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17 Dec '03

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Re: Please send me SSL prob
by Joe Tardo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Reply to: RE>>Please send me SSL problems... Jeff: The name chosen for SSL was, perhaps, unfortunate and misleading, but should not get in the way of the kind of service it provides. I keep combing the spec looking for socket-like api's, and so far have not found any :-). > I've looked at >what it takes to make some existing protocols work with SSL, and I'm not >convinced that its always appropriate. For example FTP and RCMD use >multiple connections, which is a royal pain. Doesn't HTTP use a new connection for every GET? > If a secure IP standard emerges that is widely deployed and provides >similar services, I don't see why SSL couldn't just go away (this is my >opinion, not an official position of netscape). The ipsec people are currently debating what it means to do replay detection on an unreliable datagram service, what it means to authenticate individual users in a layer that only knows how to name host endpoints, how a protocol specification deals with how policy would be set for mixed encryption service requirements, etc. This is not the first time these points have been debated in the history of the universe, nor the first attempt at a 'one size fits all' security protocol. I, personally, would not be too quick to expect IP security to solve all of your problems, but it will do a better job on, say, host-to-host disclosure protection. It will, however, require new kernel code or low-level driver or hardware hacks, which simultaneously provide the better protection and a barrier to security deployment for a product like Netscape's. Now, how about fixing SSL's keying so it has perfect forward secrecy? -Joe

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Re: Patents and trade secrets was: Encryption algorithms used in PrivaSoft
by thad＠hammerhead.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> But don't they have to put something on the patent application? Can they > claim trade secret status for something that was on a patent application, > but rejected? That seems like they're getting it both ways. At this point, in this country, a patent is secret until it is issued. It is interesting to note that the process of issuing a patent can take an indefinite period, and to some extent it is in the control of the person seeking the patent. The typical slimy thing to do is to file for a patent, and keep it a trade secret too. Delay the issuance until somebody discovers your secret, then allow the patent to be issued. This is called a "submarine" patent. It allows the best of both worlds, and extends the patent as far in to the future as possible (17 years from issue date, in this country, regardless of filing date). You can delay the patent's issuance by continuing to file amendments to it. Gilbert Hyatt's recent patent on microprocessors is the classic example. Now, this is all expected to change, to become more harmonious with the rest of the world. The changes that I've heard are 1) Go to first-to-file instead of first-to-invent 2) Life is 20 years from filing date, instead of 17 years from issue date 3) Publicize patents some fixed time from filing date, say 1 year As you can imagine there are armies of lawyers on both sides of the issue, so I don't think that you'll see any changes in the law any time soon, but you never know. thad -- Thaddeus Beier email: thad(a)hammerhead.com Technology Development vox: 408) 286-3376 Hammerhead Productions fax: 408) 292-8624

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Re: GAK patents, anyone?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:34 AM 9/9/97 +0200, Anonymous wrote: ... >----- >http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/notices/terrog.txt >----- > >Petitioning to Make Special Patent Applications Relating to >Inventions For Countering Terrorism > >New patent applications are normally taken up for >examination in the order of their effective United States >filing date. However, the Commissioner may provide that a >patent application will be advanced out of turn for >examination if a petition to make the patent application >special under 37 CFR 1.102(c) or (d) is granted. > >On July 31, 1996, Vice President Gore stated that "[i]t is >imperative that those seeking to prevent terrorist >activities have all of the tools necessary to accomplish >their task." In view of the importance of developing >technologies for countering terrorism and the desirability >of prompt disclosure of advances made in these fields, the >Patent and Trademark Office is establishing a new category >for petitions to accord "special" status to patent >applications relating to counter-terrorism inventions. >International terrorism as defined in 18 U.S.C. 2331 is >"activities that >(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life >that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United >States or of any State, or that would be a criminal >violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United >States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (i) to >intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to >influence the policy of a government by intimidation or >coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by >assassination or kidnaping." ... Back up just a minute. Aren't inventions protected if the patent is pending? If not, why do such well known companies who undoubtly have savvy legal council produce products stamped "patent pending"? Is this just a way of forcing those who take this special treatment to bow to additional government restrictions? An action which they would have to do as if they didn't, a competitor might get the inventors idea patented before the inventor? Sounds more like a manner to place certain inventions that are crucial to "national security" under tighter regulations. How long before they expand the definition? Because, if they impose additional contractual conditions upon the advanced patent, this could mean that crypto could be regulated constitutionally in the future by regulating who the inventor could share it with.

