- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s)
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ichudov(a)algebra.com allegedly said: > > Firebeard wrote: > > > > >>>>> Igor Chudov @ home writes: > > > > IC> This is where the distributed nature of the list comes in. if > > IC> someone disagrees with Jim's AUP, he or she can use soem other > > IC> mailing list host. > > > > And once I'm up and running, my cypherpunks list server will > > not be interconnected with any server which has a similar AUP. The > > implication of the AUP is that if you _don't_ comply with it, you will > > be blocked. Without such an implication, the AUP is meaningless, and > > I'm dedicated that there should be no filtering/blocking of any kind, > > of the list. Persons behaving 'unacceptably' should be handled by > > social pressures by others in the 'community' of the list, and not by > > policies of the list operators. > > Which is, again, a perfectly fine idea. > > I would probably disconnect from any server that > > a) does not let certain messages go through (unless they are fighting a DOS > attack) and > b) Alters content of any messages. > I can understand this sentiment, given the events of the past couple of months, but it seems short-sighted. If this scheme grows there could be several hundred or more mailers involved, and there is no technical reason why moderated lists couldn't be included. Remember that each list operator actually represents a community of users, users who are *free* to go elsewhere if they choose. Clearly, some people would chose to populate a filtered list. There is no reason whatsoever to discriminate against them. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: 5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E 87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

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Re: Fuck UseNet
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> So, basically, you're saying that the flight from censorship should > be toward a new CypherPunk 'home' where one is effectively censored > automatically unless one kisses the ass of a Cabal? Absolutely, It is really, as far as I see it anyway, just a stop-gap measure. The caballers haven`t got enough room to do their censorship on the 18000 or so big 7 groups so they decide to fuck up the alt. heirachy as well ;-) Hopefully Igor and co.`s network of Majordomo's should be fully operational soon (as I understand it two are up and a third is on it's way) then we can move back there. Might even get it finished before the 20th????? Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Dave Hayes takes over Cypherpunks
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto <toto(a)sk.sympatico.ca> writes: > aga wrote: > > How about that we require everybody to state their sex and sexual > > orientation in the future, so we have no future problems. > > I am a "Male Heterosexual" -- what about the rest of you? > > If you refuse to answer, you are presumed to be a gay boy who > > is hiding it. > > I am a "Male, Cross-Dressing Heterosexual." I'm a male heterosexual. Cocksucker John Gilmore is a faggot. So is his boss Bobby Inman from NSA. John Gilmore is a U.S.Government shill out to suck resources into fruitless flame war and to sabotage our efforts to deploy crypto. What about Timmy May and Eric Hughes? Are they faggots in U.S.G. employ or mere mindless dupes? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
by Martin Minow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My first reaction to the "Death of Cypherpunks" (Declan McCullagh's article in http://netlynews.com Feb 12, 1997) is that it is another example of "The Tragedy of the Commons." -- the (unsolvable) problem of unlimited access to a limited resource. Cypherpunks was also susceptable to the strange Internet phenomenon where people could be proud of their anti-social, bad behavior (flame wars, "grafitti" in the form of spam). For this reason, I suspect that the future of the Internet in general, and Cyphperpunks in particular, will require serious editorial control (as is done by the Risks and Privacy digests). The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership -- but not limit what members might write. In the long term, I suppose we'll have sufficiently intelligent software agents that can recognize spam and flaming and invisibly delete them from our e-mail in-boxes. What bothers me more than anything else about the "solutions" I've seen proposed to the death of Cypherpunks is that they rely on technology -- and reject human judgement -- to solve what is, in reality, a social problem. (One can certainly make the same argument about the V-chip, browser porn filters, and similar hacks.) Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in both ends of the censorship/moderation problem (I'm probably the only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable. Martin Minow minow(a)apple.com ps: (From McCullagh): > But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is > adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no > precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May > wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk. > Nope: alt.cypherpunks will not be distributed to many sites that would accept an e-mail list. Also, it's too easy for the disgruntled to forge cancel group messages. I'm afraid that human judgement is still required.

