December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: whats all this nonsense
by jrochkin＠cs.oberlin.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>I just signed onto this list. What the hell is all this nonsense that I hear >about mandating PGP signed messages? > >I thought the whole grassroots crypto thing was about protecting privacy >rights and individual liberty and all that. So what if someone wants to >post a message to cypherpunks AND DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO BE ABLE TO >PROVE THEY WROTE THE MESSAGE. Whether because they fear legal prosecution, >or some other social consequence down the line, or whatever Of course we all agree with you there, but as someone else mentioned, users would be perfectly free to sign with a _pseudonymous_ key. My key wouldn't have to be in the name of "Jonathan Rochkind," it could be "Dirk the Destroyer", or whatever else I wanted it to be. I'm not sure if Eric is suggesting that everyone submit their public key to the list or not. If he is, then things would be made a bit dificult, as you would have to make your one-time-only anonymous key, send it to toad.com, wait for it to be recognized, and _then_ send your message to the list. Assuming that not only do I not want your messages traceable to Jonathan Rochkind, but I also don't want them traceable to _each other_, then I'd have to make a new key before sending each message, and go through that whole rigamarole each time. I'm not how often people actually _would_ desire to do such a thing (generally, it's important to most people to build up a good reputation, pseudonymous or otherwise), but.... I agree you have a good point that it's important the list be set up so it's possible to contribute to it anonymously/pseudonomously. And that _some_ implementations of what Eric is suggesting might make that either impossible or just a pain in the ass (and we probably dont' want to do either). There are probably other implementations that wouldn't have this problem. Although I would still oppose them, pretty much on the grounds Tim May has been ranting about. (and I do mean ranting in the best way. :) ). People should pretty much be able to do what they want, and I don't see any compelling reason to force people to sign their messages whether they like it or not.

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Anarchists break rules, details at 11, was: The Market for Crypto--A Curmudgeon's View
by Pat Farrell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- eric(a)remailer.net (Eric Hughes) writes: > One underlying premise of Tim's argument is that the presence of these > actions at the server makes his life harder. > In what way? The server will not require a digital signature. > Unsigned messages will still be sent to the list. There need be no > change in the way that one sends and receives mail. > I refuse the argument that toad.com server actions make anybody's life > harder. A few days delay, which is what I think we are talking about, will clearly make following threads more difficult. And add to noise on the list, as the content of an early-non-signed message may be repeated and signed by someone else later on. After netcom's recent mail mis-delivery problems, I know all too well how hard it is to participate in discussions that are delivered in random-appearing order. A few hours delay will be indistinguishable to the netcom subscribers. My experience with rules and PPLs on other lists has not impressed me. YMMV. Whatcha trying to do, eric, lead that anarchists? Pat -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLtuEc7CsmOInW9opAQE/wAP+OmPDe8vD7/D5WvZpGvecPgec8oT9/sqN ghMf+uxUwiVfxe2NuSDCKrVcipYAV6h+Q3QRo/o4FijlwleT2wmaL8yxoBT5KffN SQAVINfx6n9Hb0hxH3md8JdOYD5jyOpPhEMh5JyaEUetNfK0bnXCzVUsj5v20SXp E7KXxmAZqPc= =SV9C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Pat Farrell Grad Student pfarrell(a)cs.gmu.edu Department of Computer Science George Mason University, Fairfax, VA Public key availble via finger #include <standard.disclaimer>

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AUTOPGP
by Mark Terka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anyone know where I can get a copy of AUTOPGP? I'd like to try it out and see whether it has any advantages over YARN's integrated PGP functions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Terka | werewolf(a)io.org | public key (werewolf) by Toronto,Canada | dg507(a)cleveland.freenet.edu | public key server or request ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Effects of Marking/Delaying Nonsigned Posts
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>If the delays remained entirely unexpected or random, quality would >degrade. Humans, however, have an uncanny ability to modify their >own behavior. I disagree with your inferrence that quality would stay roughly the same. >From Tim May: >(I am not getting list traffic right now, presumably due to the Netcom >overload problem, and so am only seeing messages I am directly copied >on. And maybe not all of them, either. [...] This seems to indicate that Tim is currently having trouble taking part in much of the discussion that is currently not directed at him due to delays in email processing. Gosh, I wonder if that effects the quality of his Cypherpunks Experience(tm). Multiply that by a possible 25% (arbitrary) of the list being delayed andmy crystal ball says round after round of the same replies and comments from different people will filter in after the discussion of the original comment ceaces. This frustrates the readership who is trying to find the meat of the list as well as the senders (which, it should be noted, is the desired goal) by having thier material appear irrelevent due to being delayed. I'm worried about the reader, mostly, but then there are those who will be frusterated enough to leave, for example Tim. Or perhaps I am one of the few here who values Tim's comments to the list enough to think the list would loose something if he took off. And I'd wager that Tim isn't the only one who would leave. Perhaps your ability to filter the garbage from the treasure is truly uncanny, Eric, and all this wouldn't effect you. I don't think most of the rest of us are quite so amazing. >I am also willing to risk a small amount of degradation to encourage >people to actually use encryption tools. I guess this is the answer then. There we go. >Having notification that a message wasn't signed was never presented >as one of the purposes of the proposal. My mistake then, I thought you had proposed marking messages as unsigned as an intermediate step. Too hard to keep track of who is saying what in this particular thread. -j, preparing to start the Cypherpunks Postal List. After all, what's a little delay? >Eric

