December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Joe Farah 9/14 (Pppbbbttt)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Everybody's belief/morals are different. For instance I take that last paragraph of yours and laugh at it. To many americans doing so would not be immoral because many people don't believe in god. Your moral yardstick would be different from mine. People in the bible belt have different morals from those in las vegas. If I had religous right morals I'd kill myself. ---Richard.Bragg(a)ssa.co.uk wrote: > > >>Almost 60 percent of those polled said they thought Clinton was fit to be > >>president. By what standard? That's the trouble. Americans have no > >>standards -- no unchangeable yardsticks by which they measure right and > >>wrong, truth from fiction. > > >By *their* standard, by their own personal judgement. There's no moral > >yardstick, and God help us if there is in the future. Who makes the > >yardstick? Who sits down and says, "This is the moral standard in this > >country, abide by it or suffer the consequences"? > > Sorry but there are absolutes and there is a moral yardstick. Whether this > is accepted or not is beside the point. > > There has to be absolutes otherwise any action can be excused (or damned). > The real cry should be > "God help us to instigate Your yardstick". God doesn't change and neither > does His measure. > > 1)Love the Lord, with all your heart, with all you soul with all your mind > and all your strength > 2)Love you neibour as yourself. > > Everything else hangs on these. > > > == "The same thing we do every night Pinkey, try to take over the WORLD!" - The brain _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Democracy...
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The government can't make laws favoring one religion thereby restricting another religion. The urban legend that it was only meant to stop government from restricting a religion was a misquote from some misguided pastor. Separation of church and state is just that, that is what the country was founded on. This is also a thread for the lists and newsgroups that it was intended for. ---Jaeger <Jaeger(a)hempseed.com> wrote: > > well, the first amendment is what I expected to be used... > unfortunately, the phrase "...wall of separation between church and > state" is not taken from the first amendment. It is taken from a letter > written by Thomas Jefferson... and the meaning is not that church > shouldn't have an effect on the state. The state CAN support one > religion over another. In context, the phrase simply explains that the > government can't make laws that RESTRICT religious practice or doctrinal > issues. The state CAN make laws that encourage the practice of any one > particular religion, as long as the laws do not RESTRICT the PRACTICE of > other religions. Making people uncomfortable isn't a constitutional > reason to overturn a law. > > btw, notice the wording in the first amendment...it only restricts gov't > restrictions on religion. > > Jaeger > > > Gee, check out the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Also the > > first > > item in the Bill of Rights. "Congress shall make no law respecting the > > > > establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." > > > > (from memory, so don't bother me with minor wording corrections.) > > > > By standard convention, this is also referred to as "separation of > > church > > and state." > > > > As with the clueless AOLers yakking about an "Assimov" story they read > > a > > couple of years ago in the 5th grade, you bozos need to get educated > > and > > spend a minute or two thinking before writing. > > > > > > == "The same thing we do every night Pinkey, try to take over the WORLD!" - The brain _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 18:41:25 -0700 > Jim Choate wrote: > > The only objection to releasing an API is to > > stifle competition, *THAT* is a bad thing. > > There are a number of other reasons -- principally support and backwards > compatibility costs. If you release an API for a commercial application > for ISVs, you better make sure it is relatively bug-free and mature. As > soon as someone else's code relies on that API, you are stuck with > making sure it continues to work as the product evolves. This is bogus reasoning. If the API is released there is *more* motivation for the original distributor to keep backward compatibility and bug-free. If it isn't some pissed off set of programmers will write a replacement. Furthermore the motivation to keep future compatibility is also increased. You want quality code that is bullet-proof then release the API and let the fittest survive. If nothing else it's going to determine if your as bad-assed programmer as you think you are. > There is nothing wrong with public and private APIs, and we hope that > the ad hoc private APIs from some midnight-oil-burning-hack to get the > product to ship on time that have useful functionality will