December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

MAIL and Coming Police State
by Karl Lui Barrus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > First, we would need a IP connection, preferably one that is from a > rather free, or non-questioning source [...deleted] A connection > that would bewilling to stand up to some pressure from authorities > is desirable Yeah, what you need is to run your own site, or have the explicit permission to run a remailer from whoever owns the site. For example, here on owlnet, the user policy forbids forwarding mail to a non-standard program. I mention this because I have asked and been told repeatedly by an attorney friend of mine that running a remailer on a system where you don't have authorization to do so is a violation of the ECPA. (i.e. access beyond what the system administration intends for you to have). So you definitely need sysadmin approval to withstand even the slightest pressure. So maybe I'm glad all the remailers I set up have expired ;-) As far as other properties, I've tried digital cash and time delay: One remailer I ran used digital cash (a very simple system), another batched mail and sent out once a day. I didn't keep logs so I don't know how popular these two remailers were, but I have a feeling not very popular at all. I also tried num-latency delays, but the remailer which did this wasn't able to run for very long, so I couldn't tell if it was a popular feature or not. Good luck! Karl Barrus <klbarrus(a)owlnet.rice.edu> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLX9tIYOA7OpLWtYzAQHpvgP5AclUZUtUmJxlrC+D8XA7d2nbCDKAm3os 1gDVIBFn/KsFk2RrbFdPdhoip1Dj2AUEVk3Zfm3bqkqly5uu3PKwALz0dYZjTDhx C+hdemVNAs1ErwPS9oPKuPA82RSKfM3NqEXejR06oKwRcSO0QNkq1TFTTe8wBpSe zvxtNlYokbM= =qv05 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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anonymous credit?
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'm wondering is anonymous electronic credit is possible. At first, it seemed to me to be an unlikely thing. Banks and credit companies usually want to determine if a person is a good risk, before extending them credit. If a person has a bad credit history, they have a hard time getting credit cards and loans. How could a bank determine your credit history if they don't know who you are? Assuming you did get a credit card using an anonymous id, if you abused your credit and lost the use of the credt card, you could just re-apply under a different anonymous id. There would be no continous credit history under a single identity. After thinking about this a little is now seems to me that anonymous credit is possible, but it wouldn't work like current credit cards. A few assumptions... 1) there will be more people who pay their bills than people who don't pay their bills. 2) some people will pay their bills late and be subject to fees and interest. 3) there will always be some people who try to cheat the system by getting an anonymous credit line, spending it, then disappearing. Given these assumptions, I can see anonymous electronic credit working as follows: Anyone can get an anonymous credit line. You purchase an anonymous credit line by forking over some anonymous digital cash up front. The more you fork over, the higher the initial credit line. In return for the upfront cash, you get an anonymous credit id and an credit line to accompany it. Your initial credit line will be equal to the amount of your upfront money, perhaps minus a startup fee. You can increase you credit line by paying your bills on time, thus establishing a mini-credit history with that credit company. The *rate* of increase is the important factor, which I'll get back to later. Instead of working like current credit cards, which give the credit companies a detailed record of what you purchased, where you purchased, and when, anonymous credit will work more like a generic loan. To tap your credit line, you will use your anonymous credit id to make withdraws, converting a portion of your credit line into anonymous cash using a Chaum-ian anonymous cash withdraw protocol. You can then spend the anonymous cash anywhere you like, without revealing the details of your spending habbits to the credit company. The credit company would only by able to track your withdraws and your repayments. The credit company might charge a service fee for each withdraw. They would most likely charge interest, fees for late payment, and perhaps also a yearly fee. Basically, it works much like an anonymous bank account, except you can establish a good repayment history and increase your credit line. The rate at which the credit company increases your credit line will depend upon the credit company's assement of the risks invovled in carrying anonymous credit lines. The credit company knows that you can simply disappear at any time, therefore it won't want to increase your credit line too fast. However, the higher your credit line, the more interest it can earn. Also, competition between different credit companies will affect the rate of increase. If most people repay their credit lines, the credit company will make money. If credit lines don't grow too large, too fast, the credit company will not lose too much money from cheaters. The credit company should be able to determine a rate of increase that will make them a profit. Does any of this sound reasonable? Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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Mac SecureDrive status report...
by rarachel＠edison.poly.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Okay, so far I have all the information I need. The secure drive for the Mac will require the user to have a fairly optimized drive to start off with. Why? Because I've wasted way too much time trying to figure out how to work with the damn extents... I don't have any driver code written yet. The reason for this is that I'm not ready to risk loosing my hard drive until I have two full backups. :-) This is a two part project as you know. The 1st project is a freeware encryption only driver... The 2nd part is an encryption/compression driver. I've written most of the routines for the 2nd project to do the free/full space management and caches. Once I write the freeware program I will have a working driver (I hope) and will be able to implement the compressing driver. I do plan to make some money off of this and give Stacker, X2 and E-disk a bit of competition, so I figure somewhere around the $30-$50 range for the compressing/encrypting driver... I'm going to make the compressing driver have a possibly self-optimizing when idle routine, but I may decide to drop this if it takes too long... Let me know if you have any suggestions/etc. NOTE: DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE!!! Send your replies to rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu. The reason for this is that there's some trouble with Photon right now, and I am using another machine to get my mail :-I Hopefully this will be fixed soon...

