERY call you make. If
telephones have this much traffic analysis,
PhilipED : To put the question another way, do citizens have a
right to use powerful encryption?
RayDude : (6) so will the info highway!
Shuddup : (6) Sure, but again - why?
DDenning : Right now there are no laws preventing the use of any
encryption.
Shuddup : (6) AT&T sells phone time. They have a reason.
DDenning : Clipper is voluntary. You can still use something
else.
RPTime : We have to apologize. John Barlow has temporaily
lost his connection...
MegSaint : (6) I think we lost JPB!
Shuddup : (6) BIG BROTHER! PARANOIA!
RayDude : (6) No, they are REQUIRED to keep records by the FCC,
another branch of the government.
Kyrahn : (6) I've lost my mind :>
Shuddup : (6) :-)
PhilipED : Dr. Denning, in your opinion...
COUNTMINDO : (6) they got him
RayDude : (6) hehehe!
PhilipED : would a law outlawing powerful encryption be
unconstiotutional?
Shuddup : (6) >:-(
Kyrahn : (6) it's not paranoia when they really plan to do it
Shuddup : (6) The problem is to figure out why. Never ascribe
to malice what can be explained by stupidity!
MegSaint : (6) Or beauracracy, which may be the same thing
DDenning : I don't think so. But that doesn't mean it will
happen.
Shuddup : (6) Right..
COUNTMINDO : (6) they want to keep the status quo, but who's to
say that that is right?
PaulR42 : (6) Can Clipper break PGP2.3?
RayDude : (6) Keep in mind that the NSA no longer have the
Russians to spy on. So they need new targets. Us!
RPTime : John Barlow is back with us. Sorry for the
interruption!
MegSaint : (6) Did she mean she doesn't think there will be a
law or she doesn't think it will be unconst.?
Shuddup : (6) Yeah, but why? What do we got?
RayDude : (6) They need to be entertained, so they'll spy on
everyone they can citing all sorts of rants
PaulR42 : (6) Welcome back, John.
COUNTMINDO : (6) hooray back from the beyond
Shuddup : (6) ;-)
PhilipED : Barlow, Denning just said she didn't think a law
banning powerful encryption would be unconstitutional
RayDude : (6) about "What if the drug dealers, terrorists,
child molesters, and pornographers" get strong
crypto?
PhilipED : What do you say?
Barlow1 : Hi folks. Don't know what happened. Gald to be back
Kyrahn : (6) kinda like algebra let stupidity=Beauracracy
PhilipED : Gald indeed!
MegSaint : (6) Crooks already *have* strong crypto!
RayDude : (6) Nope, as far as the cypherpunks can tell PGP is
still strong. DES has been broken.
Kyrahn : (6) multiply by x agencies
PaulR42 : (6) Use the RSA scheme?
Barlow1 : Actually, I believe that our current export embargoes
are a violation of the 1st Amendment
RayDude : (6) That's the point. Crooks already have strong
crypto, but the rest of us wont if UncleSam gets his
w
RayDude : (6) way
Barlow1 : which specifically speech without regard to the
manner of speech. If we could restrict manner
COUNTMINDO : (6) and the crowd began chanting CANTWELL CANTWELL
CANTWELL
Kyrahn : (6) I am Not a Crook
Barlow1 : of speech, it would be constitutional to require that
everyone speak English. Which of course it isn't
MegSaint : (6) Cantwell? Explain please
PaulR42 : (6) BTW, PGP is classified as munitions.
RayDude : (6) Neither am I. But face it, the NSA doesn't want
anyone to have strong crypto except themselves.
PhilipED : John, can you make the case why ordinary law-abiding
citizens need powerful encryption?
Kyrahn : (6) so is any encryption program
COUNTMINDO : (6) CANTWELL is the rep. who is trying to pass a bill
to do away with the export law on encryption
RayDude : (6) Yet, you can FTP PGP from Finland. You can import
IDEA from outside the country too. Munitions indee
COUNTMINDO : (6) classifying it as a munition
Kyrahn : (6) importing is o.k.
