September 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows
by Meyer Wolfsheim 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > Yeah, you're fast running out of points that aren't dull. Perhaps, but that's not my reason. I simply find you to be dull. > > > They people engaging in them certainly felt justified. Whether you agree > > > or not is really a different question. It also demonstrates the > > > relativity of 'good' and 'evil'. > > > > Of course. > > Then you admit the primary failure in your assertion. What, exactly, do you think my assertion is? > Now you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. > > Naughty on you... I am? Please explain these rules to me, so that I may follow them. > The assertion was there are concepts of 'good'/'evil' which are accepted > by ALL human societies. "Are currently accepted" and "must always be inherently accepted" are two entirely different statements. I am claiming the former. This is not irreconcilable with your [rather obvious, and dull] points. -MW-

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by david L moore 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

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[Fwd: RFC: increased interest for cryptographic software?]
by Harmon Seaver 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

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aimee's anal urges
by mattd 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

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RE: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows
by Jim Choate 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > [This is becoming a rat-hole, and I'm not interested getting too far into > it. I think most of you understand my point.] Yeah, you're fast running out of points that aren't dull. > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > > > > Different societies have different definitions of evil; some evils are > > > hard to justify by any means, however. > > > > They people engaging in them certainly felt justified. Whether you agree > > or not is really a different question. It also demonstrates the > > relativity of 'good' and 'evil'. > > Of course. Then you admit the primary failure in your assertion. > > If we were for a moment to accept the concept of 'universal evil' then we > > are faced with a simple litmus test. If it is really universal than a > > rock, rabbit, or person will find it equally offensive. > > > > Or are you perhaps suggesting that people are somehow 'universal' (ie > > anthropocentric)... > > I am not stating that there is any act of "evil" necessarily offensive to > all societies, past, present, and future. However, I am stating that there > *are* acts of "evil" that are not tolerated by any society currently in > existence. Now you're changing the rules in the middle of the game. Naughty on you... The assertion was there are concepts of 'good'/'evil' which are accepted by ALL human societies. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. George Santyana The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Freedom of speech is for "Cypherpunk critics" too
by Nomen Nescio 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

Tim May writes: > Funny, I notice how many of the critics of Cypherpunks and supporters of > this express train approach to repealing the Bill of Rights are > themselves hiding behind Cypherpunks remailers, Hushmail aliases, and > Ziplip nyms. If you're upset that "critics of the Cypherpunks" are able to speak freely then you shouldn't have supported the technologies that enable them to do so. Free speech is for everyone, not just those who toe your line of violence and blood revenge.

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RE: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows
by Sandy Sandfort 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > My apologies; I never meant that as the > implication. I highly doubt that you, or > most people, would ever be capable of evil > on 1/10th the scale of this attack. Thanks, but I'd go a bit further. The percentage of humans who would be capable of such evil has to be vanishingly small. Unfortunately, that percentage is not zero so this sort of thing continues to happen. > However, if you assume lack of conscience > and moral indifference, this does become a > cost/benefit situation. We have to assume it because it demonstrably exists. The trick then is, to make the costs greater or the benefits less. Easier said then done, but those are our only alternatives. > One of the problems with capital punishment > is that it isn't much of a deterrent, except > to the Christians who believe in Hell. I think a much strong argument can be made that those who do not believe in an afterlife would be more deterred than those who do. > You can only be executed once. Yeah, but it's that once that counts forever. In any event, that's the situation in which we live. There will always be that tiny minority that will do evil. The rest of us are left to monkey with the cost/benefit to reduce the incidences of such evil. Life goes on. > Americans will do everything they can not > to believe that this could have been a > domestic action. We want to blame the > "sand-niggers" and the "rag-heads." The > fact that this could have been a sociopath > with the ultimate get-rich quick scheme is > unthinkable.[2] And so far, unsupported by the facts. Time will tell. In the mean time, Meyer, I'll bet you, or anyone on this list, a C-note that this is the work of Bin Laden. Any takers? S a n d y

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RE: Crypto-anonymity greases HUMINT intelligence flows
by Meyer Wolfsheim 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > > Have there ever been any large-scale terroristic attacks where profit was > > the only motive? > > terrorism <> economics. Economics as a direct goal isn't the issue in > terrorism. You're 'mixing your metaphors'... No, Jim, I am not. If one were to commit an act of destruction, in order to manipulate economic markets with the ensuing public fear or outrage, that would be terrorism with economics as a direct goal. You're thinking too narrowly. -MW-

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Lists of those to be arrested in a state of national emergency
by Tim May 15 Sep '01

15 Sep '01

On Saturday, September 15, 2001, at 11:37 AM, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > > Now is a perfect time for the Government to round up and arrest those > people whose imprisonment might otherwise inspire protests or public > outrage, whether or not these arrests are related to terrorism. I'm watching an ABC special on Gen. Groves, the builder of the Pentagon and manager/commander of the Manhattan Project. (One of the first breaks from WTC-specific news, and even this is of course related to the events.) Anyway, they just showed the papers that had J. Robert Oppenheimer on a list in May 1941 of those who were to be arrested by the FBI in the event that a "national emergency" was declared. As it happened, Oppenheimer was _not_ arrested, nor placed in concentration camps the way most Japanese- and (some) German-ancestry Americans were. (They actually showed the papers authorizing the arrest, should an emergency be declared.) But this shows that such lists have in fact existed. And that mere academic scientists were on such lists. Thought criminals, as they had no involvement in government agencies or the military. We are now in a state of national emergency, declared by Bush yesterday. Draw your own conclusions. --Tim May

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15 Sep '01

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