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Who Owns the Words?
by Arthur Chandler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I realize that a thread similar to this one was debated on this list a month or so ago; but the problem has special urgency for me right now, and so I've made the posited situation much more specific. I'd be much obliged if anyone would post or email me their feelings, or references to legal precedents, on this issue. Many thanks. A dilemma: if you are writing a paper, and you want to quote someone's posted (say, to cypherpunks) remarks, what are the obligations? 1) None: by posting, people make their words public domain. 2) No legal obligations, but it would be polite to ask permission. 3) Whatever is posted is de facto copyright, and the person whose words you took could sue you for breach of copyright. Now let's shift to a MOO or IRC: You keep a log of a conversation. Would the same rules/customs apply if you wanted to include that log in a paper? Does it matter if the conversation was held in a private room or in a public place on the MOO? Does it matter whether the paper is written to fulfill a class assignment or is intended for publication in a for-profit magazine?

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Re: money...
by jim＠Tadpole.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I posted this several months ago. BTW, I just noticed my first $10. I really doubt they can detect the money from a distance. If you're really carefull, you can pull the little strip out. Jim.

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Delays & random message order?
by rperkins-remailer＠nyx.cs.du.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is it just me or is toad.com delaying messages and sending them out in random order? For example, I noticed one post dated 18:00 EST got here at 19:30 EST. The next post, however, was timestamped just before noon (with a received header confirming it was actually received by toad.com at 11:52 PST)... Two posts later there is one from 10:30 PST... My last post took nearly 10 hours to appear on the list, while other posts are getting thru almost immediately. I hope Eric hasn't been experimenting with his no-PGP-sig=delay software; it seems to be stuck in a time-warp... Now if we could only get our anonymous remailers to send messages in this fashion we'd give the NSA a real headache trying to track the messages. :) Sorry to nit-pick...(I'm sure Eric has had enough problems with the list and doesn't need any more) but I thought I was going crazy when I started seeing responses to posts that hadn't been made yet (the person had emailed the message to someone, CC: cypherpunks and the response appeared on the list before the original!)

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Re: money...
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Seems nonsensical. Detectors of money containing trace amounts of magnetized metals would have real trouble with other magnetized metal going by, and they're not going to stop people at airports to *If* this were true (which I strongly doubt at the 99% confidence level), it would work not with metal detection but with detection of a tuned circuit which would oscillate at a harmonic if you broadcast a certain frequency at it. There are several patents for such circuits - they're used in little strips that are slid down the spine of library books for instance. It could only ever be a gross detection measure - I guess it could be made to catch sums considerably over the 10,000$ cash limit quite effectively. But the fact is, people can strip a bill down and *look* at these things for themselves. I seriously doubt any such technology would remain invisible to some lab hack who in an idle moment put it under his SEM for a quick peek. (*any* school that fabs its own ICs could do it trivially in seconds.) G

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Surveillance cameras
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"T.A.Z." <an57322(a)anon.penet.fi> wrote: :Routine implants of transponder devices into humans are not a question of :if, but only of when. I predict that they will become routine before the and wrote, and wrote, and wrote... Marc, when I said "And when you get a new account, remember to post to penet.fi instead of the list directly." I didn't mean for you to take it to heart quite so strongly and post the same thing four times! G PS London has the same degree of camera surveillance as you said Germany has. There's a big centre at Kings Cross Station where all the Railway Police have their monitors (of all the Underground entrances) and another one at New Scotland Yard where all the transport police have theirs. The ones in the underground - which are ostensibly just for mass crowd volume monitoring - have an absolutely deadly killer zoom lens that's centrally steerable. It's *way* overkill for the use it's supposed to be for...