Barlow1 : Because it is in the nature of digitally networked
communications to be quite visible. Everytime
MegSaint : (6) Thanks, good informtation. Where have I been?
Kyrahn : (6) just don't try to send it
Barlow1 : we make any sort of transaction in a digital
environment, we smear our fingerprints all over
Barlow1 : Cyberspace.
RayDude : (6) If you guys want, you can subscribe to the
cypherpunks mailing list
Kyrahn : (6) 'cause they can throw you in jail
COUNTMINDO : (6) no thanks
COUNTMINDO : (6) heavy traffic
RayDude : (6) by sending a message to
cypherpunks-requests(a)toad.com with subscribe in the
subject and body.
PaulR42 : (6) What's the address?
Barlow1 : If we are to have any privacy in the future, we will
need virtual "walls" made of cryptography.
MegSaint : (6) RayDude, what's the address?
RayDude : (6) Beware, that you'll get over 70 messages a day!
Kyrahn : (6) black "ice"
PaulR42 : (6) And the NSA on your tail.
RayDude : (6) Do you guys know about "SecureDrive?"
COUNTMINDO : (6) holy gibson batman
Kyrahn : (6) nope
Kyrahn : (6) flatman
RPTime : Another audience question...
Question : isn't like the gun argument? if guns are outlawed
only criminals will have guns, well if
Question : clipper is standardized, won't criminals be the ones
NOT using it?
RayDude : (6) SecureDrive is a DOS program that will give you
an encrypted hard drive using the IDEA cypher. Very
RayDude : (6) secure.
RPTime : Dr. Denning?
COUNTMINDO : (6) hey that's my question
Kyrahn : (6) not grock dos
MegSaint : (6) Wow!
Kyrahn : (6) am on mac
RayDude : (6) I sent about 6 questions so far.. haven't seen
any yet.. must be slow..
Kyrahn : (6) patience
DDenning : If Clipper becomes the de facto standard, then it
will be the chief method
RayDude : (6) Re: MAc Secure drive: no worries, I'm writing one
for the Mac. Send me a message in two monts.
MegSaint : (6) There are over a hundred people here
Kyrahn : (6) cool
RayDude : (6) two months... sorry
PaulR42 : (6) Is it my imagination, but are the main
participants fading out....?
DDenning : of encryption. That would be what you'd get at Radio
Shack. What criminals
RayDude : (6) Cool, but very hard to write... Re: fading out,
no, were just talking too fast. :-)
DDenning : use will depend on what is readily available and what
their cohorts are using.
MegSaint : (6) Do we have better connections than the net
heavies?
COUNTMINDO : (6) such as PGP
Kyrahn : (6) Raydude-> at AOL?
RayDude : (6) As cypherpunks we are planning to give out free
disks with crypto at the next PC Expo in NYC. If
DDenning : Both parties of a conversation have to use the same
thing. Criminals also talk to
PaulR42 : (6) Cool, RayDude!
RayDude : (6) any of you dudes are in NYC at the time, look us
up. :-) (RayDude@aol, or rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu
DDenning : a lot of people outside their immediate circle -
e.g., to buy goods and services.
Kyrahn : (6) cool
DDenning : Also, they can be quite stupid at times. But the
main thing is that criminals will
Kyrahn : (6) you can reach me here on AOL
COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks mbone conference, watch for it soon
DDenning : not be able to take advantage of the SKIPJACK
algorithm as a way of concealing
DDenning : their conversations. This is the whole point. It
is not to catch criminals. It is
DDenning : to allow people access to a really high quality
algorithm in a way that someone
COUNTMINDO : (6) what bullshit!
MegSaint : (6) Countmindo, "cypherpunks *mbone* conference? I
don't get it.
DDenning : cannot use it to conceal criminal activity.
Kyrahn : (6) it gets deeper all the time
Barlow1 : The gun analogy is excellent up to a point. I can't
for the life of me imagine why we would think that
PaulR42 : (6) Where's the shovel?
COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks are putting together an mbone
conference, video and audio over the net
Barlow1 : even a stupid criminal would use Clipper if something
else were available. And when I talk
MegSaint : (6) In other words, anyone not using Clipper will be,
de facto, a crook.
Barlow1 : to people in the administration their big hobgoblin
is the *nuclear-armed" terrorist. Any fanatic
Kyrahn : (6) that's it
RayDude : (6) In other words, crypto except for clipper will be
illegal!
Barlow1 : smart enough to assemble and detonate a nuclear
device is going to be smart enough to download
COUNTMINDO : (6) yeah de-facto illegal
Barlow1 : PGP from a bulletin board somewhere.
RayDude : (6) I wish I had a sparc station to join the mbone
conf.. hope one of you will have transcripts.
Kyrahn : (6) red flags for anyone not using clipp you wings
PaulR42 : (6) Right on, John!
Barlow1 : Also, I'd like to point out that the gun analogy
doesn't go the whole distance. Crypto is by its
RayDude : (6) Fuck clipper, we have to spread PGP far and wide
making it tough to outlaw it.
COUNTMINDO : (6) cool he kicks dennings ass off my question!!
Barlow1 : nature a purely *defensive* technology. You can't
shoot people with it.
RayDude : (6) Yeah! Barlow!!! Go, Go, Go!!!!
PhilipED : Speaking of PGP, Dr. Denning, is that encryption
system secure, in your opinion?
COUNTMINDO : (6) ooo good one.
PaulR42 : (6) Here it is...
RayDude : (6) hahahah!
RayDude : (6) Lets see if the NSA cracked PGP yet!!
PaulR42 : (6) she'll sidestep it.
COUNTMINDO : (6) that gets my bet
DDenning : I don't know of anyone who's been able to break the
IDEA algorithm that it uses.
RayDude : (6) Time to pull a Ronnie Reagan, for Denning...
Kyrahn : (6) they are working on it
COUNTMINDO : (6) oh she said it!!!
RayDude : (6) Bullshit! PGP uses RSA and IDEA!
RPTime : Back to the audience for a question from Steve HW..
COUNTMINDO : (6) wake up the neighbors
MegSaint : (6) Wait, I thought PGP was RSA
PaulR42 : (6) What's the diff?
Question : This is for Dr. Denning. What is the evidence of
harm if the Clipper proposal is not
Question : adopted?
RayDude : (6) RSA uses public/private keys meaning you can
publish your key and anyone can send you a 100%
RayDude : (6) private message
Kyrahn : (6) the trick is to have something that mutates when
someone attemps to "illegally" break it
PaulR42 : (6) And IDEA?
DDenning : The harm would be to the government. They would not
be able to use it and would
RayDude : (6) With idea, you can't spread your key. It's the
only thing that protects your code.
Kyrahn : (6) call it BackFire
DDenning : have to resort to something less secure. Also,
Clipper is part of a larger
COUNTMINDO : (6) awwww poor government
RayDude : (6) IDEA uses only one password. PGP gives you a
public & private. Your can only read your mail
DDenning : project to make hardware available for encryption and
digital signatures. This
RayDude : (6) if you decrypt it with your private key when
someone scrambles it with your public key.
MegSaint : (6) So what was Denning talking about then?
RayDude : (6) Hence anyone can send you 100% private mail
without knowing your secret keyword.
Kyrahn : (6) RipemMac use dual components
DDenning : will be used, for example, in the Defense Message
System. The goverment
DDenning : needs a new standard.
PaulR42 : (6) OK, I get it now.
Kyrahn : (6) but is still under developement :<
RayDude : (6) A bit of trivia, did you guys know that our
contries founding fathers were crooks?
COUNTMINDO : (6) then let the government use what they want and
let us use what we want
Kyrahn : (6) of course!
DDenning : I personally believe that making really powerful
encryption like SKIPJACK available
RayDude : (6) Thats right, they were sumglers, trying to evade
Englands taxes. Hence for the constitution
COUNTMINDO : (6) god bless 'em ;)
PaulR42 : (6) Explain, RayDude, that can't possibly be true.
