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Re: Question for article
by collins＠newton.apple.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Say someone fucks you over (real or imagined) or flames you severely. What >sort of nasty things can you do to them or their data? You know, like >e-mail bombings etc. I don't need particulars, since this is pointed at a >mainstream audience. (It also might not get published if the technophobic >editor(s) think its too risque, if you know what I mean.) You can: - 1 - If the damage done you was real, not just an annoyance, then you might litigate. - 2 - Otherwise, or if there is reason to believe that it was without intent, then you could be a grown-up: live and learn. Purile retaliation is the demesne of bullies and children. >I have some ideas already, but I'd like to hear from the pros. :-> This sounds like people who study martial arts so they can `really kick some ass'. Serious students of many disciplines consider it for defense only. This is the case with the technology of privacy. You have seriously mistaken this list. This is not a list of `expert electronic vigalantes' who deal out home brew justice. This is a group of people with concerns about technological encroachment on personal privacy, and ensuring that the information age doesn't swallow law abiding citizens into a new world of glass houses. I am sorry to say I can easily imagine what you must have been reading to give you this impression. Scott Collins | "Few people realize what tremendous power there | is in one of these things." -- Willy Wonka ......................|................................................ BUSINESS. voice:408.862.0540 fax:974.6094 collins(a)newton.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. 5 Infinite Loop, MS 305-2B Cupertino, CA 95014 ....................................................................... PERSONAL. voice/fax:408.257.1746 1024:669687 catalyst(a)netcom.com

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POLI: Politics vs Technol
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

H>Have people forgotten the Clipper proposal, with the possible H>follow-on to make non-Clipper encryption illegal? To the extent this H>proposal has been or will be defeated, it will happen through political H>maneuvering, not technology. If it got that far, a ban on unapproved crypto would be defeated by litigation not politicking. There is no chance that a crypto ban would be upheld by the Supremes these days. The courts have explicitly ruled that one can speak other languages (than English) if one wishes. Crypto is just another language. H>Have people forgotten the PGP export investigation? Phil Zimmermann H>hasn't. He and others may be facing the prospect of ten years in prison H>if they were found guilty of illegal export. I'd like to see some indictments first. The trial would be fun. Long sentences are unlikely in any case. H>If anyone has any suggestions for how to escape from jail into H>cyberspace I'd like to hear about them. The same way one survives and atomic bomb (for those who asked) by *not* being there when it goes off. Those indicted have two years prior to trial to leave the country. Anyone who can't figure out how to flee the jurisdiction in two years deserves prison. H>Mike's SecureDrive is a terrific program for protecting privacy. But H>if we want to keep keys secret from politically-motivated H>investigations, we have to rely on the very political and H>non-technological Fifth Amendment (an amendment which Mike Godwin of EFF H>and others contend does not actually protect disclosure of cryptographic H>keys). Again, we need to win political, not technological, victories in H>order to protect our privacy. Encryption alone will absolutely protect the 99.99% of communications that are never the subject of any government disclosure orders. Investigations take *serious* money. The government can only investigate (let alone prosecute) a very small number of individuals. Since much of their attention will necessarily be on others, the members of this list -- much less the general public -- have little to worry about. What's the big deal. Dan White emptied his revolver into the Mayor of the City of San Francisco, reloaded, and then emptied it again into the body of a member of the Board of Supervisors. For this crime, he served 5 years and 2 months. Since nothing we are doing is worse, we can't serve more than that amount of time. (I know, I know. Just kidding.) The criminal justice system is a pretty dull tool, however. The Feds have lost most of the big political cases that went to trial over the last few years. They lost all but one of the insider trading cases. They lost the BCCI case. They lost the Ollie North prosecution. They lost the Steve Jackson games case. In confrontations with the Feds, behave like the guy who was acquitted of insider trading in the Princeton Partners case -- wear a Cat hat reading "Shit Happens" to all the negotiating sessions. Remember too that in the absence of war, 99.99% of the damage "the government" does to you is actually self inflicted. Don't obey. Don't line up. Don't fill out the proper forms, properly. Don't give them your right name and address. Keep fixed in your mind the words of the first rebel, a fallen angel, who said, "Non Servatum" (I will not serve). DCF Who will request that the jury at *his* trial be required to watch Schindler's List. --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

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Clipper FOIA requests...
by a2＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I would like to publicly thank John Gilmore for his tireless pursuit of this important issue. -a2