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Re: Clipper: Denning v Barlow Debate
by rarachel＠prism.poly.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> K00L, RayDewd! Like, I'm glad dewdz like you can , like, _follow_ this > stuff. Maybe you can translate it into ordinary prose for old farts > like me, who favore multi-sentence paragraphs and even reasonably > thorough explications of ideas that don't fit into a single line of > repartee! Not quite as you think. You see, only the posts with (6) in front of them were visible to those in the 6th row. :-) The AOL Time Odeon auditorium is broken up into the stage (everyone sees what gets posted from there, but only those on the stage can send messages to the stage.) >From there on everyone is assigned a row. In my case it was the 6th row. There were 85 people listening to the confrence, probably also generating as much noise as the folks in my row.. However neither Denning nor Barlow can see the conversations in row 6. Neither can the folks in row 50, or 95, or 69 or 666 see what's talked in row six unless they move to row six. :-) Weird, but true. AOL does provide the ability to send questions and comments to those in power on the stage. I sent quite a few flamatory messages down Dennings way of course, however, no comment/question of mine made it. :-) Ah, censorship at its best... (My questions were in the lines of, Dr. Denning, how can someone of your intelligence possibly support the idea of giving full control of everyone's privacy over to the government we all know to be quite corrupt, and the old, why should we pay $10Billion in taxes a year to help the feds catch 10 or so cases a year via wire tapping...) > No insult to Arsen Ray is meant, and there may even be some nuggets in > there I missed. But it sure does reinforce my hatred for "IRC" and > similar fora for the attention-challenged. From what I could see > scrolling by from Ms. Denning, she wasn't getting into the "dewd > repartee" either, showing that we have at least one thing in common. She didn't see any of it, except for the flame questions I sent, and quite possibly a huge ammount of others in the audience. THere were 85 or so folks there... > Repartee has its place, and we all do it. But the format here is not > conducive to getting views exchanged and coherent thoughts developed. > What a waste. Ineed, too bad she couldn't see the comments. Too bad I wasn't on stage with JPB to grill her to a nice shade of dark brown toast.. > Me, I'm not as polite as Ms. Denning. About one minute into this I > woulda said "Fuck this shit, I'm outta here!" Well, I had my fun. :-) I'll post up a clean *official* transcript of this session when one becomes available...

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Clipper: Denning v Barlow Debate on AOL
by rarachel＠photon.poly.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This is a captured chat from the Time Magazine, Time Odeon Online Forums. On America Online, my handle is RayDude. I unfortunately didn't get into the confrence in time to catch its begining. However as there's a transcript of every such confrence, I'll post that up as well. As I just go this immediatly after the confrence, there's no *OFFICAL* transcript posted online, however when one becomes available, I will send it here... (In the AOL "audience" you can only chat with those in your own row. All messages preceded by (6) are by those in my row. This is kind of messy, but you can still follow all the simultaneous discussions with a bit of effort.) You can send me internet mail at rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu if you wish, or RayDude(a)aol.com, however I prefer the photon machine. Barlow1 : improved traffic analysis. Content is less important than context, and most agents will Barlow1 : support this. Shuddup : (6) I really don't accept the traffic analysis argument. That's too much work! COUNTMINDO : (6) i just don't like having a product forced on me, we don't all have to buy FORD's if we want to COUNTMINDO : (6) deal with the government RPTime : Another question from the audience. JCMaille asks... Barlow1 : By the way, I'm not seeing my responses. Am I still online? Question : Does the government have a constitutional right of access to my personal communications? RPTime : Yes, John you are! RayDude : (6) RE: Traffic analysis: bet on it. It can be done and very easily over the internet as is. Kyrahn : (6) or as if gun controll has taken semi automatic guns and or automatics RayDude : (6) It will be much easier when the cable companies give you a net-feed. RPTime : Dr. Denning, why don't you go first? Barlow1 : hello? Shuddup : (6) But why bother with TA? Cost high, payoff low. Most of us are not evil! MegSaint : (6) Shuddup, since when has inefficency ever stopped the governmnt from doing something? Barlow1 : hello? DDenning : The Supreme Court ruled that wiretaps with a court order are Constitutional. Barlow1 : hello? DDenning : At one time, communications were not even protected under the RayDude : (6) To cite an example, my girlfriend went on vacation to HK. I'm not Chinese, but because I called HK, COUNTMINDO : (6) JPB is having troubles DDenning : 4th Amendment. The government could wiretap without a court order! Shuddup : (6) Right, but there;s almost always a reason - even if it is just to prove that we