RayDude : (6) having lots of protections against abuse!
DDenning : without key escrow could be harmful to society.
Wiretaps have been essential
Kyrahn : (6) same thing with most "city" Fathers
RayDude : (6) Too bad they didn't put in privacy protection
too. :-I
Shuddup : (6) Right. Cops got search warrants, I got a door
lock; cops make mistakes, but I'm worried about
crooks
PaulR42 : (6) So even Geo. Washington said "I am not a crook?"
RayDude : (6) Their idea was to have a tiny government, only to
serve, not to rule.
Shuddup : (6) I just want to pick my own size and cost of
doorlock!
DDenning : for preventing and solving many serious crimes and
terrorist activities.
Barlow1 : Why on earth would the government have to use
something else if they failed to get the rest of
Kyrahn : (6) I am Not A Crook!!
RayDude : (6) It's a matter of view point. To the Brits he was
a crook & traitor. To us a hero. But the
Barlow1 : rest of us to buy into this folly?
COUNTMINDO : (6) but she said it wasn't to stop criminals
RayDude : (6) smuggling was not a publicised thing.
PaulR42 : (6) One man's revolutionary is another man's freedom
fighter.
Barlow1 : Hey, they are already using SKIPJACK. It's a
government algorithm and has been in use for a
Kyrahn : (6) besides the rest of the world will not use
clipper
Shuddup : (6) I think she DID say that clipper was to stop
illegal wiretaps, or at least that it could.
DDenning : CPSR and others are asking the government to drop
Clipper.
Barlow1 : long time. There are plenty other algorithms which we
can use which are truly protected... unless of
PaulR42 : (6) And it's a good thing too, Dorothy!
Kyrahn : (6) so it stands to reason that the crooks you worry
about will use some exotic
Shuddup : (6) Right!
RayDude : (6) BTW: Over the internet we have an 80% petition
rate!!! 80% of the internet opposes clipper!
Barlow1 : course, this is only the first step in a process
which will outlaw other forms of crypto. And I
Kyrahn : (6) and over 100 major companies
COUNTMINDO : (6) i signed my electro petition
Barlow1 : believe that it must be. Makes absolutely no sense
otherwise.
MegSaint : (6) I'll be sending in my petition soon. Just got the
latest CPSR Alert with the address.
RayDude : (6) I put my name on Satan's list, yeah baby I did..
:-)
Barlow1 : EFF is not asking the Government to drop Clipper,
though we would vastly prefer they did. We're
PaulR42 : (6) But most Americans have no idea what the NSA is
trying to do with Clipper. And is has such a nice na
PaulR42 : (6) me
Barlow1 : merely asking that no steps be taken to require it
either by law or practice...as, for example, would
RayDude : (6) That's why I'm going to give out free disks at
PCExpo... If we can raise some
Barlow1 : be the case if you had to use a Clipper chip to file
your tax return.
RayDude : (6) eyebrows from big businesses, we can raise
everyone's eyebrows eventially
PhilipED : Dr. Denning, do you think this is the "first step in
a process to outlaw crypto"?
RayDude : (6) eventually. (sorry)
COUNTMINDO : (6) no, no way, yeah that's the ticket...
DDenning : No I do not. The government has not been using
SKIPJACK to my knowledge.
Kyrahn : (6) well I got to go/ But keep in touch!
DDenning : The Clipper initiative represents the first time that
the government has put
PaulR42 : (6) Can a MacPGP encrypted message be decyphered by a
PC user, and vice versa? Is there PGP for PCs?
Kyrahn : (6) :->
MegSaint : (6) Bye Kyrahn
Shuddup : (6) bye
COUNTMINDO : (6) bye
PaulR42 : (6) See ya!
RayDude : (6) Oh, DDenning has knowledge about what the gov has
been using????
RayDude : (6) Bye K.
DDenning : one of their really good algorithms out there in the
unclassified arena. They
COUNTMINDO : (6) bet your ass she does
RayDude : (6) BTW: Which of you wanted the Mac or PC Secure
drive? I can send'em to you?