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Re: Question for article
by cfrye＠ciis.mitre.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Hello; I read your postings in alt.wired with much interest. >I am working on an article in the 'electronic frontier' vein, kind of like >a cyber-gunslinger piece, and I'd love to have your input... Great, just the sort of publicity we need; we're out here on the frontier, alone with our reputations, and if you mess with us? We shoot you. > >Say someone fucks you over (real or imagined) or flames you severely. What >sort of nasty things can you do to them or their data? You know, like >e-mail bombings etc. I don't need particulars, since this is pointed at a >mainstream audience. (It also might not get published if the technophobic >editor(s) think its too risque, if you know what I mean.) I have some >ideas already, but I'd like to hear from the pros. :-> Bad angle, man. Some folks might get a kick out of screwing over someone else, but doing it invites the authorities to step in and put the handcuffs on all of us by restraining our access or tools (at least the legal ones). If it's only a flame and you're established - no problem, just ignore it or defend yourself once or twice and let it go. Besides, you're asking us to tell you the questionably ethical stuff we could theoretically do if we were motivated. I don't think we would be, except in an extreme case, so I would argue that the "rootin', tootin', quick-drawin' console cowboy" image you're trying to perpetuate is way off the mark. Also remember, the probable penalty for mail bombing or any data destruction is being forced off your account which means that you need to find alternative access or *be* *gone* *forever*. Access isn't as hard to come by as it used to be, but reputations are damn hard to live down. Magnetic media store bits reliably for about seven years, but our memories last much longer. -- Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish."

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Clipper FOIA requests...
by m5＠vail.tivoli.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Arthur Abraham writes: > I would like to publicly thank John Gilmore for his tireless pursuit > of this important issue. Here here. Hip hip hoorah, and so on. I think it embodies the spirit in which this country was founded, a spirit that seems more and more remote nowadays. -- Mike McNally :: m5(a)tivoli.com :: Day Laborer :: Tivoli Systems :: Austin \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\_-u-t-a-o-h-r-s-c-l- -r-e- -e-t-c-e ///////////////////////////////////// j-s- -n-t-e- -i-k-y-g-e-n-t-n-a-l

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Re: Here come the data fascists
by fnerd＠smds.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Brad Dolan <bdolan(a)well.sf.ca.us> fwds (thanks, Brad)- > San Jose Mercury News > By LAWRENCE J. MAGID <magid(a)latimes.com> > > Do we really need Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Congress, the FCC, the FTC and > countless other bureaucracies meddling in this new industry? > The answer is a qualified yes. I love this resurgence of the idea of "just a little" regulation. How to be a plausible policy wonk straight out of the box. As if it were a new idea. As if that weren't how it always starts. Oh boy, a new field for everyone to propose their two cents worth of regulation on. > ...The > government must be involved, but, as the Vice President has promised, > it must also leave lots of room for both entrepreneurs and the corporate > giants to play their hands. ! "We must make positive noises about small business while protecting the status quo." I heard snippets of what must have been Gore, on NPR, talking to the National Press Club. Snippets because I would switch back to TV when the commercials were over or... Well, for instance (I paraphrase): "I want to start with a story... Why did the Titanic fail to hear all the warnings about ice fields at their latitude? Why did other ships fail to hear their distress calls? Because the radio telegraph business was run *as* a business in those days. No one was required to be listening<click>" I know I should have let Star Trek tape and kept listening to this Guy; I just wimped. Maybe he somehow completed his thought reasonably. I hope things work out. Gore and policy wonks and industry reps have all said good things, but also all those great short turning radius waffle words. Brad comments: > It's like listening to the raindrops at the start of a storm. Like watchin' 'em spray the primer. -fnerd quote me - - cryptocosmology- sufficiently advanced communication is indistinguishable from noise -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a aKxB8nktcBAeQHabQP/d7yhWgpGZBIoIqII8cY9nG55HYHgvt3niQCVAgUBLMs3K ui6XaCZmKH68fOWYYySKAzPkXyfYKnOlzsIjp2tPEot1Q5A3/n54PBKrUDN9tHVz 3Ch466q9EKUuDulTU6OLsilzmRvQJn0EJhzd4pht6hSnC1R3seYNhUYhoJViCcCG sRjLQs4iVVM= =9wqs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: io.com
by fnerd＠smds.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Ferguson <ferguson(a)icp.net> fwds from Bruce Sterling <bruces(a)well.sf.ca.us> who says- > ...And Steve Jackson, rather than owning the > single-line bulletin board system "Illuminati" seized in > 1990, now rejoices in possession of a huge privately-owned > Internet node, "io.com," with dozens of phone-lines on its own T-1 > trunk. Oh, I...was confusing IO with EO. Can someone say more about what io.com does and how Steve Jackson got to this point? -fnerd quote me - - cryptocosmology- sufficiently advanced communication is indistinguishable from noise -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a aKxB8nktcBAeQHabQP/d7yhWgpGZBIoIqII8cY9nG55HYHgvt3niQCVAgUBLMs3K ui6XaCZmKH68fOWYYySKAzPkXyfYKnOlzsIjp2tPEot1Q5A3/n54PBKrUDN9tHVz 3Ch466q9EKUuDulTU6OLsilzmRvQJn0EJhzd4pht6hSnC1R3seYNhUYhoJViCcCG sRjLQs4iVVM= =9wqs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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A real flamewar...
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If you think the Detweiler thread is bad...take a look at "IRC: Who's harassing who?" on alt.best.of.internet, among several other groups. There's over 200K of an absolutely hilarious netwar there, which began as an argument on IRC and ended up with death threats, threats of lawsuits, mail to sysadmins...