can... DDenning : Now a court order is required. RayDude : (6) AT&T sent me an offer to call HK for much less. This was half a year AFTER I called Hong Kong!!! Kyrahn : (6) crazy RayDude : (6) AT&T keeps track of EVERY call you make. If telephones have this much traffic analysis, PhilipED : To put the question another way, do citizens have a right to use powerful encryption? RayDude : (6) so will the info highway! Shuddup : (6) Sure, but again - why? DDenning : Right now there are no laws preventing the use of any encryption. Shuddup : (6) AT&T sells phone time. They have a reason. DDenning : Clipper is voluntary. You can still use something else. RPTime : We have to apologize. John Barlow has temporaily lost his connection... MegSaint : (6) I think we lost JPB! Shuddup : (6) BIG BROTHER! PARANOIA! RayDude : (6) No, they are REQUIRED to keep records by the FCC, another branch of the government. Kyrahn : (6) I've lost my mind :> Shuddup : (6) :-) PhilipED : Dr. Denning, in your opinion... COUNTMINDO : (6) they got him RayDude : (6) hehehe! PhilipED : would a law outlawing powerful encryption be unconstiotutional? Shuddup : (6) >:-( Kyrahn : (6) it's not paranoia when they really plan to do it Shuddup : (6) The problem is to figure out why. Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity! MegSaint : (6) Or beauracracy, which may be the same thing DDenning : I don't think so. But that doesn't mean it will happen. Shuddup : (6) Right.. COUNTMINDO : (6) they want to keep the status quo, but who's to say that that is right? PaulR42 : (6) Can Clipper break PGP2.3? RayDude : (6) Keep in mind that the NSA no longer have the Russians to spy on. So they need new targets. Us! RPTime : John Barlow is back with us. Sorry for the interruption! MegSaint : (6) Did she mean she doesn't think there will be a law or she doesn't think it will be unconst.? Shuddup : (6) Yeah, but why? What do we got? RayDude : (6) They need to be entertained, so they'll spy on everyone they can citing all sorts of rants PaulR42 : (6) Welcome back, John. COUNTMINDO : (6) hooray back from the beyond Shuddup : (6) ;-) PhilipED : Barlow, Denning just said she didn't think a law banning powerful encryption would be unconstitutional RayDude : (6) about "What if the drug dealers, terrorists, child molesters, and pornographers" get strong crypto? PhilipED : What do you say? Barlow1 : Hi folks. Don't know what happened. Gald to be back Kyrahn : (6) kinda like algebra let stupidity=Beauracracy PhilipED : Gald indeed! MegSaint : (6) Crooks already *have* strong crypto! RayDude : (6) Nope, as far as the cypherpunks can tell PGP is still strong. DES has been broken. Kyrahn : (6) multiply by x agencies PaulR42 : (6) Use the RSA scheme? Barlow1 : Actually, I believe that our current export embargoes are a violation of the 1st Amendment RayDude : (6) That's the point. Crooks already have strong crypto, but the rest of us wont if UncleSam gets his w RayDude : (6) way Barlow1 : which specifically speech without regard to the manner of speech. If we could restrict manner COUNTMINDO : (6) and the crowd began chanting CANTWELL CANTWELL CANTWELL Kyrahn : (6) I am Not a Crook Barlow1 : of speech, it would be constitutional to require that everyone speak English. Which of course it isn't MegSaint : (6) Cantwell? Explain please PaulR42 : (6) BTW, PGP is classified as munitions. RayDude : (6) Neither am I. But face it, the NSA doesn't want anyone to have strong crypto except themselves. PhilipED : John, can you make the case why ordinary law-abiding citizens need powerful encryption? Kyrahn : (6) so is any encryption program COUNTMINDO : (6) CANTWELL is the rep. who is trying to pass a bill to do away with the export law on encryption RayDude : (6) Yet, you can FTP PGP from Finland. You can import IDEA from outside the country too. Munitions indee COUNTMINDO : (6) classifying it as a munition Kyrahn : (6) importing is o.k. Barlow1 : Because it is in the nature of digitally networked communications to be quite visible. Everytime MegSaint : (6) Thanks, good informtation. Where have I been? Kyrahn : (6) just don't try to send it Barlow1 : we make any sort of transaction in a digital environment, we smear our fingerprints all over Barlow1 : Cyberspace. RayDude : (6) If you guys want, you can subscribe to the cypherpunks mailing list Kyrahn : (6) 'cause they can throw you in jail COUNTMINDO : (6) no thanks COUNTMINDO : (6) heavy traffic RayDude : (6) by sending a message to cypherpunks-requests(a)toad.com with subscribe in the subject and body. PaulR42 : (6) What's the address? Barlow1 : If we are to have any privacy in the future, we will need virtual "walls" made of cryptography. MegSaint : (6) RayDude, what's the address? RayDude : (6) Beware, that you'll get over 70 messages a day! Kyrahn : (6) black "ice" PaulR42 : (6) And the NSA on your tail. RayDude : (6) Do you guys know about "SecureDrive?" COUNTMINDO : (6) holy gibson batman Kyrahn : (6) nope Kyrahn : (6) flatman RPTime : Another audience question... Question : isn't like the gun argument? if guns are outlawed only criminals will have guns, well if Question : clipper is standardized, won't criminals be the ones NOT using it? RayDude : (6) SecureDrive is a DOS program that will give you an encrypted hard drive using the IDEA cypher. Very RayDude : (6) secure. RPTime : Dr. Denning? COUNTMINDO : (6) hey that's my question Kyrahn : (6) not grock dos MegSaint : (6) Wow! Kyrahn : (6) am on mac RayDude : (6) I sent about 6 questions so far.. haven't seen any yet.. must be slow.. Kyrahn : (6) patience DDenning : If Clipper becomes the de facto standard, then it will be the chief method RayDude : (6) Re: MAc Secure drive: no worries, I'm writing one for the Mac. Send me a message in two monts. MegSaint : (6) There are over a hundred people here Kyrahn : (6) cool RayDude : (6) two months... sorry PaulR42 : (6) Is it my imagination, but are the main participants fading out....? DDenning : of encryption. That would be what you'd get at Radio Shack. What criminals RayDude : (6) Cool, but very hard to write... Re: fading out, no, were just talking too fast. :-) DDenning : use will depend on what is readily available and what their cohorts are using. MegSaint : (6) Do we have better connections than the net heavies? COUNTMINDO : (6) such as PGP Kyrahn : (6) Raydude-> at AOL? RayDude : (6) As cypherpunks we are planning to give out free disks with crypto at the next PC Expo in NYC. If DDenning : Both parties of a conversation have to use the same thing. Criminals also talk to PaulR42 : (6) Cool, RayDude! RayDude : (6) any of you dudes are in NYC at the time, look us up. :-) (RayDude@aol, or rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu DDenning : a lot of people outside their immediate circle - e.g., to buy goods and services. Kyrahn : (6) cool DDenning : Also, they can be quite stupid at times. But the main thing is that criminals will Kyrahn : (6) you can reach me here on AOL COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks mbone conference, watch for it soon DDenning : not be able to take advantage of the SKIPJACK algorithm as a way of concealing DDenning : their conversations. This is the whole point. It is not to catch criminals. It is DDenning : to allow people access to a really high quality algorithm in a way that someone COUNTMINDO : (6) what bullshit! MegSaint : (6) Countmindo, "cypherpunks *mbone* conference? I don't get it. DDenning : cannot use it to conceal criminal activity. Kyrahn : (6) it gets deeper all the time Barlow1 : The gun analogy is excellent up to a point. I can't for the life of me imagine why we would think that PaulR42 : (6) Where's the shovel? COUNTMINDO : (6) cypherpunks are putting together an mbone conference, video and audio over the net Barlow1 : even a stupid criminal would use Clipper if something else were available. And when I talk MegSaint : (6) In other words, anyone not using Clipper will be, de facto, a crook. Barlow1 : to people in the administration their big hobgoblin is the *nuclear-armed" terrorist. Any fanatic Kyrahn : (6) that's it RayDude : (6) In other words, crypto except for clipper will be illegal! Barlow1 : smart enough to assemble and detonate a nuclear device is going to be smart enough to download COUNTMINDO : (6) yeah de-facto illegal Barlow1 : PGP from a bulletin board somewhere. RayDude : (6) I wish I had a sparc station to join the mbone conf.. hope one of you will have transcripts. Kyrahn : (6) red flags for anyone not using clipp you wings PaulR42 : (6) Right on, John! Barlow1 : Also, I'd like to point out that the gun analogy doesn't go the whole distance. Crypto is by its RayDude : (6) Fuck clipper, we have to spread PGP far and wide making it tough to outlaw it. COUNTMINDO : (6) cool he kicks dennings ass off my question!! Barlow1 : nature a purely *defensive* technology. You can't shoot people with it. RayDude : (6) Yeah! Barlow!!! Go, Go, Go!!!! PhilipED : Speaking of PGP, Dr. Denning, is that encryption system secure, in your opinion? COUNTMINDO : (6) ooo good one. PaulR42 : (6) Here it is... RayDude : (6) hahahah! RayDude : (6) Lets see if the NSA cracked PGP yet!! PaulR42 : (6) she'll sidestep it. COUNTMINDO : (6) that gets my bet DDenning : I don't know of anyone who's been able to break the IDEA algorithm that it uses. RayDude : (6) Time to pull a Ronnie Reagan, for Denning... Kyrahn : (6) they are working on it COUNTMINDO : (6) oh she said it!!! RayDude : (6) Bullshit! PGP uses RSA and IDEA! RPTime : Back to the audience for a question from Steve HW.. COUNTMINDO : (6) wake up the neighbors MegSaint : (6) Wait, I thought PGP was RSA PaulR42 : (6) What's the diff? Question : This is for Dr. Denning. What is the evidence of harm if the Clipper proposal is not Question : adopted? RayDude : (6) RSA uses public/private keys meaning you can publish your key and anyone can send you a 100% RayDude : (6) private message Kyrahn : (6) the trick is to have something that mutates when someone attemps to "illegally" break it PaulR42 : (6) And IDEA? DDenning : The harm would be to the government. They would not be able to use it and would RayDude : (6) With idea, you can't spread your key. It's the only thing that protects your code. Kyrahn : (6) call it BackFire DDenning : have to resort to something less secure. Also, Clipper is part of a larger COUNTMINDO : (6) awwww poor government RayDude : (6) IDEA uses only one password. PGP gives you a public & private. Your can only read your mail DDenning : project to make hardware available for encryption and digital signatures. This RayDude : (6) if you decrypt it with your private key when someone scrambles it with your public key. MegSaint : (6) So what was Denning