eventually > be integrated into a mature public API. If you release the API you'll find those midnight hacks go away, *not* increase as you seem to be claiming. The history of quality over time of the Open Software producers amply proves this. Solaris, HP, BSD, NT, etc. *wish* they were as stable and popular as Linux. > Modular OOP design means you have lots of interfaces, you don't > necessarily want people to be able to dig in-between all the pieces of > your program -- often you cannot protect application/data integrity if > they do. Malarky. If you're data structures are that fragile then you need to go back to the drawing board. > > Had Microsoft, for example, been required to publish their > > API's by the market we wouldn't be spending all this effort > > You state free-market and then you are *requiring* someone to do > something? How do you resolve that contradiction? Require = Force != > Free[dom] Free-market *requires* fair competition, don't blame that requirement on me I had nothing to do with it. Free-market does not mean carte blanche as to what manufacturers can do, it means there are no outside regulations applied. It says *nothing* about internal regulation applied by either the producer or the consumer. If you are seriously saying that the only workable market scheme is to let people cheat and steal from others (which is what poorly written and unreliable code does) then you need to quit typing and starting thinking. > As far as *commercial* software vendors go, Microsoft is one of the > better companies for publishing APIs and creating useful APIs and tools Malarky. Microsoft has so many hidden, undocumented, incomplete API's it isn't even funny. > for Rapid Application Development. Do you subscribe to MSDN? Please do > before you crucify Microsoft for lack of APIs, if anything they have too > many. Subscribe to the MSDN? I work for Tivoli in Austin as a Senior Software Verification Engineer. I spend about 8-10 hours a day banging on software running on: SunOS 4.x Solaris 2.x HP/UX 9.x HP/UX 10.x AIX 3.x AIX 4.x WinNT 4.0 WinNT 3.51 W4W W3.11 OS/2 3.x OS/2 4.x AS/400 Novell 3.x Novell 4.x IRIX 4.x IRIX 5.x DG Unix Digital Unix NextStep networked via, TCP/IP IPX SNA Token Ring databases we support, Oracle Sybase Informix DB2 DBMX I've also worked on: Pick Linux (since 0.42) QNX SCO Interactive BSD CP/M C64 AmigaDOS 4DOS It requires that I comprehend and write shell scripts, Perl, C, C++, REXX, 4TEST, CORBA IDL on these platforms. I started analog and digital electronics in 1969, I started programming in BASIC/8 on a PDP 8/e in 1973. I built my first 6800 based machines from the ground up in 1974 when I was a freshman in high school. I've been employed in a hardware or software position since 1978 when I graduated high school. I've owned more different types of machines than I care to remember. I've worked in a science museum building 40 exhibits over 7 years (2 of which are in the Smithsonian, 1 is at the Exploratorium and 1 is at the Chicago Museum of Science and Technology, and I worked on the IBM Leonardo exhibit.) and had the pleasure of running their computer group for 5 of those years. I taught astronomy at the museum for 3 years and explained exhibits to the visitors for 7 years. I've been using MS Dos and Windows since the 1.0 days. I worked for the DoD building non-Von Neumann computers (RTL architecture). I hold a NASA certification (expired) for space rated soldering and mechanical assembly. I used to work on cesium beam atomic clocks and LORAN-C equipment. I run my own custom development business since 1984, and it's been on the internet since 1994 via ISDN. I've been running a BBS of some sort since '76 and had one continously online since '83. I helped develop TurBoard the first NAPLPS bbs software. I program in assembly on PDP/VAX 11, 6800, 6502, 8080, z80, 68k, 80x86, Sparc RISC, both types of POWER chips, & 8051. My current assignment is to build an automated software test engine that will test *all* the above OS'es with all the Tivoli products (are you familiar with Tivoli?), with all the point-patches, maintenance releases, and service packs installed in a user defined combinatorial environment. Microsoft's API's suck rocks. What do you do for a living? ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:14:50 -0400 > From: Adam Shostack <adam(a)homeport.org> > Subject: Re: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > On Mon, Sep 28, 1998 at 07:09:51PM -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > | > | The problem with your interpretation is that in a sense you want your cake and > | eat it too. In short you want to be able to use somebody elses code in your > | product without their having a say in how their code is used or receiving a > | cut of the profits. The GPL/LGPL is specificaly designed to prevent this. > > > I'll suggest that in a security context, having ones cake and > eating it too may not be such a bad thing. Only if you're the author or publisher and your