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Re: Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithm
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:28 PM 9/8/97 PDT, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote: > >> >>I will just repeat Prof. Choate's question, how do you generate Ch. >> >> >Ch generate > >begin >Xn+1=aXn(1.0-Xn) >return Xn+1 >end > >Do you understand Japanese ? >If you understand Japanese, >I will send theis of Gao's Chaos Cryptosystem to you. > I don't understand Japanese, barely got through discrete structures, and hate calculus. But I'd like to see the source for the aXn() function.

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Re: House National Security committee guts SAFE, worse than no b
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Michael, you once again fail to note the important political issues here. Sometimes civil liberties, freedom, and constitutional rights must be ignored in favor of pragmatism. It is important at all costs to remain a player in the game. Instead of opposing bad crypto legislation, we should instead work inside the process, to gain a seat at the table. That is why it is highly significant that both Commerce and FBI want to rid us of our freedom but would do it in subtly different ways. -Declan On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, Michael Sims wrote: > Jonah Seiger wrote: > > > None the less, this is much bigger than a quibble over details, > > IMHO. There are important policy implications of this language. And > > politically, it is extremely significant that Reinsch would be > > critical at all, considering that the Committee voted to > > substantially undercut the bill (one of Reinsch's top priorities). > > Perhaps you missed this nuance. > > Well, I know that *I* feel much better now that I know about this > nuance. Knowing that the rulers of this country have significant > differences about who should control the universal key management > and encryption infrastructure once it's in place (who gets the Power) > really eases my concerns. Thank you. > > > -- Michael Sims >

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Re: FBI calls for mandatory key escrow; Denning on export ctrls (fwd)
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 We have batted this around and around ... I am curious though what the more legal-oriented among us feel the current wording portends for us ... say it gets passed ... just what will be the legal status of the use of non-GAKked crypto? There is little question that steganography will be raised to a high art form under these proposals. That not withstanding, I would just like to get a feel for exactly where it leaves the current PGP et al. community? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNBYbJsdZgC62U/gIEQKB+ACgplZ/gmiKJEQgM5syzV2u1ls1LpsAn3Th 7veoktJjakAcKVzXTi8m0L+9 =ws+o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys - Send Email Subject "Get PGP Key" "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." -- Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead (1943)

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Re: Nuclear Hedge Funds / Social Engineering in History / Wiretap DiFi
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:01 PM 9/8/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: ... >On the other hand, 0.5 kt of ANFO in the basement wasn't quite enough >to take the towers out. ... The version that I read was that the truck was merely parked next to a pillar hoping that that would do it. The guys weren't physics majors. With enough people here who speak in pure math, there might be a few who could calculate the best spot for such a device based on blueprints of the building. My opinion, one place the charges primarily along one side. The north one. That way, when the columns give, the building falls on more of Manhattin. BOOM! Timberrr.. This is speculation, of course. Purely for academic consideration and all that.

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Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote: > "Building a nuclear capability would cost $1 billion or more, require 1,300 engineers, and take years. Developing biological weapons could cost less than $100,000, require five biologists, and take just a few weeks, using equipment that is readily available almost anywhere in the world." Science News 5/18/96 ... >Disregarding the creative chemistry experiments available under your sink and around the house, but considering the way the government and media can characterize any assortment of household items or literature a question arises - If you have meat in your refrigerator do you in fact have the basis for a biological weapon of mass destruction? The fact that many foods can be readily converted (by improper handling or outright negligence) to poisons can beg the question of whether having food in your posession does not constitute a health hazard to your children. AND we all know that the well being of one child is what it is all about. Don't we? ... Don't disregard them too quickly. I can't remember the name of the fungus, or the toxin extracted from it, (and my science and technology encyclopedias are 2 hours away), but there is a common fungus found in soil. This is the stuff that can survive high temp treatment. IF memory serves, it's botulism, that is no guarantee. Anyway, this toxin was listed in the text that I have access to as being one of the strongest known to man. And it is literally under your feet. Of course I don't know how to distill it, but I could probably make some guesses.

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Re: Bright, Loud and Quick OR...?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lucky Green wrote: > At 09:20 AM 9/9/97 -0500, Frank wrote: > >>>> > Based on recent statements by "officials" of the former > Soviet Union a number of "suitcase" nukes are missing. > Possible sale price - $1,000,000. > <<<< > $1,000,000 per suitcase nuke seems way to cheap. Heck, at that price, > some individuals on this list might be in the market. What's the yield > of these suitcase nukes? > > BTW, any idea what the law has to say about private ownership of nukes > by US citizens? Assume for a moment that the actual device is kept > outside the US. They are legal to own, as long as you don't carry them concealed on your physical person. It is legal to keep them in a locked suitcase. Only two left. 10% discount for cypherpunks. Can drop-ship to destination of your choice for no extra charge. (I'll need the cash up front if you live in the DC area.) Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld "The Final Frontier" http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/carljohn

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