talking about then? RayDude : (6) Hence anyone can send you 100% private mail without knowing your secret keyword. Kyrahn : (6) RipemMac use dual components DDenning : will be used, for example, in the Defense Message System. The goverment DDenning : needs a new standard. PaulR42 : (6) OK, I get it now. Kyrahn : (6) but is still under developement :< RayDude : (6) A bit of trivia, did you guys know that our contries founding fathers were crooks? COUNTMINDO : (6) then let the government use what they want and let us use what we want Kyrahn : (6) of course! DDenning : I personally believe that making really powerful encryption like SKIPJACK available RayDude : (6) Thats right, they were sumglers, trying to evade Englands taxes. Hence for the constitution COUNTMINDO : (6) god bless 'em ;) PaulR42 : (6) Explain, RayDude, that can't possibly be true. RayDude : (6) having lots of protections against abuse! DDenning : without key escrow could be harmful to society. Wiretaps have been essential Kyrahn : (6) same thing with most "city" Fathers RayDude : (6) Too bad they didn't put in privacy protection too. :-I Shuddup : (6) Right. Cops got search warrants, I got a door lock; cops make mistakes, but I'm worried about crooks PaulR42 : (6) So even Geo. Washington said "I am not a crook?" RayDude : (6) Their idea was to have a tiny government, only to serve, not to rule. Shuddup : (6) I just want to pick my own size and cost of doorlock! DDenning : for preventing and solving many serious crimes and terrorist activities. Barlow1 : Why on earth would the government have to use something else if they failed to get the rest of Kyrahn : (6) I am Not A Crook!! RayDude : (6) It's a matter of view point. To the Brits he was a crook & traitor. To us a hero. But the Barlow1 : rest of us to buy into this folly? COUNTMINDO : (6) but she said it wasn't to stop criminals RayDude : (6) smuggling was not a publicised thing. PaulR42 : (6) One man's revolutionary is another man's freedom fighter. Barlow1 : Hey, they are already using SKIPJACK. It's a government algorithm and has been in use for a Kyrahn : (6) besides the rest of the world will not use clipper Shuddup : (6) I think she DID say that clipper was to stop illegal wiretaps, or at least that it could. DDenning : CPSR and others are asking the government to drop Clipper. Barlow1 : long time. There are plenty other algorithms which we can use which are truly protected... unless of PaulR42 : (6) And it's a good thing too, Dorothy! Kyrahn : (6) so it stands to reason that the crooks you worry about will use some exotic Shuddup : (6) Right! RayDude : (6) BTW: Over the internet we have an 80% petition rate!!! 80% of the internet opposes clipper! Barlow1 : course, this is only the first step in a process which will outlaw other forms of crypto. And I Kyrahn : (6) and over 100 major companies COUNTMINDO : (6) i signed my electro petition Barlow1 : believe that it must be. Makes absolutely no sense otherwise. MegSaint : (6) I'll be sending in my petition soon. Just got the latest CPSR Alert with the address. RayDude : (6) I put my name on Satan's list, yeah baby I did.. :-) Barlow1 : EFF is not asking the Government to drop Clipper, though we would vastly prefer they did. We're PaulR42 : (6) But most Americans have no idea what the NSA is trying to do with Clipper. And is has such a nice na PaulR42 : (6) me Barlow1 : merely asking that no steps be taken to require it either by law or practice...as, for example, would RayDude : (6) That's why I'm going to give out free disks at PCExpo... If we can raise some Barlow1 : be the case if you had to use a Clipper chip to file your tax return. RayDude : (6) eyebrows from big businesses, we can raise everyone's eyebrows eventially PhilipED : Dr. Denning, do you think this is the "first step in a process to outlaw crypto"? RayDude : (6) eventually. (sorry) COUNTMINDO : (6) no, no way, yeah that's the ticket... DDenning : No I do not. The government has not been using SKIPJACK to my knowledge. Kyrahn : (6) well I got to go/ But keep in touch! DDenning : The Clipper initiative represents the first time that the government has put PaulR42 : (6) Can a MacPGP encrypted message be decyphered by a PC user, and vice versa? Is there PGP for PCs? Kyrahn : (6) :-> MegSaint : (6) Bye Kyrahn Shuddup : (6) bye COUNTMINDO : (6) bye PaulR42 : (6) See ya! RayDude : (6) Oh, DDenning has knowledge about what the gov has been using???? RayDude : (6) Bye K. DDenning : one of their really good algorithms out there in the unclassified arena. They COUNTMINDO : (6) bet your ass she does RayDude : (6) BTW: Which of you wanted the Mac or PC Secure drive? I can send'em to you? HotRodKart : (6) Being that this my first rodeo on the E/F I wonder if this damn thing really works? MegSaint : (6) Paul, I believe the answer to bothe or your questions is "Yes" DDenning : are trying to do this in a way that won't backfire against the public. Other PaulR42 : (6) Thanks, Meg MegSaint : (6) Ray, I would be interested in the Mac Secure Drive DDenning : NSA developed algorithms are not available for purchase by the public. Barlow1 : I appreciate their willingness to make some of that COUNTMINDO : (6) more audience questions, c'mon! Barlow1 : crypto research available to a public which has paid so much for it, but I'm afraid that I would RayDude : (6) I'm here on AOL.. Just