goal is to watch your bank account grow to exclusion of all else, everybody else gets screwed. > If I can develop a > commercial product with crypto code thats been made available to the > community, then there is a lower chance the code will contain bogosity > in its security critical functions. > > The GPL (not the LGPL) specifically prevents this with the > best of intentions. Prevents what, releasing commercial code within a L/GPL'ed context? No, it doesn't. What it does do is *guarantee* that the customer has some chance of understanding what his code does (it's called code review and is highly regarded in crypto algorithm analysis circles) and makes sure the original L/GPL'ed holder has a stake in any commercial ventures the *source* code is used in. I'd say that's a win-win for everyone except those who want something for nothing so they can buy a new expensive do-dad. I'll say it again, neither the GPL or the LGPL prevent fully commercial code development. *HOWEVER* to do that within the context *requires* that the API to your commercial applications be released and available. This is a good thing. The only objection to releasing an API is to stifle competition, *THAT* is a bad thing. The idea from a free-market perspective: The idea is that while the actual source code is protectable the API is not so that *fair* competition can be ensured. The whole free-market theory must exist in a fairly competitive market. In the context of software that means full and open API's so that alternate but compatible libraries can exist and the consumer (not the manufacturer, the hallmark of a competitively impoverished market) can decide which is the most reliable and stable version. Had Microsoft, for example, been required to publish their API's by the market we wouldn't be spending all this effort and money on the current proceedings. That would be a win-win for everyone (well except Bill who probably wouldn't be worth a value equivalent to the holdings of 40+M US citizens combined). Anyone who objects to published API's is aware their code is trivial and not worth it's price or their code is written poorly and easily improved upon. Bottem line, if you believe in a free-market (which requires fair competition to work and prevent monopolies) and object to releasing your API's then you're a hypocrit. Having your cake and eating it too *never* works, except in Wonderland. There should be no objection to making oneself wealthy, but not at the expense of others. Let the quality of your product define your reputation, not your greed. Become the best supplier of niche code there is because the code is well fast, failure tolerant, and reliable - not because you've managed to squeeze all potential competitors out. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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GOLD IN BOLIVIA
by bluesky17＠mailexcite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

INTRODUCTION SUN RIVER MINING, INC. offers investors an incredible ground-floor investment opportunity in a company that is slated to begin producing gold during 1999 at a cash cost of less than US$100 per ounce! Sun River Mining went public in September and trades on the NASDAQ OTC electronic bulletin board under the symbol "SUNR". Sun River Mining is tightly-held (insiders hold 7.8 million shares), has a limited float (approximately 1.5 million shares) and is not very widely known. The Company's primary business is the acquisition, exploration and development of placer gold projects in Bolivia, with the goal of becoming Bolivia's largest and lowest-cost alluvial gold producer. The management team has over 60 years of placer mining experience. THE COMPANY Sun River Mining, through its Bolivian subsidiary, North Bolivian Investment S.A. has entered into a Letter of Understanding Agreement with Aluvion S.A. and its shareholders to acquire up to an 81% equity interest in Aluvion, which is a Bolivian company holding mineral concessions in the Tipuani River basin. Aluvion management has extensive dredging experience in alluvial / placer gold prospects and owns hydraulic excavation equipment. The Company has obtained a report on the Tipuani River prospects of Aluvion from the respected mining and engineering firm in Denver, Colorado of Watts, Griffis & McOuat, Limited ("WGM"). The Report concluded that "there are indeed significant volumes of unmined uriferous gravels to justify interest in establishing commercial operations based on these deposits." WGM recommended additional drilling of prospects for evaluation purposes, and that negotiations to reduce royalty interests in the concessions begin. The company is currently seeking funding sources and / or oint venture partners to provide capital for the pursuit of the Aluvion S.A.opportunities. The Letter of Understanding Agreement requires aggregate payments of $7,189,000 to complete a 74.324% equity interest acquisition of Aluvion, of which over $400,00 has been advanced to Aluvion with $5.57 