December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Illegal Acts & Crypto
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Some collected thoughts & misc. impressions: Images of the psychology of crypto-users: . scurrying around like rats, hiding in the dark from regular interactions (regular = unconcerned) . fear of being onesself in the light, lacking courage . having a view of life which is not trusting, but suspicious and cynical . not identifying with the group, therefore keeping things from them, something akin to hoarding & not sharing (closed to the other members of the society, rather than open) . not necessarily "officially" illegal, but generally not really "one of us", as in hypocritical - "with us, but not *of* us" i.e., an individual, having separated themselves from the group from the use of an individuating tool/mechanism. Encrypted Info (Positive): . being particular & specific, exclusive ("for your eyes only") . channelling the sent info to arrive at the intended destination only . limited to those involved, rather than diffused throughout to others for whom it is meaningless or without value; relevancy . the info being the product of one's Own (mind, purpose), therefore also being the prerogative of one's own judgement to determine its dissemination Encrypted Info (Negative): . fear that it *will* involve others, having a negative, destructive potential to harm innocents . fear of not being able to control the developments from these and from its larger counterpart, organized "crime" . trying to beat them to the punch instead of having to deal with the after-effects . inadequacy of preparations for dealing with the element of surprise in cases of destructive, harmful influences: Consequential Circumstance: . insufficient self-reliance, having to wait for the cavalry to come over the hill to save oneself. . having to maintain a relationship with the saviours (the managers & real owners of the general welfare) which maintains the individual in a dependent, subordinate, infantile state Blanc

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Re: (Fwd) What motivates Cryp
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 7:55 AM 07/01/94 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >J >Similarly my motivations for >J >using cryptography come simply from a desire for privacy from >J >Govt. and other snooping but NOT from the 'cyber-survivalist' >J >inclinations that seem to motivate some in the US at least. > >Distinguish "desire for privacy from Govt." and "'cyber-survivalist' >inclinations" -- seems like the identical motive. It *is* government that >digital volunteerists (a friendlier term) seek privacy from. The same as "desire for safety from thugs" and "NRA-Nut". I don't subscribe to the theory that I need to have a gun to keep myself safe, and I am antigun, but such as the US is now, I can see myself buying one under some ocnditions and being first in line to hand it over when they are finally outlawed. But I don't need a flak jacket, grenades, a bullet prrof car, etc. I may need crypto to keep my privacy, even though I believe in theory that it shouldn't be nessessary, but I don't need all the other bullshit (sorry if I'm stepping on anyone) 'cyber-survivalist' indicates. -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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Re: Detweiler clone at WS
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Roy M. Silvernail says: > > > A BBS is a publication. The > > > 1st Amendment was specifically written to outlaw the British licensing of > > > publications. No risk. > > > > Until some case law comes about that recognizes this, It Just Ain't So. > > Right now, electronic publishing isn't recognized by the courts as > > publishing (because we don't kill trees, I suppose). > Cubby vs. CompuServe is at least the beginning of that recognition. Bill Celebrate Independence Day the traditional way - overthrow a government! :-)

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Illegal Acts & Crypto
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The dumbest question of all: "But if you aren't doing anything illegal, why do you need crypto? (or have to worry about stop-and-frisk, or need legal due process protections.) Only lawbreakers have to worry if their privacy is violated." Great thought. Now tell me what will be illegal in 40 years in all the jurisdictions in which I will live. In addition, tell me what (legal) behaviors or characteristics of mine will nonetheless cause me to lose social approbation//jobs//friends//etc in all of the societies in which I will live. Statistics say I've got 40 years left. Forty years ago, smoking was a virtue and sodomy a vice. Twenty-five years ago, money laundering was as legal as church on a Sunday and every bank in America offered defacto secret bank accounts. Given the speed with which things are changing, in twenty-five more years, participating on a crypto mailing list like this could be punished by the death penalty under the Krypto Kingpins Kontrol Act of 2005. Or if things go another way, advocates of government key escrow systems could be subject to outlawry and instant public "vector control measures" if they accidentally wander onto the land of the wrong proprietary community. You never know. In the last 200 years of human history, people have been killed at one time or another in one place or another simply because they had any human characteristic you could name or indulged in any human behavior. You name the characteristic or behavior and I bet I can name the time when people somewhere were died because of it. Giving up your privacy is too great a risk. What do you gain. Besides, if we are all equal then the rulers are equal to us and we don't have to give up our autonomy to them. DCF --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

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Re: Detweiler clone at WS
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

R.>The down side was that licensing was mentioned as the first recourse R.>from the state. When we complained of the financial hit, the talk R.>turned to registration. But the sense was clearly toward proactive R.>state control. Are these people mentally retarded or what. A BBS is a publication. The 1st Amendment was specifically written to outlaw the British licensing of publications. No risk. DCF --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