send mail to RayDude. :-) MegSaint : (6) Heck, the government developed these algorithims with OUR money! Yes John! RayDude : (6) Or if you have internet access, it'll be faster to send me mail to rarachel(a)photon.poly.edu Barlow1 : never trust an algorithm which was given to me by any government. And I certainly don't trust PaulR42 : (6) Is Barlow1 JPB's aol address? MegSaint : (6) Will do, RayDude. Barlow1 : a classified algorithm like Skipjack, even without PaulR42 : (6) Right on John!!!! Barlow1 : a back door which everyone can see. I think I'll stick to systems which have been properly vetted MegSaint : (6) Barlow1 may be a temporary address. Barlow1 : to be clear of such compromises, like RSA. I hope others will do likewise and that RSA will become PaulR42 : (6) uh huh Barlow1 : the standard which Clipper shouldn't be. MegSaint : (6) I find it hard to believe that Denning hangs out on AOL RPTime : Time for one more question from our audience... Question : To John Barlow. Isn't society becoming increasingly vulnerable to concerted Question : criminal/terrorist disruption, requiring *stronger* law enforcement tools? RayDude : (6) Meg, gotcha in my address book... will send a copy when it's done. Want a beta, or want to wait? COUNTMINDO : (6) holy right winger, batman PaulR42 : (6) I wonder if Denning listens to the Dead? PaulR42 : (6) Dumb question, sorry COUNTMINDO : (6) naw, funny one MegSaint : (6) I'll take beta. What's life with out a little risk? Barlow1 : Gee. I don't know. It's a scary world. However, I'm willing to take my chances with the few terrorists COUNTMINDO : (6) life without risk = disneyland RayDude : (6) booooo.... stupid question! I've sent so many good ones, why take that one? MegSaint : (6) Some might consider Barlow a terrorist Barlow1 : and drug lords there are out there rather than trusting government with the kind of almost unlimited PaulR42 : (6) I'll bet she hasn't eaten as many shrooms at Dead concerts as JPB <g> RayDude : (6) disneyland=lawyers, lawsuits, cops, big-mickey-brother, etc... bad, bad bad! Barlow1 : surveillance power which Clipper and Digital Telephony would give them. It's a touch choice. But MegSaint : (6) So why did you send the stupid one, RayDude :) Barlow1 : when you look at the evil perpetrated by government over this century in the name of stopping crime, RayDude : (6) That wasn't mine Meg.. But I should have sent a stupid one.. them's the only ones accepted... RayDude : (6) it seems... Barlow1 : it far exceeds that done by other organized criminals. COUNTMINDO : (6) hey mine was accepted :( PhilipED : Dr. Denning, hasn't remote listening technology enhanced police abilities to eavesdrop to the point... RayDude : (6) Sorry :-) MegSaint : (6) Oops, misunderstood your comment. <just kidding, anyway> PhilipED : where the loss of a few wire taps won;t mean much? PaulR42 : (6) Hasn't Time Mag cooperated with the CIA and helped them obtain info in the sixties? Shuddup : (6) It wouldbe interesting to know how many questions where sent up! RayDude : (6) Sorry Count... didn't mean it like that... DDenning : No. They need to get the cooperation of the service providers to implement MegSaint : (6) Do they *have* to or are they just supposed to ? COUNTMINDO : (6) is this thing over at 10? HotRodKart : (6) TIME = LEFT RayDude : (6) More like cooperation of the service providers or the service providers will be fined $10K a day!!! DDenning : a wiretap. The loss of some wiretaps could be costly indeed. As an example, RayDude : (6) The FBI digital telephony bill requires that all networks have a spy line or they pay $10K a day! RayDude : (6) if the damn thing passes! DDenning : wiretaps were used to help solve a case that involved plans by a Chicago DDenning : gang from shooting down a commercial airliner. There have been 2 cases where COUNTMINDO : (6) Cub, White Sock, Bull? DDenning : they helped save the lives of kids who were going to be kidnaped for the making DDenning : of a snuff murder film. They helped solve a case where a man's house was going COUNTMINDO : (6) c'mon boss, who's going to use voice encryption anyways? RayDude : (6) Oh yeah, right, surrrre... good ones... PaulR42 : (6) Gag me, Dorothy. DDenning : to be bombed. I could go on. If we take John's arguments about law enforcement DDenning : to their logical conclusion, we'd just get rid of law enforcement. I think it's better RayDude : (6) Why should we as tax payers pay $10Billion a year for Clipper when only 10-15 wiretap warrants are DDenning : to have it. The people in law enforcement hate it as much as the rest of us when RayDude : (6) actually given out to law enforcement agents per year? RayDude : (6) Is $10Billion the cost of 10 or so wire taps a year???? I think not! DDenning : some member of the community does something wrong. And they correct it, RayDude : (6) It's only for spying on us! DDenning : design new procedures and laws where necessary, and go on. Barlow1 : Oh, please. I'm not proposing eliminating police. I'm opposing giving them unlimited powers. COUNTMINDO : (6) foreign countries will laugh at this Barlow1 : Also,these are the same cases cited over and over by everyone from you to Judge Freeh.Surely, we RayDude : (6) BTW: They plan on exporting clipper. What country would be stupid enough to use a chip that will le RayDude : (6) the USA spy on their private