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Is Pr0duct Cypher still around?
by lcottrell＠popmail.ucsd.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Having posted that massive spam asking Pr0duct Cypher for some information, it occurs to me to ask if he has been heard from lately. Has anyone seen anything from him lately? -------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell who does not speak for CASS/UCSD loki(a)nately.ucsd.edu PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. Encrypted mail welcome. Home page http://nately.ucsd.edu/~loki/ Home of "chain" the remailer chaining script. For anon remailer info, mail remailer(a)nately.ucsd.edu Subject: remailer-help "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche

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Re: Sign-or-delay
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Eric Hughes writes > I am still considering the "sign-or-delay" proposal for the toad.com > server, that is, sign your articles to the list or they'll be delayed > and eventually rejected. Well, it's easy to require people to include PGP signatures. However, for some people, it's difficult to do signatures in a secure and also convenient fashion across a mix of mailers; Tim's netcom+Mac example, or anyone using an insecure system. My laptop where I get my work-related mail really can't handle the volume of mail I get from cypherpunks; I'm using it as a terminal to talk to a netblazer to telnet to a Sun where I still have an account several gateways away, on which I haven't been root for over a year... Sure, I forward some of the interesting mail to the not-very-diskful laptop, and could wait for it to arrive and PGP-sign my replies, which will delay my articles anyway. On the other hand, if I sign them here, half of AT&T could probably grab the passphrase with a sniffer, so it's not something I'd trust my real keys to. Similarly, I wouldn't put real keys on netcom or other mass service provider. On the other hand, how carefully were you planning to make your system check signatures - does toad.com have the spare cycles to validate them all, or are you really going for syntax only? Thanks; Bill -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 3.2beta AjtHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTuretHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTuretHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTurexZ ITsBoGustHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTuretHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTuretHiSiSnOtAsIgfoo ReAlLyTrUsTmetHiSiSnOtAsIgNaaTureLouisFreehWasHeretHiSiSnOtAsIgN tAsIgNaaT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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The Market for Crypto--In Real Life
by gnu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May ranted: > In any case, the notion that a bunch of us--students, dabblers, > activists, engineers, etc.--can somehow create a finished product, or > a company, as some folks periodically try to argue for ("Let's do a > company!"), is not too likely. As Heinlein said, babies aren't too likely either. I'm immediately looking for a contractor to work on documentation for Cygnus Network Security, the Kerberos software. Our goal is to create a finished product. A bunch of us dabblers already created the company and got it to make money. If you're interested, send me mail at gnu(a)cygnus.com and show me why you'd be good at it and how soon you're available. The writer who started the job ended up unable to finish it for personal reasons. It'll help a lot to be in Boston or SF Bay Area since our Kerberos engineers who can explain what to write are there. I'm also "likely to" eventually need another crypto programmer, contract or full time. For this we don't have a burning need yet, but talk to me if you might come available, and stay in touch. General programming wizardry on some platform is the basic requirement. Not mastery, not skill, not a degree. Wizardry -- exceptional skill. Interest and expertise in crypto technology, markets, and politics are desirable. Interest and expertise in the guts of compiler tools is also desirable, since that's our other main business, and people swap back and forth at times. Yes, it's a job posting. I just couldn't resist this followup to Tim. And I suspect some of you might actually care to read job postings for crypto jobs here; I would. John -- John Gilmore gnu(a)toad.com -- gnu(a)cygnus.com -- gnu(a)eff.org Can we talk in private? Chairman, Crypto Committee Not if the FBI and NSA have their way. Electronic Frontier Foundation Board Let's sell free crypto software. Product Manager, Cygnus Network Security

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The pain of encrypting email
by dmandl＠bear.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Jonathan Rochkind wrote: > > > Because premail makes it incredibly easy to use PGP on a unix box. "Incredibly easy" is an exaggeration, since the docs themselves say that you need root privileges to install premail properly. The alternative is using premail in stand-alone mode, i.e., entering your mail line-by-line a la the generic mail program! Now, I think premail is beautiful, but the bottom line is that at this point it's not something I can actually use, like most email-encrypting tools I hear about, alas. --Dave.

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PGP hook for Eudora?
by dmandl＠bear.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Jonathan Rochkind wrote: > > > Because premail makes it incredibly easy to use PGP on a unix box. And, for > > that matter, the Eudora/PGP applescritps make it incredibly easy to use PGP > > on a mac. And there are some people working on an applescript that will I keep hearing about PGP hooks for (Mac) Eudora, but a casual search of at least five advertised ftp sites has turned up nothing. Can someone post an address where this stuff can definitely be found? Thanks. --Dave.

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Economist's Dash for E-cash
by rishab＠dxm.ernet.in 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've been away for a couple of days so I don't know if this has come up already, but... The Economist has proven yet again my firm belief that it's the most wired magazine around. In a special report on e-cash in the latest issue, it presents a lucid description of the pros and cons of different digicash, including Chaum. It then goes on to discuss in detail how e-cash could work, how it would be backed by real money and therefore not earn interest, how governments might get worried by the development of implicit currency markets beyond their control, how eventually e-cash might become an independent currency with no 'real' value, hinting at my outline of 'cooking-pot' markets in Electric Dreams #37. ObHeeHee: an article on the anti-DWEM backlash against Shakespeare quotes Gary Taylor, editor of the Oxford Shakespeare, as saying that "Shakespeare helped murder" Nicole Simpson. Why? The play Othello "makes a wife-murderer not only tragic but also, pervesely, heroic." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rishab Aiyer Ghosh "Clean the air! clean the sky! wash the wind! rishab(a)dxm.ernet.in take stone from stone and wash them..." rishab(a)arbornet.org Voice/Fax/Data +91 11 6853410 Voicemail +91 11 3760335 H 34C Saket, New Delhi 110017, INDIA

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