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Re: What motivates crypto-folk?
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:45 AM 7/1/94 -0800, Jamie Lawrence wrote: >My own personal opinion is that waiting for governments to collapse >due to crypto and tech is gonna have you waiting a long, long time. God. What I do when the brain's offline. I'm looking at my wife's copy of this month's Harvard magazine, which is about, of all things, trees. It seems that the american chestnut used to be a great big tree. Remember the doggerel about the spreading chestnut tree and the smithy? Anyway, at the turn of the century an imported fungal disease killed all the chestnut trees to the ground. Someone in the article is quoted as saying "...chestnuts are continuing to sprout from the base and the tree is in the process of becoming a shrub." This apt metaphor is what I expect will happen to large organizations as a result of hyperdistributed (ubiquitous) computer networks and strong crypto. Of course, like the "expectation" that extraterrestrial life exists in the universe, it might as well be a religious tenent until we actually see it happen. Having political discussions like this one only gets us in the mood to make it happen if it's possible, but it certainly don't make it so. I don't think I could call myself a crypto-anarchist, even after that somewhat hardline paragraph. I call myself a "congenital republican". That's inconsistent enough to keep my friends and family happy, and myself gainfully employed. What I realy think is my own business. As usual, Tim is right. This really isn't crypto. It's just "about" crypto. >Jamie "Is a Mayist Like a Janist?" Lawrence > >-- >"Blah Blah Blah" >___________________________________________________________________ >Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com> Bob "I ain't no Jainist, I just ate bugs(fleas?) for lunch" Hettinga ;-). ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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Re: What motivates crypto-folk?
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:38 PM 07/01/94 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >I'm also tired of them, and I don't spam folks who are liberals or >leftists. I've generally found that people's political views are >formed when they are of college age, and rarely change significantly >after that. Not sure why this is so, but I think it is. So that makes 2 things we agree on... :) And I think that you are right about college. Mine have taken minor changes (maybe that's because I haven't ever finished school), like on crypto for instance (I admit it... used to lean to the anti-side), but school choice does have greater significance than I think a lot of people give it credit for. >Just to be clear about this, in no way, shape or form am I just >"waiting for governments to collapse." I wasn't refering to you specifically, Tim. The folk on this list for (well, the most part) are a lot more active than the population at large (pat, pat). When I wrote that I was thinking of this little enclave of folks that used to frequent several lists that I was on and post enourmous tirades about how then the government shriveled up and died of it own accord everything was gonna be great and so on. Gimme a busy anarchist to an couch potato anything any day... >I'll make the charitable assumption that "I prefer doing something with >the tools at hand to dreaming" is not an insinuation that we >libertarians or crypto anarchists are idle dreamers. As above, I should have been more careful about the insinuation. Tim, Didn't know you did charity. ;) >The Jains eschew eating living things, while the Mayists *only* eat >freshly-killed meat. But you knew that. Wow, that makes three things... >--Klaus! von Future Prime -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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My view on Forwardings
by tcmay＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I agree with Graham Toal that forwardings are getting out of hand. I'm quick on the "Delete" key, as Sandy Sandfort is, so it doesn't bother me _too_ much. But what it does indicated is general cluelessness. For example, minutes ago I received yet another forwarding of the "USACM" press release! Did the forwarder think we had not seen the versions sent yesterday? Or perhaps he was not reading the list closely enough to see these forwardings--and thought we needed another copy just for good measure. My solution is to keep a list (manually) of folks who have acted thusly, and then to avoid responding to them in the future. (I can't easily implement kill files in "elm.") I might suggest a "press release list" that people could subscribe to, except that alternate lists have failed, and the forwarders are unlikely to remain confined to such a narrow forum. And as Graham noted, numerous newsgroups already exist for such press releases. I have to admit that I've started to ignore most EFF, CPSR, and EPIC press releases, as they are low on content and heavy on long-winded policy statements. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Physical storage of key is the weakest link
by Matt Thomlinson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

what does this mean, exactly? anything? thx, mattT ---------- From: Hal <hfinney(a)shell.portal.com> To: <cypherpunks(a)toad.com> Subject: Re: Physical storage of key is the weakest link Date: Friday, July 01, 1994 6:31PM Tim May writes: >Speculatively, knowing the passphrase-encrypted secret key may make it >easier to crack RSA; this is just a speculation. It is not yet even >been proven that RSA is a strong as factoring. i.e., we don't know for >sure that the RSA information provided as part of the protocol doesn't >in some way make the problem simpler than straight factoring of the >modulus. Here is a little-known fact. In fact, I had forgotten it myself until what Tim said reminded me. Your PGP secret key file is partially encrypted using IDEA keyed with the hash of your pass phrase. But some fields are left in the clear. In particular, the number of bits in p and q is left exposed, as is the number of bits in d, the decryption exponent. Now, this is not really a big deal. Usually with a 1024-bit key p and q will both be 512 bits long, so knowing this for sure doesn't add that much information. And I don't think that knowing the exact number of bits in the factors will help with the factoring when the two factors are about the same size. Nevertheless it does represent an information leak that many people may not be aware exists. One way an attacker might exploit this is as follows. Suppose he wants to do an exhaustive search of pass phrases. As Tim said, a lot of people may have ones which are easy to guess. How does he know when he's guessed correctly? The secret key has a checksum (in the clear). After decrypting all of d, p, q, and u, PGP accumulates a checksum as it does this and com- pares it with the checksum stored in the secret key. If they match, PGP (or the cracker) knows that he has used the right pass phrase. This requires decrypting all four of these numbers, a total of about 320 bytes. But he can do a provisional check much faster by using the in-the-clear lengths. Just decrypting the first byte of each MP number allows you to see immediately what the bit length of the resulting MP value will be since they are stored in MSB form. For the most extreme case, suppose the length of p were one more than a multiple of 8, say 505 bits. Now we decrypt the first part of p and see if the first byte of the decryption is exactly 1. If not, we can know immediately that we have the wrong pass phrase and move on without doing any more IDEA op- erations. This will immediately reject 255 out of 256 wrong pass phrases. I don't know how much of a speedup you would actually see from this; IDEA has a setup phase and you still have to run MD5 on each pass phrase. But possibly it could be significant. Hal Finney hfinney(a)shell.portal.com

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Re: Physical storage of key is the weakest link
by Matt Thomlinson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

duh. sorry, guys. wow, that doesn't happen very often. a personal msg from me to the list. won't happen again. mt (phantom(a)u.washington.edu)

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