stuff? Barlow1 : aren't going to fundamentally change the balance of Barlow1 : power in this country because of these two (undocumented, to my knowledge) stories. RayDude : (6) BTW: there's talk that the recent espionage case is simply media fodder incited by the NSA so that COUNTMINDO : (6) guess it doesn't end at 10... RayDude : (6) they can say "Look, with encryption we wouldn't have been able to catch'em!" DDenning : Clipper is not going to change the balance of power. It does not give RayDude : (6) "So we need clipper and we need to ban all other encryption" RayDude : (6) Ohhh, yeah, clipper isn't going to change the balance... pure raw, grade A-bull$#it! DDenning : law enforcement any additional authority to do wiretaps. Barlow1 : Well, this is where we basically disagree, Dorothy. If we could continue the same level of LE capacity PaulR42 : (6) But it gives them the capability to do so. MegSaint : (6) Does Denning think we're all stupid? Barlow1 : we presently have, I'd have no objection. But I believe, for reasons I'm not sure we have the RayDude : (6) yes HotRodKart : (6) I cant believe she said that HELLOOOOOO any gray matter Barlow1 : bandwidth to discuss here, that we are talking about RayDude : (6) She thinks that since she has a degree in crypto that everyone else is stupid and shouldn't MegSaint : (6) I'm feeling very patronized. RayDude : (6) be allowed to think about crypto Barlow1 : dramatically enhancing their abilities. For one thing, we would greatly reduce the bureaucratic MegSaint : (6) I came with something of an open mind. She isn't helping her cause any. not with me, anyway. Barlow1 : overhead involved in wiretap, which is what keeps it under 900 cases nationwide at the present. RayDude : (6) She's good with crypto, but a real idiot when it comes to anything about the gov't. RayDude : (6) Or maybe they just pay her well... RPTime : And that will have to be the last word on the matter for tonight... DDenning : The overhead of a wiretap is more likely to increase, not decrease. RayDude : (6) booo! COUNTMINDO : (6) oh c'mon COUNTMINDO : (6) just getting fun PhilipED : Not quite! RPTime : Maybe not! ;-) RPTime : THAT will be the final word! RayDude : (6) Why didn't they throw my questions in!!! :-( I had some real Denny-friers in there... COUNTMINDO : (6) thpppppt! Barlow1 : Well, let's get together and talk, Dorothy. RayDude : (6) ;-) RPTime : TIME thanks Dr. Dorothy Denning and John Perry Barlow for being with us tonight... RayDude : (6) Oooh, he's asking her out!!! Maybe he'll ditch her at the curb.. MegSaint : (6) Myabe they decided to shut her up before she did more damange to the adminstraion position RPTime : along with Philip Elmer-DeWitt. Thank you all, and goodnight! RayDude : (6) heheh PhilipED : Thank you both. This was very interesting. RayDude : (6) Oh quit thanking DDenning : Thank you for the opportunity to be here! COUNTMINDO : (6) butt kisser PaulR42 : (6) Well, it's been nice, bye all! And write your congressperson about Clipper! RayDude : (6) each other and give some real issues a thought! MegSaint : (6) Good Night, all. It was fun sitting with you. PaulR42 : (6) Bye JPB, say hi to Jerry for me! RayDude : (6) Well folks, see you whenever... it was fun. :-) RayDude : (6) Hope some of you will join the cypherpunks if you can stand to read that much email a day... COUNTMINDO : (6) futureculture is enough for me thanks MegSaint : (6) Already on a list that nets me 60 letters a day. Don't know if I can afford the airtime DDenning : spelling errors? MegSaint : (6) What? RayDude : (6) Well at least do me a favor and give out PGP to all the folks you know who have PC's or Macs.. COUNTMINDO : (6) huh? RayDude : (6) huh??? RayDude : (6) looks like Denny slipped... MegSaint : (6) Will spread the gospel, at least as far as Kyrahn HotRodKart : (6) PGP? RayDude : (6) Pretty Good Privacy. Excellent crypto program... RayDude : (6) Let me know if you want a copy... Mac or PC... HotRodKart : (6) Thank you HotRodKart : (6) where do you get it? COUNTMINDO : (6) guess this is really over, i was hoping JPB would keep going RayDude : (6) I get off the internet... but... I guess AOL doesn't give access to that... I can mail it to you HotRodKart : (6) PC RayDude : (6) Actually Barlow hit Denning before on the internet.. that's how this got started... Barlow1 : it be too long? RayDude : (6) Hot: where do you live? If you're in NYC, I can just give you a disk... MegSaint : (6) Well, I really should go this time...(What do you suppose they're doing, still in there? HotRodKart : (6) San Diego COUNTMINDO : (6) it be too long hehehehe that's what she said RayDude : (6) Oh well. :-) Want me to mail you a disk or upload it? (It'd be way too long an upload..) HotRodKart : (6) Mail wood b ok RayDude : (6) okay, send me your address in email... HotRodKart : (6) To RayDude? RayDude : (6) Yep... to RayDude... HotRodKart : (6) I think I know how to use it I'll give it my best shot RayDude : (6) Just go up to the Mail menu and hit Compose Mail, then type in RayDude in the "To:" field. COUNTMINDO : (6) well, gone, seeya, nice talking... HotRodKart : (6) got it thanks RayDude : (6) Welp, I guess, that's it for tonight.. :-) Goodnight folks. RayDude : (6) Last words: "Die Clipper, Die, Die Die!! Die Digital Telephony Act, Die, Die, Die!!!"

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