HotRodKart : (6) Being that this my first rodeo on the E/F I
wonder if this damn thing really works?
MegSaint : (6) Paul, I believe the answer to bothe or your
questions is "Yes"
DDenning : are trying to do this in a way that won't backfire
against the public. Other
PaulR42 : (6) Thanks, Meg
MegSaint : (6) Ray, I would be interested in the Mac Secure
Drive
DDenning : NSA developed algorithms are not available for
purchase by the public.
Barlow1 : I appreciate their willingness to make some of that
COUNTMINDO : (6) more audience questions, c'mon!
Barlow1 : crypto research available to a public which has paid
so much for it, but I'm afraid that I would
RayDude : (6) I'm here on AOL.. Just send mail to RayDude. :-)
MegSaint : (6) Heck, the government developed these algorithims
with OUR money! Yes John!
RayDude : (6) Or if you have internet access, it'll be faster
to send me mail to rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu
Barlow1 : never trust an algorithm which was given to me by any
government. And I certainly don't trust
PaulR42 : (6) Is Barlow1 JPB's aol address?
MegSaint : (6) Will do, RayDude.
Barlow1 : a classified algorithm like Skipjack, even without
PaulR42 : (6) Right on John!!!!
Barlow1 : a back door which everyone can see. I think I'll
stick to systems which have been properly vetted
MegSaint : (6) Barlow1 may be a temporary address.
Barlow1 : to be clear of such compromises, like RSA. I hope
others will do likewise and that RSA will become
PaulR42 : (6) uh huh
Barlow1 : the standard which Clipper shouldn't be.
MegSaint : (6) I find it hard to believe that Denning hangs out
on AOL
RPTime : Time for one more question from our audience...
Question : To John Barlow. Isn't society becoming increasingly
vulnerable to concerted
Question : criminal/terrorist disruption, requiring *stronger*
law enforcement tools?
RayDude : (6) Meg, gotcha in my address book... will send a
copy when it's done. Want a beta, or want to wait?
COUNTMINDO : (6) holy right winger, batman
PaulR42 : (6) I wonder if Denning listens to the Dead?
PaulR42 : (6) Dumb question, sorry
COUNTMINDO : (6) naw, funny one
MegSaint : (6) I'll take beta. What's life with out a little
risk?
Barlow1 : Gee. I don't know. It's a scary world. However, I'm
willing to take my chances with the few terrorists
COUNTMINDO : (6) life without risk = disneyland
RayDude : (6) booooo.... stupid question! I've sent so many
good ones, why take that one?
MegSaint : (6) Some might consider Barlow a terrorist
Barlow1 : and drug lords there are out there rather than
trusting government with the kind of almost unlimited
PaulR42 : (6) I'll bet she hasn't eaten as many shrooms at Dead
concerts as JPB <g>
RayDude : (6) disneyland=lawyers, lawsuits, cops,
big-mickey-brother, etc... bad, bad bad!
Barlow1 : surveillance power which Clipper and Digital
Telephony would give them. It's a touch choice. But
MegSaint : (6) So why did you send the stupid one, RayDude :)
Barlow1 : when you look at the evil perpetrated by government
over this century in the name of stopping crime,
RayDude : (6) That wasn't mine Meg.. But I should have sent a
stupid one.. them's the only ones accepted...
RayDude : (6) it seems...
Barlow1 : it far exceeds that done by other organized
criminals.
COUNTMINDO : (6) hey mine was accepted :(
PhilipED : Dr. Denning, hasn't remote listening technology
enhanced police abilities to eavesdrop to the
point...
RayDude : (6) Sorry :-)
MegSaint : (6) Oops, misunderstood your comment. <just kidding,
anyway>
PhilipED : where the loss of a few wire taps won;t mean much?
PaulR42 : (6) Hasn't Time Mag cooperated with the CIA and
helped them obtain info in the sixties?
Shuddup : (6) It wouldbe interesting to know how many questions
where sent up!
RayDude : (6) Sorry Count... didn't mean it like that...