million due January 31, 1999 and a further $1.2 million to be paid out of production. Further, $2.5 million additional paid in capital would increase SUNR's equity interest in Aluvion to 81%. There are on-going negotiations with several financing sources; however, the Company has not received a binding commitment for such funds at this time, nor are there guarantees or assurances that such a financing can be arranged on terms acceptable to Sun River Mining. Sun River Mining's Denver-area location allows it to tap into a wealth of local technical, financial and operational expertise. Other Colorado-based firms with major property positions as well as operating and developing mines in Bolivia include: Orvana Resources (developing the Don Mario and Pederson gold projects), Granges, Inc. (undertaking feasibility studies on the Capa Circa and Amayapampa deposits), and Golden Eagle International. MANAGEMENT Among operating companies, a key component of success is the experience of the management team. If Sun River Mining acquires Aluvion S.A., it will have the benefit of Gaston Fernandez (currently the President of Aluvion) who has 45 years of mining experience, mostly in dredging operations in South America. Mr. Fernandez was Chief Engineer on the Kaka River dredge operated by South America Placers, Inc. from 1957 - 1965, using the same dredge that Sun River Mining / Aluvion intends to acquire, refurbish and use on the Tipuani & Kaka River projects. His son, Marcelo Fernandez, is a mining engineer with over 20 years of placer mining experience (a graduate of the Colorado School of Mines), who is employed by Aluvion as technical and operations manager for the Lower Tipuani and Kaka River gold projects. THE PROSPECTS Lower Tipuani. The Lower Tipuani prospects cover approximately 8 km along the Tipuani River between the towns of Guanay and Tipuani. Guanay is located 105 kilometers north of LaPaz, Bolivia, and is connected with LaPaz by a 230-km paved, gravel and dirt road (a new paved road is under construction). In the Lower Tipuani area, the river is 30 to 60 meters wide and up to 10 meters deep. All of the necessary infrastructure is in place, including a 100-man base camp, access roads and high voltage hydroelectric power lines. An environmental impact study has been completed and approved by the Bolivian government. The one remaining permit necessary to begin construction, the "environmental operating license", takes about 60 days to receive (Aluvion needs to provide Bolivian government with information on the equipment to be used and a schedule for the exploitation phase). Planned mining operations would involve dredging, washing and filtering river gravels to recover free particles of gold and produce dore bars (> 95% Au). With no chemical processes involved, mining and processing operations do not pose the risk of introducing into the environment the chemicals used to recover gold by many other mining projects. The Lower Tipuani alluvials would be mined out over a four-year span (1999 - 2002). During this period, Aluvion projects recovering over 257,000 ounces of gold, or an average of 64,300 ounces per year. Cash operating costs are estimated at US$93 per ounce (these projections have been reviewed by Watts, Griffis & McOuat). Kaka River. Subject to financing, operations are currently projected to begin in the year 2000; gravel deposits, if economically producable, could last for an estimated minimum 20 year mine life (this prospect is not subject to seasonal shutdowns during the rainy season). Sun River Mining / Rio Del Sol have entered into a letter of intent with Central Cooperative Teoponte, which represents nine local cooperatives operating along the Kaka River. Subject to funding and performance requirements, the Kaka River properties are expected to be acquired in return for a production royalty (no cash / shares / debt). NEW LISTING ("SUNR" on OTC:BB) GOLD PRODUCTION PROJECTED TO BEGIN IN 1999 PROJECTED ANNUAL PRODUCTION OF > 150,000 oz/yr @ US$96/oz FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT: SUN RIVER MINING, INC. Suite 201 5353 Manhattan Circle Boulder, Colorado 80303 USA Phone: (303) 543 - 8434 WATTS, GRIFFIS & McOUAT REPORT NOTE: For those on the internet who do not want to recieve exciting messages such as this..... * To be removed from our mailing list, call us direct @ 702-257-8547 ext 143 for removal. *We strive to comply with all state and federal laws and to send ads only to interested parties. *This ad is not intended for nor do we knowingly send to Washington State residents. * OR CLICK_HERE_TO_GOTO_REMOVE-LIST.COM (http://remove-list.com) Remove-List is a free public service offering to help the general public get removed from commercial mailings lists and has not sent this message. If you want their help please add your name to their list and we you will not receive a commercial email from us or any other member bulk emailer. * Responding to the "return address" will NOT have your name removed.