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Re:
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Is it legal or illegal to send a > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country? Yes. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Congressional subcommittee hearings on computer security
by Omegaman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Computer crimes rife, unreported By Reuters February 13, 1997, 9:45 a.m. PT WASHINGTON--Security experts say hackers are finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable. "If I want to steal money, a computer is a much better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, director of engineering for Open Market, told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on computer security. " Has anyone been following this debate more closely? Nothing in any of the articles I've seen on this story have mentioned the role of strong encryption. <rhetorical question mode on> Why can't banks better protect themselves? Why can't banks better authenticate electronic transactions to prevent theft & break-ins? Why is the such a dearth of protective measures available to the institutions? The public has a right to know! <rhetorical question mode off> Seriously, though, has anyone been following these hearings in more detail? me --------------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door, PGP Key fingerprint = | How are you gonna come? 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 | With your hands upon your head, 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 | Or on the trigger of your gun?" Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton" "Subject:"to get my public key | _London_Calling_ , 1980 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re:
by Omegaman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > > Is it legal or illegal to send a > > PGP encrypted message from the US to someone in another country? > > Yes. > > No it's not. Where do you get this? It would be illegal to send them a copy of the PGP program. But sending encrypted messages is not illegal. Please, cite your source --------------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door, PGP Key fingerprint = | How are you gonna come? 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 | With your hands upon your head, 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 | Or on the trigger of your gun?" Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton" "Subject:"to get my public key | _London_Calling_ , 1980 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Feds OK 128-bit crypto amid protests
by Timothy N. Hill 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 19:14 -0500 97-02-13, Bradley Dunn wrote: >See: >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7925,00.html >for details. Thanks for the pointer. Note that, unlike the previous three recipients of crypto export licenses, Open Market did not enable government access to keys. Instead they went through the "expensive ... exercise" of convincing "government officials that the product could not be used to encrypt anything but specific financial numbers." - Tim Timothy N. Hill <tnh(a)acm.org> "We all love to instruct, Wellesley, Massachusetts though we can teach only <http://www.ma.ultranet.com/~tnh/> what is not worth knowing." PGP F058F75D 99C5122F 21C5BEF5 620C1D3C - Elizabeth Bennet

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Re: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) (fwd)
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate allegedly said: > > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:08:21 -0800 > > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> > > Subject: Private property & the cypherpunks list(s) > [...] > > What I really find interesting is that in the 3 years SSZ has been up and > the 8 mailing lists (with about 300 subscribers total) nobody has ever > complained about the public domain policy and nobody has ever put a > copyright header on their messages. All these lists are technical and > several of them are directly involved with technical development of > projects, some for commercial apps. > > > Jim Choate > CyberTects > ravage(a)ssz.com > > Jim, if I put "Copyright (c) 1997 by Kent Crispin. All Rights Reserved." in my .sig, would that constitute a "fair-use header"? In general, I rather like your policy. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: 5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E 87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

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Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
by Omegaman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> The only other alternative I can see would be to limit membership -- > but not limit what members might write. The notion that there are "members" in some kind of formal fashion is inherently un-cypherpunk in my book and would most likely be rejected. > Having been "on" the net for over 15 years -- and with experience in > both ends of the censorship/moderation problem (I'm probably the > only Cypherpunks member to have had a book "banned in Boston"), I'm > sorry that a handful of sociopaths managed to destroy this > experiment in anarchy, but I suspect that this was inevitable. In your 15 years on-line you should KNOW that it's an inevitable cycle inherent to anarchic forums like cypherpunks. But the notion that cypherpunks is dead and destroyed is silly. Cypherpunks will (and already are) reform and renew as is, I believe, necessary. Whether or not the name cypherpunks is used and embraced is irrelevant. Those interested in cryptography as a tool of personal privacy and freedom will inevitable congregate in the self-organizing fashion that "cypherpunks" have always recognized. The "human judgement" you are referring to is leadership. Leadership is not necessarily anathema to cypherpunks. Leadership is provided by those who try to post signal and ignore the noise. Those who continue to push the discussion forward. People inevitably tire of robust forums such as this. The sociopaths and the leaders come and go in waves. Let the forum mutate in whatever way it chooses. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com>|"When they kick out your front door, PGP Key fingerprint = | How are you gonna come? 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 | With your hands upon your head, 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 | Or on the trigger of your gun?" Send email with "get key" as the| -- The Clash, "Guns of Brixton" "Subject:"to get my public key | _London_Calling_ , 1980 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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