DDenning : No. They need to get the cooperation of the service
providers to implement
MegSaint : (6) Do they *have* to or are they just supposed to ?
COUNTMINDO : (6) is this thing over at 10?
HotRodKart : (6) TIME = LEFT
RayDude : (6) More like cooperation of the service providers or
the service providers will be fined $10K a day!!!
DDenning : a wiretap. The loss of some wiretaps could be costly
indeed. As an example,
RayDude : (6) The FBI digital telephony bill requires that all
networks have a spy line or they pay $10K a day!
RayDude : (6) if the damn thing passes!
DDenning : wiretaps were used to help solve a case that involved
plans by a Chicago
DDenning : gang from shooting down a commercial airliner. There
have been 2 cases where
COUNTMINDO : (6) Cub, White Sock, Bull?
DDenning : they helped save the lives of kids who were going to
be kidnaped for the making
DDenning : of a snuff murder film. They helped solve a case
where a man's house was going
COUNTMINDO : (6) c'mon boss, who's going to use voice encryption
anyways?
RayDude : (6) Oh yeah, right, surrrre... good ones...
PaulR42 : (6) Gag me, Dorothy.
DDenning : to be bombed. I could go on. If we take John's
arguments about law enforcement
DDenning : to their logical conclusion, we'd just get rid of law
enforcement. I think it's better
RayDude : (6) Why should we as tax payers pay $10Billion a year
for Clipper when only 10-15 wiretap warrants are
DDenning : to have it. The people in law enforcement hate it as
much as the rest of us when
RayDude : (6) actually given out to law enforcement agents per
year?
RayDude : (6) Is $10Billion the cost of 10 or so wire taps a
year???? I think not!
DDenning : some member of the community does something wrong.
And they correct it,
RayDude : (6) It's only for spying on us!
DDenning : design new procedures and laws where necessary, and
go on.
Barlow1 : Oh, please. I'm not proposing eliminating police. I'm
opposing giving them unlimited powers.
COUNTMINDO : (6) foreign countries will laugh at this
Barlow1 : Also,these are the same cases cited over and over by
everyone from you to Judge Freeh.Surely, we
RayDude : (6) BTW: They plan on exporting clipper. What
country would be stupid enough to use a chip that
will le
RayDude : (6) the USA spy on their private stuff?
Barlow1 : aren't going to fundamentally change the balance of
Barlow1 : power in this country because of these two
(undocumented, to my knowledge) stories.
RayDude : (6) BTW: there's talk that the recent espionage case
is simply media fodder incited by the NSA so that
COUNTMINDO : (6) guess it doesn't end at 10...
RayDude : (6) they can say "Look, with encryption we wouldn't
have been able to catch'em!"
DDenning : Clipper is not going to change the balance of power.
It does not give
RayDude : (6) "So we need clipper and we need to ban all other
encryption"
RayDude : (6) Ohhh, yeah, clipper isn't going to change the
balance... pure raw, grade A-bull$#it!
DDenning : law enforcement any additional authority to do
wiretaps.
Barlow1 : Well, this is where we basically disagree, Dorothy.
If we could continue the same level of LE capacity
PaulR42 : (6) But it gives them the capability to do so.
MegSaint : (6) Does Denning think we're all stupid?
Barlow1 : we presently have, I'd have no objection. But I
believe, for reasons I'm not sure we have the
RayDude : (6) yes
HotRodKart : (6) I cant believe she said that HELLOOOOOO any gray
matter
Barlow1 : bandwidth to discuss here, that we are talking about
RayDude : (6) She thinks that since she has a degree in crypto
that everyone else is stupid and shouldn't
MegSaint : (6) I'm feeling very patronized.
RayDude : (6) be allowed to think about crypto
Barlow1 : dramatically enhancing their abilities. For one
thing, we would greatly reduce the bureaucratic
MegSaint : (6) I came with something of an open mind. She isn't
helping her cause any. not with me, anyway.
Barlow1 : overhead involved in wiretap, which is what keeps it
under 900 cases nationwide at the present.