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Army Plonks (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:30:38 -0400 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Army Plonks > Now that the terrified US Army has axed its Web sites, and > NSA and several other mil sites seem inaccessible and > "temporarily unavailable" this morning, could this portend > a dual-use of the Internet, a closed one for porkbarrell mil and > secret gov sweethearts and a sappy infotainment one for civilians > to gameboy infofoolery? > > That would be a tri-power-gov implementation of dual-use > terror-scare to hide perkbellied privileges of natsec obsession. It's called milnet and it's been in existance ever since about '83. It occured when ARPA became DARPA. I was working on a DoD project at UT Austin at the time. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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complex mathematical formulae
by bill payne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I hope http://www.jya.com/itl-news.htm enjoys black and white. "complex mathematical formulae" aka pseduomathematics Then, in late 1942, the Royal Navy switched codes to the one-time pad system. The Nazi tap was lost forever because the pad system is unbreakable in both theory as well as practice. U-boats could no longer ambush helpless ships like wolves on sheep. Convoy after convoy arrived safe and intact, protected in the armor of an unbreakable code system. The U-boats had to change tactics. http://www.us.net/softwar/ Germany used the enigma algorithm and machine. Japan used the purple algorithm. And look what happened to them! I hope all of this helps Charles R Smith's business. http://www.softwar.net/plight.html Title: Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms Jump to Forum Click Image to Jump to Next Article Go to Text Only Print Version Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms by William H. Payne This article requires special formatting. Please Click Here to Read Send This Article to a Friend: Your Name: Email Address of your Friend: Your Email address: Back to Home Page Quick Menu Visit the Button Shop Interactive Forum Black and White Test of Cryptographic Algorithms E-mail the Editor

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Re: Meriweather v. Gates
by Information Security 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Reply-To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > > It's an ironic indication of where we are that Bill Gates is being hounded > by the Justice Department, Sun Microsystems, Netscape, Novell, and Ralph > Nader while no one is hounding John Meriwether. In fact, the Federal > Reserve System, nominally nongovernmental (wink wink) just helped to bail > out his firm, Long-Term Capital Management. > > Gates, you see, has a non-leveraged investment of $50 billion in Microsoft. > No borrowing, no margin debt, just plain old-fashioned ownership. And a monopoly that doesn't need a bailout. > Meriwether, on the other hand, started in 1991 and took in money from > speculators. He took the $2.2 billion and borrowed with it, hitting the > $125 B in borrowed assets point. Then he and his rocket scientists > essentially borrowed still more, using this $125 B to leverage $1.25 T. (T > for "trillion.") > > Not bad, going from $2.2 B to $1.25 T, a mere 500-fold increase. Sheer unmitigated greed on the part of the banks, not knowing or forcing Meriwether to tell them. Over leveraging is what caused the Great Depression via the stock market collapse. ---guy Gosh, thank goodness they are loosening the bank/brokerage rules...not.

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Horde this Book: the first Y2K action novel
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:01:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: politech(a)vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Horde this Book: the first Y2K action novel http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,2326,201980929-14649,00.html TIME Digital's Netly News September 29, 1998 Horde This Book By Declan McCullagh (declan(a)well.com) Book Review America's computers crashed on January 1, 2000. Cars won't start, planes won't fly, and the military is in shambles. Soldiers of unknown origin have seized control of a key high-tech company. China is about to invade. The one man who can save Western civilization from a Digital Dark Age is Y2K fixmeister Mark Solvang. Mark's problem? Well, it happens to be his company those troops took over. What comes next is a predictable romp through gun battles, hacking, and government intrigue that's sure to satisfy Chuck Norris fans but leave anyone else hoping for more. [...remainder snipped...]

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Re: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:33:38 -0400 > From: Adam Shostack <adam(a)homeport.org> > Subject: Re: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > What did I say about not paying for people's work? I'm perfectly > happy to pay for code, and I prefer to buy open source code; it tends > to be higher quality. I don't want to have to accept your opinion on > how I should release code along with the code. Jesus Christ on a stick. Take a fucking chill pill Adam. That 'you' is the literary you, not you personaly. You (not the literary you) should seriously consider counseling. Talk about hair-triggered. If anybody is guilty of demanding people do it 'their way' it's you. You really need to better understand this inability of yours to seperate your self-worth as an individual from the ideas you espouse and supposedly put out for public dialog. Everybody has stupid idea, if you can't admit that then there's a problem more serious than having stupid ideas. Everybody makes mistakes everyday, and if you seriously think you don't then you have found your first mistake today. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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