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ANNOUNCEMENT: January cypherpunks meeting is non-standard
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ANNOUNCEMENT ============ The January 1994 Bar Area cypherpunks meeting will not be the second Saturday of the month, but rather the third. Usenix is in San Francisco the following week, and it was decided at our last meeting to make it easier for some Usenix folk to attend. We also decided to give each meeting a theme in order to better focus discussion. When: Saturday, January 15, 1994 12:00 noon - 6:00 p.m. Where: Cygnus Support offices, Mt. View, CA Theme: Software Infrastructure for Cryptography The lack of a unified software architecture is a major obstacle to widespread deployment of cryptography. Existing approaches have been primarily for specific purposes or applications. We'll talk about infrastructure issues, technical, social, and political. We'll review existing work at the system level (cfs, swipe) and at the application level (pgp, pem). If you have a specific presentation, please send me some email (hughes(a)ah.com) and I'll schedule you in. [Directions to Cygnus provided by John Gilmore. -- EH] Cygnus Support 1937 Landings Drive Mt. View, CA 94043 +1 415 903 1400 switchboard +1 415 903 1418 John Gilmore Take US 101 toward Mt. View. From San Francisco, it's about a 40-minute drive. Get off at the Rengstorff Ave/Amphitheatre Parkway exit. If you were heading south on 101, you curve around to the right, cross over the freeway, and get to a stoplight. If you were heading north on 101, you just come right off the exit to the stoplight. The light is the intersection of Amphitheatre and Charleston Rd. Take a right on Charleston; there's a right-turn-only lane. Follow Charleston for a short distance. You'll pass the Metaphor/Kaleida buildings on the right. At a clump of palm trees and a "Landmark Deli" sign, take a right into Landings Drive. At the end of the road, turn left into the complex with the big concrete "Landmark" sign. Follow the road past the deli til you are in front of the clock tower that rises out of one of the buildings, facing you. Enter through the doors immediately under the clock tower. They'll be open between noon and 1PM at least. (See below if you're late.) Once inside, take the stairs up, immediately to your right. At the top of the stairs, turn right past the treetops, and we'll be in 1937 on your left. The door is marked "Cygnus". If you are late and the door under the clock tower is locked, you can walk to the deli (which will be around the building on your left, as you face the door). Go through the gate in the fence to the right of the deli, and into the back lawns between the complex and the farm behind it. Walk forward and right around the buildings until you see a satellite dish in the lawn. Go up the stairs next to the dish, which are the back stairs into the Cygnus office space. We'll prop the door (or you can bang on it if we forget). Or, you can find the guard who's wandering around the complex, who knows there's a meeting happening and will let you in. They can be beeped at 965 5250, though you'll have trouble finding a phone. Don't forget to eat first, or bring food at noon! I recommend hitting the burrito place on Rengstorff (La Costen~a) at about 11:45. To get there, when you get off 101, take Rengstorff (toward the hills) rather than Amphitheatre (toward the bay). Follow it about ten blocks until the major intersection at Middlefield Road. La Costen~a is the store on your left at the corner. You can turn left into the narrow lane behind the store, which leads to a parking lot, and enter by the front door, which faces the intersection. To get to the meeting from there, just retrace your route on Rengstorff, go straight over the freeway, and turn right at the stoplight onto Charleston; see above. See you there! John Gilmore

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Humor!
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

sorry, folks. just couldn`t pass up the chance tp pass this along. - ---- From: strnlght(a)netcom.com Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk Subject: (none) Date: 4 Jan 94 02:41:56 GMT __________________ ---- | | |-\_ ----- | | | |_\ \ O / <---Me ---- | |_| | | ^^oo^^^^^^^^^oo^^^ o^^o^ _/ \_ -- David Sternlight When the mouse laughs at the cat, there is a hole nearby.--Nigerian Proverb

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