RayDude : (6) She's good with crypto, but a real idiot when it
comes to anything about the gov't.
RayDude : (6) Or maybe they just pay her well...
RPTime : And that will have to be the last word on the matter
for tonight...
DDenning : The overhead of a wiretap is more likely to increase,
not decrease.
RayDude : (6) booo!
COUNTMINDO : (6) oh c'mon
COUNTMINDO : (6) just getting fun
PhilipED : Not quite!
RPTime : Maybe not! ;-)
RPTime : THAT will be the final word!
RayDude : (6) Why didn't they throw my questions in!!! :-( I
had some real Denny-friers in there...
COUNTMINDO : (6) thpppppt!
Barlow1 : Well, let's get together and talk, Dorothy.
RayDude : (6) ;-)
RPTime : TIME thanks Dr. Dorothy Denning and John Perry Barlow
for being with us tonight...
RayDude : (6) Oooh, he's asking her out!!! Maybe he'll ditch
her at the curb..
MegSaint : (6) Myabe they decided to shut her up before she did
more damange to the adminstraion position
RPTime : along with Philip Elmer-DeWitt. Thank you all, and
goodnight!
RayDude : (6) heheh
PhilipED : Thank you both. This was very interesting.
RayDude : (6) Oh quit thanking
DDenning : Thank you for the opportunity to be here!
COUNTMINDO : (6) butt kisser
PaulR42 : (6) Well, it's been nice, bye all! And write your
congressperson about Clipper!
RayDude : (6) each other and give some real issues a thought!
MegSaint : (6) Good Night, all. It was fun sitting with you.
PaulR42 : (6) Bye JPB, say hi to Jerry for me!
RayDude : (6) Well folks, see you whenever... it was fun. :-)
RayDude : (6) Hope some of you will join the cypherpunks if you
can stand to read that much email a day...
COUNTMINDO : (6) futureculture is enough for me thanks
MegSaint : (6) Already on a list that nets me 60 letters a day.
Don't know if I can afford the airtime
DDenning : spelling errors?
MegSaint : (6) What?
RayDude : (6) Well at least do me a favor and give out PGP to
all the folks you know who have PC's or Macs..
COUNTMINDO : (6) huh?
RayDude : (6) huh???
RayDude : (6) looks like Denny slipped...
MegSaint : (6) Will spread the gospel, at least as far as Kyrahn
HotRodKart : (6) PGP?
RayDude : (6) Pretty Good Privacy. Excellent crypto program...
RayDude : (6) Let me know if you want a copy... Mac or PC...
HotRodKart : (6) Thank you
HotRodKart : (6) where do you get it?
COUNTMINDO : (6) guess this is really over, i was hoping JPB would
keep going
RayDude : (6) I get off the internet... but... I guess AOL
doesn't give access to that... I can mail it to you
HotRodKart : (6) PC
RayDude : (6) Actually Barlow hit Denning before on the
internet.. that's how this got started...
Barlow1 : it be too long?
RayDude : (6) Hot: where do you live? If you're in NYC, I can
just give you a disk...
MegSaint : (6) Well, I really should go this time...(What do you
suppose they're doing, still in there?
HotRodKart : (6) San Diego
COUNTMINDO : (6) it be too long hehehehe that's what she said
RayDude : (6) Oh well. :-) Want me to mail you a disk or
upload it? (It'd be way too long an upload..)
HotRodKart : (6) Mail wood b ok
RayDude : (6) okay, send me your address in email...
HotRodKart : (6) To RayDude?
RayDude : (6) Yep... to RayDude...
HotRodKart : (6) I think I know how to use it I'll give it my best
shot
RayDude : (6) Just go up to the Mail menu and hit Compose Mail,
then type in RayDude in the "To:" field.
COUNTMINDO : (6) well, gone, seeya, nice talking...
HotRodKart : (6) got it thanks
RayDude : (6) Welp, I guess, that's it for tonight.. :-)
Goodnight folks.
RayDude : (6) Last words: "Die Clipper, Die, Die Die!! Die
Digital Telephony Act, Die, Die, Die!!!"
